Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff Mr Rickles. You here all week?
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Because there's no issue here because 100% of the iOS use base never had iCloud accounts safe from "intrusion and inspection by "authorities"".
"Prosecutors still contend that unlocking the iPhone is crucial because some data does not sync to iCloud. They said the FBI has retrieved Farook’s iCloud backups up to Oct. 19, about six weeks before the attack, and an FBI affidavit suggested that Farook deliberately disabled the sync feature."
Since the data is sitting on a server and because it won't self destruct when you try to decrypt it then none of the iCloud data is protected from governmental authorities willing to invest in decrypting that data and that applies to only end-to-end encrypted data as Apple holds the encryption keys for other iCloud data:
"Apple retains the encryption keys in our own data centers, so you can back up, sync, and share your iCloud data. iCloud Keychain stores your passwords and credit card information in such a way that Apple cannot read or access them."
So obviously you were trying to conflate on device security with iCloud security and hence you are concern trolling which is your modus operandi. To seem reasonable but use the nuance of the situation to advance an untrue negative view of what Apple does.
And unlike your assertion that Apple has to abandon privacy or abandon the Chinese market what most likely would happen is they would turn off iMessage and FaceTime which hardly matters to that market since most folks use WeChat or other Chinese messaging services anyway.
Do you really really want to trade barbs? Because it's probably much better for you just to accept a snide drive by as the cost of doing business as opposed to goad me into disconstructing your nonsense in detail.
--
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
I wonder what this means for cloud data stored in the CloudKit public database? That can't go to China because it is shared by users in other countries that still at least pretend to respect data privacy. If an app stored all the user data in a public database even if it wasn't accessible to other users, that would get around the Chinese requirement that Chinese data be hosted on a Chinese server.
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
Wrong. You deleted the proof that your assertion was clearly a lie.
The US should implement the same laws, any company wishing to do business in the US has to store US customer data on servers owns and operated by a US company.
Everyone is focusing on the fact this allows the Chinese government control over the data, but this could have been achieved by simply telling Apple data mush be stored on servers in china which Apple owns and operates., This law also forces Apple to pay a Chinese company to operation and maintain the systems & data for Apple. It is China's ways of making sure Chinese companies make money of US companies. Out stupid Law makers in the country fail to see and understand this, yes globalization is good as long as everyone play by the same rules. This means People in the US just lost the chance to have a high paying job since Apple was forced to outsource its operations to another company in another country.
Apple did not outsource the whole iCloud service to China. Just the service for people living in China.
That is my point those Jobs were once done by Apple employees, and I would beat some are US based, i doubt anyone lost their job in the US, but conceivably, as Apple business grow in China more American would be hire to help manage that growth, that will not happen now. This law is more than about Chinese Citizens "Privacy" it is also about creating jobs in China and Chinese companies making money from US companies.
But is it not Chinese money that is paying for the Chinese-specific iCloud? Apple is not sending US money overseas to pay for that.
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
Wrong. You deleted the proof that your assertion was clearly a lie.
Oh I can GUARANTEE you that I wrote no lie. Not even one. I'd love to see which of my comments you're staking that claim against since it clearly wasn't in the post you quoted.
The US should implement the same laws, any company wishing to do business in the US has to store US customer data on servers owns and operated by a US company.
Everyone is focusing on the fact this allows the Chinese government control over the data, but this could have been achieved by simply telling Apple data mush be stored on servers in china which Apple owns and operates., This law also forces Apple to pay a Chinese company to operation and maintain the systems & data for Apple. It is China's ways of making sure Chinese companies make money of US companies. Out stupid Law makers in the country fail to see and understand this, yes globalization is good as long as everyone play by the same rules. This means People in the US just lost the chance to have a high paying job since Apple was forced to outsource its operations to another company in another country.
Apple did not outsource the whole iCloud service to China. Just the service for people living in China.
That is my point those Jobs were once done by Apple employees, and I would beat some are US based, i doubt anyone lost their job in the US, but conceivably, as Apple business grow in China more American would be hire to help manage that growth, that will not happen now. This law is more than about Chinese Citizens "Privacy" it is also about creating jobs in China and Chinese companies making money from US companies.
But is it not Chinese money that is paying for the Chinese-specific iCloud? Apple is not sending US money overseas to pay for that.
I think I recall a story about Apple sending a $B or so to build that data center if that's what you're asking.
The US should implement the same laws, any company wishing to do business in the US has to store US customer data on servers owns and operated by a US company.
