All 2018 iPhones likely to adopt Face ID biometrics, TrueDepth camera if consumer response...

Posted:
in iPhone edited September 2017
With the launch of Face ID on iPhone X, and the subsequent removal of Touch ID, users are wondering whether Apple's legacy fingerprint biometric solution is dead in the water. According to one analyst, that answer depends as much on the public reception of the new facial recognition system as it does technical hurdles involving an under-screen Touch ID system.




KGI analyst Ming-Chi Kuo in a note to investors seen by AppleInsider says Apple is likely to ditch Touch ID altogether, so long as Face ID presents a positive experience for consumers.

"In our view, TrueDepth camera could create many innovative applications, Face ID being the most important of them," Kuo writes. "If Face ID is well received by consumers after the launch of iPhone X, we believe it is more likely that 2018 all-new models will adopt TrueDepth camera and support Face ID."

While iPhone X has yet to make its way into the hot hands of eager early adopters, Face ID is already catching flak by the media.

During Apple's first public demonstration of iPhone X last Tuesday, executive Craig Federighi was forced to move to a backup model after a first unit seemingly failed to unlock as planned. After looking at the device's TrueDepth camera and swiping up, both requirements for Apple's face-based authentication method, Federighi was met with an onscreen alert saying "Your passcode is required to enable Face ID." As a result, some in the media -- gleefully -- reported the incident as Face ID's first failure.

Apple quickly responded to those claims, saying in a statement that employees inadvertently triggered Face ID during pre-show setup. Due to repeated failed attempts, the iPhone X in question defaulted to passcode, as per Apple's security protocol.

Federighi himself addressed the onstage gaffe in a wide-roving interview last week.

Public perception is one of two key factors presented by Kuo, the other being technical issues Apple must address in creating a Touch ID system capable of working beneath an iPhone or iPad's display. The company was rumored to be developing sub-display fingerprint recognition systems for iPhone X, but hit snags along the way.

Industry rumblings as late as this summer suggested Apple was grappling with a decision to nix Touch ID on iPhone X just months before the handset's unveiling. A report last week, however, refutes those claims, saying the company had been developing Face ID as a complete Touch ID replacement for more than a year.

As noted by Kuo in today's note, Apple is in a uniquely difficult position when it comes to embedding fingerprint reader technology in its handset display stack. Modern iPhones feature 3D Touch technology, current iterations of which integrate a rigid metal conductive plate as part of a layered sensor design. The sandwich of internal structures is not conducive for fingerprint scanning, at least not with state-of-the-art technology.

While other smartphone manufacturers might be able to readily integrate an embedded fingerprint biometric solution in their products, Apple must find a way to make similar technology work through the 3D Touch stack. Earlier this year, Kuo predicted Apple would adopt a new thin film sensor for its OLED iPhone, potentially opening the door to an integrated Touch ID module. Whether that technology made its way into iPhone X is at this point unknown.

Even if the company decides to maintain Touch ID on certain models, Kuo believes the under-screen solution would only be adapted to devices with high screen-to-body ratios. The iPhone X form factor, for example, would be a prime candidate for inclusion.

"If Face ID fails to impress consumers, Apple may turn its focus to the development of under-display solution," Kuo says. "However, even if that happens, Apple will still have to find ways to overcome the aforementioned technical issue."

Kuo sees Apple's push toward Face ID driving adoption of similar technology by Android handset makers, in which case component suppliers associated with facial recognition systems will see a high-growth period for the next three to five years.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 68
    What about Mac's?
    Looks like it would be great for multi-user devices, which should include iPads.
    Scot1RacerhomieX
  • Reply 2 of 68
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
  • Reply 3 of 68
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    You’re not ann old fart - just an ignorant one.  There is no “database” for Face ID, much less a global one.  Just like Touch ID, a mathematical representation of your face is kept on the secure enclave on the phone.  That’s it.  Stop spreading ignorant FUD.  Or are you a politician?  In that case, you’re just acting as expected (this was a reference to an equally ignorant senator asking Apple similar questions, making it clear that neither he - nor you - have bothered to watch/read about it first)
    tmaycaliJinTechnetroxsennenStrangeDayspscooter63longpathScot1mwhite
  • Reply 4 of 68
    It depends whether you believe what Apple said or not. Apple has already explained that no user data is stored but only one inside the secure enclave (which is also used for neural training) that is not even accessible to Apple. From security point of view, that is nothing more secure than that. Now, it's up to you to believe Apple or not, the ball is on you. I personally think what they said makes sense, and there is no reason not to believe Apple.
    Scot1mwhiteRacerhomieXjony0
  • Reply 5 of 68
    tjwolf said:
    Or are you a politician?  In that case, you’re just acting as expected (this was a reference to an equally ignorant senator asking Apple similar questions, making it clear that neither he - nor you - have bothered to watch/read about it first)
    At least in the case of Sen Franken, he has a constituency to represent of which some might not bother to learn about the securities of the safe enclave in each iPhone Apple uses to protect Touch ID/Face ID information. 

