Watch: Why Apple TV 4K can't play 4K YouTube videos

AppleInsiderAppleInsider
Posted:
in iPod + iTunes + AppleTV edited September 2017
Apple TV 4K promises users the ability to view 4K HDR content from a wide range of sources, including Netflix and Apple's own iTunes Store. However, the streamer is incompatible with one of the world's largest repositories of free 4K content: YouTube. We explain why.








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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 49
    jameskatt2jameskatt2 Posts: 720member
    This is ENTIRELY GOOGLE's fault.

    1) If they want their YouTube App to run V9 video's (Google's proprietary format) then they should re-write the YouTube App to play V9 videos. The YouTube app is Google's app, not Apple's. 

    2) Otherwise, Google should stop blocking access to 4K MP4 Videos on Apple TV.  MP4 is THE STANDARD for video.

    BLAME Google for lack of 4K Videos on YouTube for Apple TV.
    macseekermagman1979macpluspluspujones1chiaericthehalfbeepscooter63RacerhomieXtmayAvieshek
  • Reply 2 of 49
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    jameskatt2 said:
    This is ENTIRELY GOOGLE's fault.

    1) If they want their YouTube App to run V9 video's (Google's proprietary format) then they should re-write the YouTube App to play V9 videos. The YouTube app is Google's app, not Apple's. 

    2) Otherwise, Google should stop blocking access to 4K MP4 Videos on Apple TV.  MP4 is THE STANDARD for video.

    BLAME Google for lack of 4K Videos on YouTube for Apple TV.
    I do blame Google for this but can they just include the VP9 codec in the app? I'm under the impression that this isn't allowed with Apple's App Store rules.
    gatorguycali
  • Reply 3 of 49
    ericthehalfbeeericthehalfbee Posts: 4,486member
    Google will come around. iOS is the most profitable mobile platform and they’re not going to ignore it. 
    magman1979tmayAvieshekargonautfreediverxcali
  • Reply 4 of 49
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    ericthehalfbee said:
    Google will come around. iOS is the most profitable mobile platform and they’re not going to ignore it. 
    I hope you're right but I'm not convinced since they're not dropping support for their content, just for the highest resolution option.
  • Reply 5 of 49
    jameskatt2jameskatt2 Posts: 720member
    Soli said:
    jameskatt2 said:
    This is ENTIRELY GOOGLE's fault.

    1) If they want their YouTube App to run V9 video's (Google's proprietary format) then they should re-write the YouTube App to play V9 videos. The YouTube app is Google's app, not Apple's. 

    2) Otherwise, Google should stop blocking access to 4K MP4 Videos on Apple TV.  MP4 is THE STANDARD for video.

    BLAME Google for lack of 4K Videos on YouTube for Apple TV.
    I do blame Google for this but can they just include the VP9 codec in the app? I'm under the impression that this isn't allowed with Apple's App Store rules.

    There is nothing stopping Google from including the VP9 codec in the app.  

    Skype uses a proprietary Microsoft codec for streaming.
    NetFlix uses its own codec.
    SlingBox uses its own codec.
    Plex uses its own codec.

    Google is simply trying to hardball Apple into using Google's VP9 codec in Safari. 

    Apple will never do this since VP9 is proprietary. MP4 is the standard.

    MP4 does require licensing fees - which Google is being cheap about and does not want to pay despite billions in profits.


    jbdragonMacProchiaRacerhomieXtmayScot1Avieshekargonaut2old4funcali
  • Reply 6 of 49
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    This is ENTIRELY GOOGLE's fault.

    1) If they want their YouTube App to run V9 video's (Google's proprietary format) then they should re-write the YouTube App to play V9 videos. The YouTube app is Google's app, not Apple's. 

    2) Otherwise, Google should stop blocking access to 4K MP4 Videos on Apple TV.  MP4 is THE STANDARD for video.

    BLAME Google for lack of 4K Videos on YouTube for Apple TV.
    Yep, it is google's fault but I trying to think which 4K content on YouTube I care about.  But the converse is also true.  Unless aTV sales explode, Google can ignore that aTV doesn't support VP9.  They aren't dumb enough to remove access to youtube from iPhone and iPad users.