Everyone is focusing on the fact this allows the Chinese government control over the data, but this could have been achieved by simply telling Apple data mush be stored on servers in china which Apple owns and operates., This law also forces Apple to pay a Chinese company to operation and maintain the systems & data for Apple. It is China's ways of making sure Chinese companies make money of US companies. Out stupid Law makers in the country fail to see and understand this, yes globalization is good as long as everyone play by the same rules. This means People in the US just lost the chance to have a high paying job since Apple was forced to outsource its operations to another company in another country.
Apple did not outsource the whole iCloud service to China. Just the service for people living in China.
That is my point those Jobs were once done by Apple employees, and I would beat some are US based, i doubt anyone lost their job in the US, but conceivably, as Apple business grow in China more American would be hire to help manage that growth, that will not happen now. This law is more than about Chinese Citizens "Privacy" it is also about creating jobs in China and Chinese companies making money from US companies.
How do I know the iMessage user that I am communicating with is using iCloud with Guizhou-Cloud Big Data Industry Co. Ltd.? How can I be sure that my / my company's information on iMessage are not leaked to be monitored by the People Republic of China and the controlling Communist Party of China?
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
Wrong. You deleted the proof that your assertion was clearly a lie.
Oh I can GUARANTEE you that I wrote no lie. Not even one. I'd love to see which of my comments you're staking that claim against since it clearly wasn't in the post you quoted.
I'll wait.
"So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant."
It's a lie because you are asserting a change that didn't happen and you know it. 100% of the entire iOS user base doesn't have iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities".
But you deleted that correction once already and will do so again to claim you didn't lie or will weasel out of it by saying that 20% is true because it's less than 100%.
The point is that nothing has changed for users in terms of privacy. Before the change the authorities could inspect anything on iCloud they wanted to. After the change that's still a true statement. There are nuances that I typically disclose because I am honest and an engineer but you pick out to claim "well see, I'm not concern trolling" which is also a lie.
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
Wrong. You deleted the proof that your assertion was clearly a lie.
Oh I can GUARANTEE you that I wrote no lie. Not even one. I'd love to see which of my comments you're staking that claim against since it clearly wasn't in the post you quoted.
I'll wait.
"So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant."
It's a lie because you are asserting a change that didn't happen and you know it. 100% of the entire iOS user base doesn't have iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities".
But you deleted that correction once already and will do so again to claim you didn't lie or will weasel out of it by saying that 20% is true because it's less than 100%.
The point is that nothing has changed for users in terms of privacy. Before the change the authorities could inspect anything on iCloud they wanted to. After the change that's still a true statement. There are nuances that I typically disclose because I am honest and an engineer but you pick out to claim "well see, I'm not concern trolling" which is also a lie.
Whattt??? Of course that roughly 20%, the users in China, will not have access to iCloud accounts under Apple's sole control. Are you doing new math or something? There's approx 140M Apple users in China. Worldwide about 850M according to what I found. Simple computation.
...and now you introduce something I've not ever come across before: You say China always had access to iCloud data and with this turnover to a Chinese company along with the decryption key to every account that Apple formerly controlled nothing has changed? is that true? That's never been reported to the best of my knowledge. A citation would be great, not that I would doubt you're being truthful.
So I'll continue to wait for this "lie" you refer to. You and one other person here play far too loosey-goosey with the word.
EDIT: Ah I get what you're trying to do. You're claiming that China always had open access to Chinese users iCloud accounts and that giving account decryption keys for all encrypted Chinese iCloud accounts to a Chinese data center company changed nothing. Well in that case I think it's proper for you to provide a bit of actual evidence of that Chinese open access always there if you calling me a liar for saying this is a new attack on user privacy (which in actuality wouldn't be a lie anyway except to you and perhaps one or two others who seemingly don't know what the word means: An intentionally false statement)
So should I wait? If not and as you describe yourself as "honest engineer" an apology would be in order for tossing that accusation my way. Reacting to something you didn't like reading about by attacking the character of another member is uncalled for. I tried to joke it off and let it go but you plainly weren't having that.
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
Wrong. You deleted the proof that your assertion was clearly a lie.
Oh I can GUARANTEE you that I wrote no lie. Not even one. I'd love to see which of my comments you're staking that claim against since it clearly wasn't in the post you quoted.
I'll wait.
"So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant."
It's a lie because you are asserting a change that didn't happen and you know it. 100% of the entire iOS user base doesn't have iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities".
But you deleted that correction once already and will do so again to claim you didn't lie or will weasel out of it by saying that 20% is true because it's less than 100%.
The point is that nothing has changed for users in terms of privacy. Before the change the authorities could inspect anything on iCloud they wanted to. After the change that's still a true statement. There are nuances that I typically disclose because I am honest and an engineer but you pick out to claim "well see, I'm not concern trolling" which is also a lie.