    If if you’re an individual posting FUD online, that’s just being willfully ignorant. 
    StrangeDaysjony0
  • Reply 6 of 68
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    When a FaceID or TouchID is taken, it is saved into a set of complex numbers which cannot be reverse engineered at all. It has NO idea what you look like or what your fingerprint looks like. It is mathematically impossible. When it gets your picture of your face again, it converts the same thing to a set of hashes and compares them against previously hashed information and decides if it's close enough that it can safely unlock for you.
    pscooter63longpath
  • Reply 7 of 68
    Face ID may come to all models next year but not to justify Kuo’s Samsung promotion. It may come to all Touch ID models not to replace Touch ID but to complement it. As Federighi pointed out according to MacRumors:
    "He confirmed that Apple believes Face ID is the future of biometric authentication, with the caveat that there are settings where different biometric techniques or combinations of biometrics could make sense.

    https://www.macrumors.com/2017/09/15/craig-federighi-addresses-face-id-concerns/
    edited September 2017 anomeRacerhomieX
  • Reply 8 of 68
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    Privacy and individuality are largely a thing of the past. "Social" media / tech hv brought on a paradigm so shift so quickly and so thoroughly, most people have yet to comprehend that it's happened.  
  • Reply 9 of 68
    tjwolf said:
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    You’re not ann old fart - just an ignorant one.  There is no “database” for Face ID, much less a global one.  Just like Touch ID, a mathematical representation of your face is kept on the secure enclave on the phone.  That’s it.  Stop spreading ignorant FUD.  Or are you a politician?  In that case, you’re just acting as expected (this was a reference to an equally ignorant senator asking Apple similar questions, making it clear that neither he - nor you - have bothered to watch/read about it first)
    I'm happy to be called ignorant when I am.

    My point was that TouchID is local, here, with my finger, secure enclave - but do you believe that nothing is sent to the iCloud in this interaction?  If my TouchID is sent to the iCloud then someone has to get my finger before they do harm.  If anything is sent to iCloud regarding my face, then all bets are off - it's a prudent policy to think that anything you send over the net (phone, text, email . . .) will be intercepted and catalogued.

    Like I said, I'm happy to be called ignorant, so just try to enlighten me rather than getting into all the ad hominem wanking (FUD. politician, blah, blah) nonsence.

    Talk to me.
    anantksundaram
  • Reply 10 of 68
    sumergo said:
    tjwolf said:
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    You’re not ann old fart - just an ignorant one.  There is no “database” for Face ID, much less a global one.  Just like Touch ID, a mathematical representation of your face is kept on the secure enclave on the phone.  That’s it.  Stop spreading ignorant FUD.  Or are you a politician?  In that case, you’re just acting as expected (this was a reference to an equally ignorant senator asking Apple similar questions, making it clear that neither he - nor you - have bothered to watch/read about it first)
    I'm happy to be called ignorant when I am.

    My point was that TouchID is local, here, with my finger, secure enclave - but do you believe that nothing is sent to the iCloud in this interaction?  If my TouchID is sent to the iCloud then someone has to get my finger before they do harm.  If anything is sent to iCloud regarding my face, then all bets are off - it's a prudent policy to think that anything you send over the net (phone, text, email . . .) will be intercepted and catalogued.

    Like I said, I'm happy to be called ignorant, so just try to enlighten me rather than getting into all the ad hominem wanking (FUD. politician, blah, blah) nonsence.

    Talk to me.
    Even if the information get sent to iCloud, they still have no idea what you look like or your fingerprint look like. It's all garbled. They cannot reconstruct at all.
  • Reply 11 of 68
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    Privacy and individuality are largely a thing of the past. "Social" media / tech hv brought on a paradigm so shift so quickly and so thoroughly, most people have yet to comprehend that it's happened.  
    So true.  Check out:
    http://www.npr.org/2017/09/13/548662507/world-without-mind-is-an-urgent-personal-polemic
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-perspec-iphone-x-unabomber-technology-20170913-story.html

    We are the wrong species.  250,000 year old, hunter-gatherer brains, grappling with nuclear technology & always-on, instant communications.  It must be clear that we don't see to be able to handle this complexity ;-(
    theothergeoffboogerman2000
  • Reply 12 of 68
    netrox said:
    sumergo said:
    tjwolf said:
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    You’re not ann old fart - just an ignorant one.  There is no “database” for Face ID, much less a global one.  Just like Touch ID, a mathematical representation of your face is kept on the secure enclave on the phone.  That’s it.  Stop spreading ignorant FUD.  Or are you a politician?  In that case, you’re just acting as expected (this was a reference to an equally ignorant senator asking Apple similar questions, making it clear that neither he - nor you - have bothered to watch/read about it first)
    I'm happy to be called ignorant when I am.