    At least no one in this thread is claiming that older movies can't be 4K.  If Google suddenly acquired a large back catalog of classic films remastered in 4K for paid YouTube I'd have to care about YouTube as a source for 4K material. But that's real unlikely given that Google is pulling the plug on paid youtube content in December.

    https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7515570?hl=en


    Avieshekargonaut
  • Reply 7 of 49
    bigmushroombigmushroom Posts: 87member
    Soli said:
    This is ENTIRELY GOOGLE's fault.

    1) If they want their YouTube App to run V9 video's (Google's proprietary format) then they should re-write the YouTube App to play V9 videos. The YouTube app is Google's app, not Apple's. 

    2) Otherwise, Google should stop blocking access to 4K MP4 Videos on Apple TV.  MP4 is THE STANDARD for video.

    BLAME Google for lack of 4K Videos on YouTube for Apple TV.
    I do blame Google for this but can they just include the VP9 codec in the app? I'm under the impression that this isn't allowed with Apple's App Store rules.

    There is nothing stopping Google from including the VP9 codec in the app.  

    Skype uses a proprietary Microsoft codec for streaming.
    NetFlix uses its own codec.
    SlingBox uses its own codec.
    Plex uses its own codec.

    Google is simply trying to hardball Apple into using Google's VP9 codec in Safari. 

    Apple will never do this since VP9 is proprietary. MP4 is the standard.

    MP4 does require licensing fees - which Google is being cheap about and does not want to pay despite billions in profits.


    MP4 is a container format - not a codec.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_14

    Netflix  and others don't use their own codecs - they use H.264, HEVC and VP9 (Netflix uses all 3, for example).

    Not sure, what you mean with VP9 being proprietary - it's open sourced with a waver on all patent claims. However, it's not an ITU standard such as HEVC.
    SoliAvieshekargonautfreediverxdoozydozensuperkloton
  • Reply 8 of 49
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,311member
    nht said:
    This is ENTIRELY GOOGLE's fault.

    1) If they want their YouTube App to run V9 video's (Google's proprietary format) then they should re-write the YouTube App to play V9 videos. The YouTube app is Google's app, not Apple's. 

    2) Otherwise, Google should stop blocking access to 4K MP4 Videos on Apple TV.  MP4 is THE STANDARD for video.

    BLAME Google for lack of 4K Videos on YouTube for Apple TV.
    Yep, it is google's fault but I trying to think which 4K content on YouTube I care about.  But the converse is also true.  Unless aTV sales explode, Google can ignore that aTV doesn't support VP9.  They aren't dumb enough to remove access to youtube from iPhone and iPad users.

    At least no one in this thread is claiming that older movies can't be 4K.  If Google suddenly acquired a large back catalog of classic films remastered in 4K for paid YouTube I'd have to care about YouTube as a source for 4K material. But that's real unlikely given that Google is pulling the plug on paid youtube content in December.

    https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7515570?hl=en


    Who said older movies couldn't be 4K?. I really hate it when people throw out dumb blanket statements like that!.   It all depends how it was originally recorded.  Real film is in a higher resolution, so going 4k is simple enough.  Of course the audio is going to be lower quality.  Depending on how old from mono to stereo.  Sometimes then can get some 5.1 out of a stereo source.  If it's from tv in say SD format, recorded on betamax or something, you can't make it HD, let alone 4K.

    There's also a factor on how it's converted to 4K and if any care went into it, or if it was just dumped.  Real film movies need real work to restore them to look like they originally looked back in the day.  This was a problem early on with BluRay movies not looking much better then a DVD.  They were just getting dumped into the new format.  There was this big deal about the James Bond movies, where even the DVD's were not the best quality, and all the work it went into to make them look like new for the Blu-Ray release.  It's was a day and night difference.

    So what road is Google taking? 
    Scot1cali
  • Reply 9 of 49
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,727member
    Rest easy, Gatorguy will soon explain, with numerous links, why this is all good and Google are right and Apple are wrong.  He's just waiting for the data from Mountain View to arrive.
    pscooter63lostkiwiRacerhomieXargonautfreediverxRayz2016lkruppStrangeDayscali
  • Reply 10 of 49
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    Soli said:
    This is ENTIRELY GOOGLE's fault.