Whattt??? Of course that roughly 20%, the users in China, will not have access to iCloud accounts under Apple's sole control. Are you doing new math or something? There's approx 140M Apple users in China. Worldwide about 850M according to what I found. Simple computation.
...and now you introduce something I've not ever come across before: You say China always had access to iCloud data and with this turnover to a Chinese company along with the decryption key to every account that Apple formerly controlled nothing has changed? is that true? That's never been reported to the best of my knowledge. A citation would be great, not that I would doubt you're being truthful.
So I'll continue to wait for this "lie" you refer to. You and one other person here play far too loosey-goosey with the word.
Nope. You're still lying. Your statement is FULLY quoted. You flatly assert that iCloud accounts are "safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities" and this safety is now lost. There's no discussion about "sole control" by Apple and you are implying by your false assertion that China, like the FBI, can't get anything they want off your iCloud account today.
China, FBI, etc has always had access to iCloud data because as the proper authorities they can ask Apple to hand it over and it does in the unencrypted form. Apple has the encryption keys for things on iCloud servers unlike the specific items under end-to-end encryption which remains un-compromised by turning over to the Chinese company because it's still encrypted. Nothing changes for users.
The 20% number is completely bogus because the number is 100%.
Yesterday the FBI could request all of your iCloud data not under end-to-end encryption and Apple would turn it over to them. Same for tomorrow. Same as in China. Same everywhere. It even gets any data under end-to-end encryption if you're backing up to iCloud. It won't be unencrypted by Apple but the FBI has claimed they can break it in 2 months rather than 2 days.
The citation is the link to the Apple page that talks about user privacy and I even bolded the relevant statement for you. But you ignored and deleted them. So fuck off, I'm not relinking something I put in a previous post in this very thread when you simply delete them anyway.
What pisses me off is that you think you're sooo damn clever that folks don't know what you're doing by making untrue statements like this. You don't want to be called out for lying then don't lie.
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
Wrong. You deleted the proof that your assertion was clearly a lie.
Oh I can GUARANTEE you that I wrote no lie. Not even one. I'd love to see which of my comments you're staking that claim against since it clearly wasn't in the post you quoted.
I'll wait.
"So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant."
It's a lie because you are asserting a change that didn't happen and you know it. 100% of the entire iOS user base doesn't have iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities".
But you deleted that correction once already and will do so again to claim you didn't lie or will weasel out of it by saying that 20% is true because it's less than 100%.
The point is that nothing has changed for users in terms of privacy. Before the change the authorities could inspect anything on iCloud they wanted to. After the change that's still a true statement. There are nuances that I typically disclose because I am honest and an engineer but you pick out to claim "well see, I'm not concern trolling" which is also a lie.
Whattt??? Of course that roughly 20%, the users in China, will not have access to iCloud accounts under Apple's sole control. Are you doing new math or something? There's approx 140M Apple users in China. Worldwide about 850M according to what I found. Simple computation.
...and now you introduce something I've not ever come across before: You say China always had access to iCloud data and with this turnover to a Chinese company along with the decryption key to every account that Apple formerly controlled nothing has changed? is that true? That's never been reported to the best of my knowledge. A citation would be great, not that I would doubt you're being truthful.
So I'll continue to wait for this "lie" you refer to. You and one other person here play far too loosey-goosey with the word.
Nope. You're still lying. Your statement is FULLY quoted. You flatly assert that iCloud accounts are "safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities" and this safety is now lost. There's no discussion about "sole control" by Apple and you are implying by your false assertion that China, like the FBI, can't get anything they want off your iCloud account today.
China, FBI, etc has always had access to iCloud data because as the proper authorities they can ask Apple to hand it over and it does in the unencrypted form. Apple has the encryption keys for things on iCloud servers unlike the specific items under end-to-end encryption which remains un-compromised by turning over to the Chinese company because it's still encrypted. Nothing changes for users.
The 20% number is completely bogus because the number is 100%.
Yesterday the FBI could request all of your iCloud data not under end-to-end encryption and Apple would turn it over to them. Same for tomorrow. Same as in China. Same everywhere. It even gets any data under end-to-end encryption if you're backing up to iCloud. It won't be unencrypted by Apple but the FBI has claimed they can break it in 2 months rather than 2 days.
The citation is the link to the Apple page that talks about user privacy and I even bolded the relevant statement for you. But you ignored and deleted them. So fuck off, I'm not relinking something I put in a previous post in this very thread when you simply delete them anyway.
What pisses me off is that you think you're sooo damn clever that folks don't know what you're doing by making untrue statements like this. You don't want to be called out for lying then don't lie.
100% wrong.