    My point was that TouchID is local, here, with my finger, secure enclave - but do you believe that nothing is sent to the iCloud in this interaction?  If my TouchID is sent to the iCloud then someone has to get my finger before they do harm.  If anything is sent to iCloud regarding my face, then all bets are off - it's a prudent policy to think that anything you send over the net (phone, text, email . . .) will be intercepted and catalogued.

    Like I said, I'm happy to be called ignorant, so just try to enlighten me rather than getting into all the ad hominem wanking (FUD. politician, blah, blah) nonsence.

    Talk to me.
    Even if the information get sent to iCloud, they still have no idea what you look like or your fingerprint look like. It's all garbled. They cannot reconstruct at all.
    I'd love to believe you, but can you be sure that NSA and all the other owners of super-computers and advance deep-learning AI can't figure it out?
  • Reply 13 of 68
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    No, your problem is you don't know what you're talking about and are thus spreading FUD needlessly. 

    Just as with Touch ID, Face ID's numerical hash of your face stays locally on the device in the secure enclave and is never uploaded and cannot be used to create your face.
    pscooter63
  • Reply 14 of 68
    netrox said:
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    When a FaceID or TouchID is taken, it is saved into a set of complex numbers which cannot be reverse engineered at all. It has NO idea what you look like or what your fingerprint looks like. It is mathematically impossible. When it gets your picture of your face again, it converts the same thing to a set of hashes and compares them against previously hashed information and decides if it's close enough that it can safely unlock for you.
    The keyword here is “close enough”. If Face ID relies on the “cognitive capabilities” of machine learning to determine that “closeness”, there may always exist some margin of error and it may happen that it does not recognize even the registered face of the true owner. If it always recognizes then it may be working with a large tolerance which may end up with being spoofed. The big difference between a face and fingerprint is that a face evolves, but a fingerprint remains constant the whole life of the person. I intuitively feel that a constant fingerprint pattern may be much easily and accurately modeled than an evolving face. How would you hash an evolving face? OK the location of the eyes, nose and mouth may remain constant but are these enough to develop an accurate and unique model of the face to be used as an encryption key? There are too many unknowns. I hope the white paper Apple is said preparing brings some answers to these unknowns.
    edited September 2017
  • Reply 15 of 68

    sumergo said:
    tjwolf said:
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    You’re not ann old fart - just an ignorant one.  There is no “database” for Face ID, much less a global one.  Just like Touch ID, a mathematical representation of your face is kept on the secure enclave on the phone.  That’s it.  Stop spreading ignorant FUD.  Or are you a politician?  In that case, you’re just acting as expected (this was a reference to an equally ignorant senator asking Apple similar questions, making it clear that neither he - nor you - have bothered to watch/read about it first)
    I'm happy to be called ignorant when I am.

    My point was that TouchID is local, here, with my finger, secure enclave - but do you believe that nothing is sent to the iCloud in this interaction?  If my TouchID is sent to the iCloud then someone has to get my finger before they do harm.  If anything is sent to iCloud regarding my face, then all bets are off - it's a prudent policy to think that anything you send over the net (phone, text, email . . .) will be intercepted and catalogued.

    Like I said, I'm happy to be called ignorant, so just try to enlighten me rather than getting into all the ad hominem wanking (FUD. politician, blah, blah) nonsence.