    1) If they want their YouTube App to run V9 video's (Google's proprietary format) then they should re-write the YouTube App to play V9 videos. The YouTube app is Google's app, not Apple's. 

    2) Otherwise, Google should stop blocking access to 4K MP4 Videos on Apple TV.  MP4 is THE STANDARD for video.

    BLAME Google for lack of 4K Videos on YouTube for Apple TV.
    I do blame Google for this but can they just include the VP9 codec in the app? I'm under the impression that this isn't allowed with Apple's App Store rules.
    There is nothing stopping Google from including the VP9 codec in the app.  

    Skype uses a proprietary Microsoft codec for streaming.
    NetFlix uses its own codec.
    SlingBox uses its own codec.
    Plex uses its own codec.

    Google is simply trying to hardball Apple into using Google's VP9 codec in Safari. 

    Apple will never do this since VP9 is proprietary. MP4 is the standard.

    MP4 does require licensing fees - which Google is being cheap about and does not want to pay despite billions in profits.
    1) What are these 'its own codec's that you reference? I'm not aware of any proprietary codecs used by any of those services. They all work with common codecs for their various platforms.

    2) When you reference the MP4 container when talking about codecs I'm not sure we're having the same discussion. Isn't WebM the container for VP* which is based on the Matroska (MKV) multimedia container?
  • Reply 11 of 49
    pscooter63pscooter63 Posts: 1,080member
    MacPro said:
    Rest easy, Gatorguy will soon explain, with numerous links, why this is all good and Google are right and Apple are wrong.  He's just waiting for the data from Mountain View to arrive.
    No, no, no... Google isn't always right, but they always have the best intentions... pure as the driven snow!
    (Am I doing this right?)
    edited September 2017 tmaylostkiwiStrangeDayscali
  • Reply 12 of 49
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    You needed to create an article to say that the AppleTV 4K doesn't include the WebM VP9 decode codec? Here's a list of hurdles [devices] that lack encoding support for VP9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VP9#Hardware_implementations Apple will consent when it sees industry wide consent.
    edited September 2017
  • Reply 13 of 49
    abhibeckertabhibeckert Posts: 2member

    Not sure, what you mean with VP9 being proprietary - it's open sourced with a waver on all patent claims. However, it's not an ITU standard such as HEVC.
    VP9 was developed by Google exclusively, unlike HEVC which was developed by the the United Nations. The ITU is responsible for other technology you may have heard of such as JPEG and MP3, or and others you're using but may not be familiar like our telephone and broadband network protocols.

    Google's waiver on patent claims is only available for companies that "do not engage in patent litigation" which means any large tech corporation will have to negotiate a patent license off Google to use VP9. They are not eligible for the waiver. And there are probably dozens of patent trolls who own patents that might apply to VP9.

    But the real reason, in my opinion, is that hardware decoding for VP9 isn't widely available, and since the Apple TV is designed to draw about 2 Watts of power while streaming a video, software decoding simply isn't possible. I wouldn't be surprised if a desktop PC processor draws 100 watts or more while playing a 4K VP9 video.

    The Apple TV processor is probably fast enough to decode VP9 for a short video, but I think an hour or more is likely to cause overheating issues since it doesn't have any fans.
    edited September 2017 SolibloggerblogStrangeDays
  • Reply 14 of 49
    jimcordjimcord Posts: 31member
    I’m curious why Apple customers who live in Apples walled garden and protect that garden to the ends of the earth, why they would be upset with Google for protecting their walled garden other than they just want to get their way and that all companies should give in to Apple?. There are three competing ecosystems with Amazon, Apple, and Google, none of them are going to budge to help one another out at any cost. I’m so tired of hearing everyone use iOS and it’s customer base  as a bargaining chip when the android bargaining chip is bigger, they have more customers and they primarily use Google services. I as an Apple customer am personally becoming really tired of this Apple and it’s closed system(look what it has done to Siri!), Apple TV is just another tool to keep using and purchasing apple purchased movies, they could care less if you watch youtube, that’s your concern, not theirs.  I am sure googles going to do just fine with their profits through YouTube if they are not able to be used on Apple TV .
    cropryojimbo007
  • Reply 15 of 49
    speedlimiterspeedlimiter Posts: 3member
    I don’t know where this myth is coming from, that Apple needs the VP9 codec. Google serves their 4K Videos in a second format, which the iOS/ tvOS plattform is capable of. 