Neither China nor the FBI nor any other entity you mentioned has previously had unfettered access to user's iCloud accounts outside of Apple themselves. iCloud accounts have always been deemed safe from "from intrusion and inspection by authorities". They only could get what Apple was willing to divulge. It has always been up to Apple to comply with an authorities demand or not, in whole or in part or not at all, and even take it to court if necessary in order to protect a user. Apple could outright refuse and has numerous times and there's been discussion of that here often, with Apple lauded for taking the side of their users against government overreach. You good sir have been here long enough and actively enough to read them and so I'd find it hard to believe you were unaware. Surely you didn't think your iCloud data was free for the taking, all someone had to do was simply ask and Apple would happily give it to 'em? No, no you didn't and implying as much is not being an "honest engineer".
So being able to avoid a request of Apple, and further convincing them of the need for a very specific users data before they would comply, is absolutely positively "something new". China will now have direct access to ALL iCloud user data, taking Apple out of the decision making. In case you wish to call that too a "lie" Apple themselves have stated that the Chinese data center operator, GCBD, has the same access to encrypted data as Apple themselves, an acknowledgment that the decryption key has been shared with them. That's a first AFAIK and an expected one at that IMO. I'm convinced you know that all too well which would make you more than a tad dishonest. Fortunately for you AI doesn't have a Politifact-like Truth Meter.
I'd suggest you move on to some engineering topic which would be more up your alley. Calling another very long time forum member a "liar" while displaying very questionable honesty on your part is not a good showing. If you can't bring yourself to apologize for your egregious insult and can't begin fixing your problem with ethics now at least then why continue? It's not working for you.
Like I said I tried joking off your attempt at an insult when you first started, handle it as a bit of silliness between members and move on. You just weren't having it and now as a result digging yourself deeper holes.
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
Wrong. You deleted the proof that your assertion was clearly a lie.
Oh I can GUARANTEE you that I wrote no lie. Not even one. I'd love to see which of my comments you're staking that claim against since it clearly wasn't in the post you quoted.
I'll wait.
"So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant."
It's a lie because you are asserting a change that didn't happen and you know it. 100% of the entire iOS user base doesn't have iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities".
But you deleted that correction once already and will do so again to claim you didn't lie or will weasel out of it by saying that 20% is true because it's less than 100%.
The point is that nothing has changed for users in terms of privacy. Before the change the authorities could inspect anything on iCloud they wanted to. After the change that's still a true statement. There are nuances that I typically disclose because I am honest and an engineer but you pick out to claim "well see, I'm not concern trolling" which is also a lie.
Whattt??? Of course that roughly 20%, the users in China, will not have access to iCloud accounts under Apple's sole control. Are you doing new math or something? There's approx 140M Apple users in China. Worldwide about 850M according to what I found. Simple computation.
...and now you introduce something I've not ever come across before: You say China always had access to iCloud data and with this turnover to a Chinese company along with the decryption key to every account that Apple formerly controlled nothing has changed? is that true? That's never been reported to the best of my knowledge. A citation would be great, not that I would doubt you're being truthful.
So I'll continue to wait for this "lie" you refer to. You and one other person here play far too loosey-goosey with the word.
Nope. You're still lying. Your statement is FULLY quoted. You flatly assert that iCloud accounts are "safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities" and this safety is now lost. There's no discussion about "sole control" by Apple and you are implying by your false assertion that China, like the FBI, can't get anything they want off your iCloud account today.
China, FBI, etc has always had access to iCloud data because as the proper authorities they can ask Apple to hand it over and it does in the unencrypted form. Apple has the encryption keys for things on iCloud servers unlike the specific items under end-to-end encryption which remains un-compromised by turning over to the Chinese company because it's still encrypted. Nothing changes for users.
The 20% number is completely bogus because the number is 100%.
Yesterday the FBI could request all of your iCloud data not under end-to-end encryption and Apple would turn it over to them. Same for tomorrow. Same as in China. Same everywhere. It even gets any data under end-to-end encryption if you're backing up to iCloud. It won't be unencrypted by Apple but the FBI has claimed they can break it in 2 months rather than 2 days.
The citation is the link to the Apple page that talks about user privacy and I even bolded the relevant statement for you. But you ignored and deleted them. So fuck off, I'm not relinking something I put in a previous post in this very thread when you simply delete them anyway.
What pisses me off is that you think you're sooo damn clever that folks don't know what you're doing by making untrue statements like this. You don't want to be called out for lying then don't lie.
100% wrong.