    Talk to me.
    It's not an ad hominem to say you're spreading FUD. You are spreading FUD. And even when someone educates you with the details, you still pretend there is something different about Face ID than Touch ID. As he said, there isn't. It operates in exactly the same fashion as Touch ID.
    pscooter63
  • Reply 16 of 68
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    Let's be realistic,  people's faces are probably already in a global data base. 
    radarthekat
  • Reply 17 of 68
    netrox said:
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    When a FaceID or TouchID is taken, it is saved into a set of complex numbers which cannot be reverse engineered at all. It has NO idea what you look like or what your fingerprint looks like. It is mathematically impossible. When it gets your picture of your face again, it converts the same thing to a set of hashes and compares them against previously hashed information and decides if it's close enough that it can safely unlock for you.
    The keyword here is “close enough”. If Face ID relies on the “cognitive capabilities” of machine learning to determine that “closeness”, there may always exist some margin of error and it may happen that it does not recognize even the registered face of the true owner. If it always recognizes then it may be working with a large tolerance which may end up with being spoofed. The big difference between a face and fingerprint is that a face evolves, but a fingerprint remains constant the whole life of the person. I intuitively feel that a constant fingerprint pattern may be much easily and accurately modeled than an evolving face. How would you hash an evolving face? OK the location of the eyes, nose and mouth may remain constant but are these enough to develop an accurate and unique model of the face to be used as an encryption key? There are too many unknowns. I hope the white paper Apple is said preparing bring some answers to these unknowns.
    There aren't "too many unknowns" -- otherwise they wouldn't have figured it out. But they did. You personally don't have to understand the code that does the job. Even if they were to tell you a high level summary (as Craig as done in the interviews) you still don't have access to or the ability to understand the implementation in the silicone unless you work with this stuff. 

    Your panic is the exact same panic people had over Touch ID. It's basically a panic over change, uncertainty, the unknown, etc. It has nothing to do with the reality of what is coded in Cupertino. Problem is the wetware, not the software.
    radarthekat
  • Reply 18 of 68

    tshapi said:
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    Let's be realistic,  people's faces are probably already in a global data base. 
    What global database? Be specific. Otherwise....FUD.
  • Reply 19 of 68
    tshapi said:
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    Let's be realistic,  people's faces are probably already in a global data base. 
    We have worse problem with Facebook than FaceID, not that FaceID is a problem at all. People are happily to share their faces online but unhappy with having them secured and locked in their phones. Ironic, isn't it?
    radarthekatMplsPbrucemc
  • Reply 20 of 68
    sumergo said:
    sumergo said:
    My problem with FaceID is that it further degrades our individual privacy and makes us more vulnerable to both over-officious government and predatory marketing.

    TouchID is my physical finger on this phone.  FaceID is my face on a potentially global database.  Coming from the UK, one of the most surveilled societies in the western world, I find this worrying.

    I'm not interested in being reduced to a target for near-field / face-recognition ads or constant surveilance.

    An old fart?  For sure - I actually like being an individual.
    Privacy and individuality are largely a thing of the past. "Social" media / tech hv brought on a paradigm so shift so quickly and so thoroughly, most people have yet to comprehend that it's happened.  
    So true.  Check out:
    http://www.npr.org/2017/09/13/548662507/world-without-mind-is-an-urgent-personal-polemic
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-perspec-iphone-x-unabomber-technology-20170913-story.html

    We are the wrong species.  250,000 year old, hunter-gatherer brains, grappling with nuclear technology & always-on, instant communications.  It must be clear that we don't see to be able to handle this complexity ;-(
    This isn't some 'new problem.'  Scott McNealey (sun microsystems) said it in 1999... "Consumer privacy issues are a “red herring.  You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it.” 

    sumergo:

    You're not old, you believe in a fantasy.  

    you stopped being an individual once you took on a last name, a voting card, or passport.  You are part of an economic system.  You have hundreds of identities. and your image is not some secret, let alone whether or not FaceID data can be reconstructed to identify 'you'.    FaceID doesn't degrade our individual privacy no more than walking outside, and arguably less so.  
    (I posit that your understanding of FaceID is less than complete, and based on the premise you have that Apple's secure enclave isn't secure)

    Your iPhone does compromise your identity (not your individuality).
    The existence of your AppleID degrades your individual privacy, not FaceID
    Your IPaddress (yes, for the most part with IPV6, your carrier locks you down to an identifiable ID for your device) does as well. 

    and your carrier does as well.

    You should be more worried about your android/dumb/apple phones IPV6... it leaks more  information about you due to how carriers set you up than FaceID leaked the one way hash of your mathematical mappings of your face.   I spoke with ATT, and they are not far getting to the point that they can tell if it's you based on the GPS data they can gather ("...we've got his IPV6 signal... and GPS feedback... It's him, not his wife... he typically carries his phone 1.1 meters off the ground and walks at 3m/second, with a 7cm bounce, all parameters meet his biometric profile").  [yes...  the downside of Gbps LTE is they get telemetry continually, and triangulation is part of the managing performance]

    In the US, ATT and NSA are pretty much joined at the [GB optical] hip when it comes to data collection. FaceID ain't gonna improve that.

    Best be up in a cabin in the mountains in montana, wearing a hoodie and carving exquisite wooden boxes [preferably without the 'surprise'], if you want 'individual privacy'
    edited September 2017 radarthekat
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