    The now defunct ProTube for iOS plays 4K YouTube. And this is what the developer says. 

    https://twitter.com/ProTube4iOS/status/911322672281407488
    StrangeDayscali
  • Reply 16 of 49
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    jimcord said:
    I’m curious why Apple customers who live in Apples walled garden and protect that garden to the ends of the earth, why they would be upset with Google for protecting their walled garden other than they just want to get their way and that all companies should give in to Apple?. There are three competing ecosystems with Amazon, Apple, and Google, none of them are going to budge to help one another out at any cost. I’m so tired of hearing everyone use iOS and it’s customer base  as a bargaining chip when the android bargaining chip is bigger, they have more customers and they primarily use Google services. I as an Apple customer am personally becoming really tired of this Apple and it’s closed system(look what it has done to Siri!), Apple TV is just another tool to keep using and purchasing apple purchased movies, they could care less if you watch youtube, that’s your concern, not theirs.  I am sure googles going to do just fine with their profits through YouTube if they are not able to be used on Apple TV .
    Considering that Apple clients are probably worth 3 android clients for their advertising revenues and google pays a bundle to access those clients on the iPhone I’d say you are wrong

    google does care and if apple played hardball they would suffer

    anyone with so few posts coming here to tell us we shouldn’t  care (so,  why are you bothered by our. Bother...) is playing for irony or is oblivious to their own words.


    edited September 2017 macseekercali
  • Reply 17 of 49
    palegolaspalegolas Posts: 1,361member
    Google's "sanctions" towards Apple..   :/

    In Safari I can understand the grudge. Google is probably just trying to save money on licensing. I haven't got a clue of the magnitude of licensing fees for the world's largest video service.. It's probably massive.

    But on Apple TV it doesn't make any sense. They should've included the codec a long time ago. If they think it's a superior format, it would make sense to include it everywhere possible.
  • Reply 18 of 49
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,112member
    I don’t know where this myth is coming from, that Apple needs the VP9 codec. Google serves their 4K Videos in a second format, which the iOS/ tvOS plattform is capable of. 

    The now defunct ProTube for iOS plays 4K YouTube. And this is what the developer says. 

    https://twitter.com/ProTube4iOS/status/911322672281407488
    OK but are both formats 4K? VP9 may be 4K but H.264 may be 1080p. Anyway, since a developer speaks so strictly...

    edited September 2017
  • Reply 19 of 49
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,423member
    No, it's up to Google to support H.265 on YouTube. It is the superior and most widely-supported 4K video codec. Apple is under no obligation to waste valuable resources and muck up its platform just to support Google's bottom-feeder business model which depends on advertising and harvesting users' personal data.

    Posts like this are particularly annoying considering that this is a repeat of what we saw with H.264 and VP8 years ago. 
    edited September 2017 tmayStrangeDays
  • Reply 20 of 49
    freediverxfreediverx Posts: 1,423member
    jameskatt2 said:
    This is ENTIRELY GOOGLE's fault.

    1) If they want their YouTube App to run V9 video's (Google's proprietary format) then they should re-write the YouTube App to play V9 videos. The YouTube app is Google's app, not Apple's. 

    2) Otherwise, Google should stop blocking access to 4K MP4 Videos on Apple TV.  MP4 is THE STANDARD for video.

    BLAME Google for lack of 4K Videos on YouTube for Apple TV.

    Google doesn't need to "re-write" the YouTube app. They've long had the capability to support H.265, but flipped the switch and cut off support for it in order to avoid paying licensing fees. This has nothing to do with development effort and everything to do with Google's crappy business model—which Apple has no obligation to prop up.
    tmayStrangeDays
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