Neither China nor the FBI nor any other entity you mentioned has previously had unfettered access to user's iCloud accounts outside of Apple themselves. iCloud accounts have always been deemed safe from "from intrusion and inspection by authorities". They only could get what Apple was willing to divulge. It has always been up to Apple to comply with an authorities demand or not, in whole or in part or not at all, and even take it to court if necessary in order to protect a user. Apple could outright refuse and has numerous times and there's been discussion of that here often, with Apple lauded for taking the side of their users against government overreach. You good sir have been here long enough and actively enough to read them and so I'd find it hard to believe you were unaware. Surely you didn't think your iCloud data was free for the taking, all someone had to do was simply ask and Apple would happily give it to 'em? No, no you didn't and implying as much is not being an "honest engineer".
So being able to avoid a request of Apple, and further convincing them of the need for a very specific users data before they would comply, is absolutely positively "something new". China will now have direct access to ALL iCloud user data, taking Apple out of the decision making. In case you wish to call that too a "lie" Apple themselves have stated that the Chinese data center operator, GCBD, has the same access to encrypted data as Apple themselves, an acknowledgment that the decryption key has been shared with them. That's a first AFAIK and an expected one at that IMO. I'm convinced you know that all too well which would make you more than a tad dishonest. Fortunately for you AI doesn't have a Politifact-like Truth Meter.
I'd suggest you move on to some engineering topic which would be more up your alley. Calling another very long time forum member a "liar" while displaying very questionable honesty on your part is not a good showing. If you can't bring yourself to apologize for your egregious insult and can't begin fixing your problem with ethics now at least then why continue? It's not working for you.
Like I said I tried joking off your attempt at an insult when you first started, handle it as a bit of silliness between members and move on. You just weren't having it and now as a result digging yourself deeper holes.
100% right.
Apple always complies with proper authorities because they follow the law. Apple refuses to weaken end-to-end encryption or add backdoors but complies with the law in terms of helping law enforcement as required by the legal system in the country that it operates. If it did not it wouldn't allowed to operate in China or here. Period.
You're spreading FUD and crying because it's being pointed out. Squirm all you want but it is obvious that you like to tell lies of omission and partial truths to promote an anti-apple viewpoint.
For example your silly "Surely you didn't think your iCloud data was free for the taking, all someone had to do was simply ask and Apple would happily give it to 'em? " is yet another example of your lies.
Yes, I do. Whenever Apple is presented with a proper request they would give them my iCloud data JUST LIKE THEY DID IN THE SAN BERNARDINO CASE.
You're artificially promoting the idea that Apple will illegally guard information to pretend shock that that Apple is no longer a champion of privacy because they are comply with local laws which is something they have always done. They have removed VPN apps, news apps, created data centers, created factories, etc all to remain compliant with local laws. At no point would Apple not comply with a legal request for iCloud data in China or anywhere else.
There is zero expectation of privacy or that the government isn't watching or censoring data in China. If the PRC authorities wanted any iCloud data all they had to do was ask via the proper channels.
You are a concern troll that has been bent on disparaging Apple and promoting Google for the entire time you've been here. I'm tired of it and when you lie I will call you on it when I have the time.
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
Wrong. You deleted the proof that your assertion was clearly a lie.
Oh I can GUARANTEE you that I wrote no lie. Not even one. I'd love to see which of my comments you're staking that claim against since it clearly wasn't in the post you quoted.
I'll wait.
"So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant."
It's a lie because you are asserting a change that didn't happen and you know it. 100% of the entire iOS user base doesn't have iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities".
But you deleted that correction once already and will do so again to claim you didn't lie or will weasel out of it by saying that 20% is true because it's less than 100%.
The point is that nothing has changed for users in terms of privacy. Before the change the authorities could inspect anything on iCloud they wanted to. After the change that's still a true statement. There are nuances that I typically disclose because I am honest and an engineer but you pick out to claim "well see, I'm not concern trolling" which is also a lie.
Whattt??? Of course that roughly 20%, the users in China, will not have access to iCloud accounts under Apple's sole control. Are you doing new math or something? There's approx 140M Apple users in China. Worldwide about 850M according to what I found. Simple computation.
...and now you introduce something I've not ever come across before: You say China always had access to iCloud data and with this turnover to a Chinese company along with the decryption key to every account that Apple formerly controlled nothing has changed? is that true? That's never been reported to the best of my knowledge. A citation would be great, not that I would doubt you're being truthful.
So I'll continue to wait for this "lie" you refer to. You and one other person here play far too loosey-goosey with the word.
Nope. You're still lying. Your statement is FULLY quoted. You flatly assert that iCloud accounts are "safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities" and this safety is now lost. There's no discussion about "sole control" by Apple and you are implying by your false assertion that China, like the FBI, can't get anything they want off your iCloud account today.
China, FBI, etc has always had access to iCloud data because as the proper authorities they can ask Apple to hand it over and it does in the unencrypted form. Apple has the encryption keys for things on iCloud servers unlike the specific items under end-to-end encryption which remains un-compromised by turning over to the Chinese company because it's still encrypted. Nothing changes for users.
The 20% number is completely bogus because the number is 100%.
Yesterday the FBI could request all of your iCloud data not under end-to-end encryption and Apple would turn it over to them. Same for tomorrow. Same as in China. Same everywhere. It even gets any data under end-to-end encryption if you're backing up to iCloud. It won't be unencrypted by Apple but the FBI has claimed they can break it in 2 months rather than 2 days.
The citation is the link to the Apple page that talks about user privacy and I even bolded the relevant statement for you. But you ignored and deleted them. So fuck off, I'm not relinking something I put in a previous post in this very thread when you simply delete them anyway.
What pisses me off is that you think you're sooo damn clever that folks don't know what you're doing by making untrue statements like this. You don't want to be called out for lying then don't lie.
100% wrong.
Neither China nor the FBI nor any other entity you mentioned has previously had unfettered access to user's iCloud accounts outside of Apple themselves. iCloud accounts have always been deemed safe from "from intrusion and inspection by authorities". They only could get what Apple was willing to divulge. It has always been up to Apple to comply with an authorities demand or not, in whole or in part or not at all, and even take it to court if necessary in order to protect a user. Apple could outright refuse and has numerous times and there's been discussion of that here often, with Apple lauded for taking the side of their users against government overreach. You good sir have been here long enough and actively enough to read them and so I'd find it hard to believe you were unaware. Surely you didn't think your iCloud data was free for the taking, all someone had to do was simply ask and Apple would happily give it to 'em? No, no you didn't and implying as much is not being an "honest engineer".
So being able to avoid a request of Apple, and further convincing them of the need for a very specific users data before they would comply, is absolutely positively "something new". China will now have direct access to ALL iCloud user data, taking Apple out of the decision making. In case you wish to call that too a "lie" Apple themselves have stated that the Chinese data center operator, GCBD, has the same access to encrypted data as Apple themselves, an acknowledgment that the decryption key has been shared with them. That's a first AFAIK and an expected one at that IMO. I'm convinced you know that all too well which would make you more than a tad dishonest. Fortunately for you AI doesn't have a Politifact-like Truth Meter.
I'd suggest you move on to some engineering topic which would be more up your alley. Calling another very long time forum member a "liar" while displaying very questionable honesty on your part is not a good showing. If you can't bring yourself to apologize for your egregious insult and can't begin fixing your problem with ethics now at least then why continue? It's not working for you.
Like I said I tried joking off your attempt at an insult when you first started, handle it as a bit of silliness between members and move on. You just weren't having it and now as a result digging yourself deeper holes.
100% right.
Apple always complies with proper authorities because they follow the law. Apple refuses to weaken end-to-end encryption or add backdoors but complies with the law in terms of helping law enforcement as required by the legal system in the country that it operates. If it did not it wouldn't allowed to operate in China or here. Period.
You're spreading FUD and crying because it's being pointed out. Squirm all you want but it is obvious that you like to tell lies of omission and partial truths to promote an anti-apple viewpoint.
For example your silly "Surely you didn't think your iCloud data was free for the taking, all someone had to do was simply ask and Apple would happily give it to 'em? " is yet another example of your lies.
Yes, I do. Whenever Apple is presented with a PROPER REQUEST they would give them my iCloud data JUST LIKE THEY DID IN THE SAN BERNARDINO CASE.
You're artificially promoting the idea that Apple will illegally guard information to pretend shock that that Apple is no longer a champion of privacy because they are comply with local laws which is something they have always done. They have removed VPN apps, news apps, created data centers, created factories, etc all to remain compliant with local laws. At no point would Apple not comply with a LEGAL REQUEST for iCloud data in China or anywhere else.
There is zero expectation of privacy or that the government isn't watching or censoring data in China. If the PRC authorities wanted any iCloud data all they had to do was ask via the PROPER CHANNELS.
You are a concern troll that has been bent on disparaging Apple and promoting Google for the entire time you've been here. I'm tired of it and when you lie I will call you on it when I have the time.
You're certainly failing at making your case. I myself noted Apple following the law, mentioned Apple going to court if necessary when they feel the request for user data is overreaching. Your hole is getting deeper, with you now making more stuff up I didn't say or even imply. Apple always follows the law as they understand it and as you say requires a PROPER REQUEST. That's how it's always been, certain conditions needed to be met...
....But until now they've not ever ceded control of any Apple decryption keys to ANY outside agency or authority, no more PROPER REQUESTS and NO CONDITIONS. Claiming that asking Apple for data which they can refuse if they believe it was not a legally-supported one is one and the same as no longer needing Apple's approval or cooperation or even notification AT ALL would be considered ridiculous by nearly anyone here. I'd be chastised by a dozen members if it was me instead of you saying something so obviously and evidently wrong. That you are using that line of reasoning to accuse me of "lying" when I recognize ( as do most Apple fans) that this is plainly new new territory for Apple and their user privacy reveals you as not terribly honest nor ethical. Every other reader here can easily understand this be a new and most certainly unexpected turn and I'm convinced you do too. Storing data in China is one thing. Giving away the Apple-protected key to access encrypted user data is another matter entirely and unprecedented for Apple.
So you're only looking worse by the post IMO. Enough with the insults and move on. There was absolutely nothing inaccurate much less lying with my initial post other than you didn't like it and now trying to figure out how to rationalize not apologizing for your overreaction. Let it go as you should have when it was laughed off a dozen posts back.
I will not be dragged into an insult competition with you. I'd be going in unarmed. You and a VERY few others have demonstrated they are much better at that that I am, and far more experienced. I go out of my way to treat other members here as respectfully as I can and rarely if ever make accusations of being untruthful against others. Therefor I will not continue with you since it will take far too long to get the taste out of my mouth if I reply in kind. That's not who I am. I try to encourage all of us to be better and more tolerant of differing opinions. You on the other hand are trying to drag out the worst. I will not cooperate with you in doing so.
Carry on or not, however you wish. Forum members and casual visitors will recognize things for how they are.
Right, so if Apple and GCBD have access to the data then it is no longer encrypted, yes?
My guess, and it's based on what the Chinese are requiring, is that at minimum they provided the Chinese a decryption key and at worse it's not encrypted at all.
So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant. It would seem that the pursuit of profits can trump user privacy even at Apple. If they were truly one of the staunchest protectors of privacy I believe we are all on that downward slope now, with the line that determines how firm that commitment is a bit better defined today.
Nice concern trolling. Are you up for a promotion at Google Astroturfers Inc?
Hey, you're not half bad at the personal stuff. Just not so hot at adding anything of substance to the discussion? Why bother if you have nothing to add? Oh, I know why...
Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
So after all that you've now understood there was no "concern trolling" afterall. The point I made and that you didn't initially understand was a valid one.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
Wrong. You deleted the proof that your assertion was clearly a lie.
Oh I can GUARANTEE you that I wrote no lie. Not even one. I'd love to see which of my comments you're staking that claim against since it clearly wasn't in the post you quoted.
I'll wait.
"So as of February at least 20% of the entire iOS user base will no longer have their iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities". That's significant."
It's a lie because you are asserting a change that didn't happen and you know it. 100% of the entire iOS user base doesn't have iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities".
But you deleted that correction once already and will do so again to claim you didn't lie or will weasel out of it by saying that 20% is true because it's less than 100%.
The point is that nothing has changed for users in terms of privacy. Before the change the authorities could inspect anything on iCloud they wanted to. After the change that's still a true statement. There are nuances that I typically disclose because I am honest and an engineer but you pick out to claim "well see, I'm not concern trolling" which is also a lie.
Whattt??? Of course that roughly 20%, the users in China, will not have access to iCloud accounts under Apple's sole control. Are you doing new math or something? There's approx 140M Apple users in China. Worldwide about 850M according to what I found. Simple computation.
...and now you introduce something I've not ever come across before: You say China always had access to iCloud data and with this turnover to a Chinese company along with the decryption key to every account that Apple formerly controlled nothing has changed? is that true? That's never been reported to the best of my knowledge. A citation would be great, not that I would doubt you're being truthful.
So I'll continue to wait for this "lie" you refer to. You and one other person here play far too loosey-goosey with the word.
Nope. You're still lying. Your statement is FULLY quoted. You flatly assert that iCloud accounts are "safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities" and this safety is now lost. There's no discussion about "sole control" by Apple and you are implying by your false assertion that China, like the FBI, can't get anything they want off your iCloud account today.
China, FBI, etc has always had access to iCloud data because as the proper authorities they can ask Apple to hand it over and it does in the unencrypted form. Apple has the encryption keys for things on iCloud servers unlike the specific items under end-to-end encryption which remains un-compromised by turning over to the Chinese company because it's still encrypted. Nothing changes for users.
The 20% number is completely bogus because the number is 100%.
Yesterday the FBI could request all of your iCloud data not under end-to-end encryption and Apple would turn it over to them. Same for tomorrow. Same as in China. Same everywhere. It even gets any data under end-to-end encryption if you're backing up to iCloud. It won't be unencrypted by Apple but the FBI has claimed they can break it in 2 months rather than 2 days.
The citation is the link to the Apple page that talks about user privacy and I even bolded the relevant statement for you. But you ignored and deleted them. So fuck off, I'm not relinking something I put in a previous post in this very thread when you simply delete them anyway.
What pisses me off is that you think you're sooo damn clever that folks don't know what you're doing by making untrue statements like this. You don't want to be called out for lying then don't lie.
100% wrong.
Neither China nor the FBI nor any other entity you mentioned has previously had unfettered access to user's iCloud accounts outside of Apple themselves. iCloud accounts have always been deemed safe from "from intrusion and inspection by authorities". They only could get what Apple was willing to divulge. It has always been up to Apple to comply with an authorities demand or not, in whole or in part or not at all, and even take it to court if necessary in order to protect a user. Apple could outright refuse and has numerous times and there's been discussion of that here often, with Apple lauded for taking the side of their users against government overreach. You good sir have been here long enough and actively enough to read them and so I'd find it hard to believe you were unaware. Surely you didn't think your iCloud data was free for the taking, all someone had to do was simply ask and Apple would happily give it to 'em? No, no you didn't and implying as much is not being an "honest engineer".
So being able to avoid a request of Apple, and further convincing them of the need for a very specific users data before they would comply, is absolutely positively "something new". China will now have direct access to ALL iCloud user data, taking Apple out of the decision making. In case you wish to call that too a "lie" Apple themselves have stated that the Chinese data center operator, GCBD, has the same access to encrypted data as Apple themselves, an acknowledgment that the decryption key has been shared with them. That's a first AFAIK and an expected one at that IMO. I'm convinced you know that all too well which would make you more than a tad dishonest. Fortunately for you AI doesn't have a Politifact-like Truth Meter.
I'd suggest you move on to some engineering topic which would be more up your alley. Calling another very long time forum member a "liar" while displaying very questionable honesty on your part is not a good showing. If you can't bring yourself to apologize for your egregious insult and can't begin fixing your problem with ethics now at least then why continue? It's not working for you.
Like I said I tried joking off your attempt at an insult when you first started, handle it as a bit of silliness between members and move on. You just weren't having it and now as a result digging yourself deeper holes.
100% right.
Apple always complies with proper authorities because they follow the law. Apple refuses to weaken end-to-end encryption or add backdoors but complies with the law in terms of helping law enforcement as required by the legal system in the country that it operates. If it did not it wouldn't allowed to operate in China or here. Period.
You're spreading FUD and crying because it's being pointed out. Squirm all you want but it is obvious that you like to tell lies of omission and partial truths to promote an anti-apple viewpoint.
For example your silly "Surely you didn't think your iCloud data was free for the taking, all someone had to do was simply ask and Apple would happily give it to 'em? " is yet another example of your lies.
Yes, I do. Whenever Apple is presented with a PROPER REQUEST they would give them my iCloud data JUST LIKE THEY DID IN THE SAN BERNARDINO CASE.
You're artificially promoting the idea that Apple will illegally guard information to pretend shock that that Apple is no longer a champion of privacy because they are comply with local laws which is something they have always done. They have removed VPN apps, news apps, created data centers, created factories, etc all to remain compliant with local laws. At no point would Apple not comply with a LEGAL REQUEST for iCloud data in China or anywhere else.
There is zero expectation of privacy or that the government isn't watching or censoring data in China. If the PRC authorities wanted any iCloud data all they had to do was ask via the PROPER CHANNELS.
You are a concern troll that has been bent on disparaging Apple and promoting Google for the entire time you've been here. I'm tired of it and when you lie I will call you on it when I have the time.
You're certainly failing at making your case. I myself noted Apple following the law, mentioned Apple going to court if necessary when they feel the request for user data is overreaching. Your hole is getting deeper, with you now making more stuff up I didn't say or even imply. Apple always follows the law as they understand it and as you say requires a PROPER REQUEST. That's how it's always been, certain conditions needed to be met...
....But until now they've not ever ceded control of any Apple decryption keys to ANY outside agency or authority, no more PROPER REQUESTS and NO CONDITIONS. Claiming that asking Apple for data which they can refuse if they believe it was not a legally-supported one is one and the same as no longer needing Apple's approval or cooperation or even notification AT ALL would be considered ridiculous by nearly anyone here. I'd be chastised by a dozen members if it was me instead of you saying something so obviously and evidently wrong. That you are using that line of reasoning to accuse me of "lying" when I recognize ( as do most Apple fans) that this is plainly new new territory for Apple and their user privacy reveals you as not terribly honest nor ethical. Every other reader here can easily understand this be a new and most certainly unexpected turn and I'm convinced you do too. Storing data in China is one thing. Giving away the Apple-protected key to access encrypted user data is another matter entirely and unprecedented for Apple.
So you're only looking worse by the post IMO. Enough with the insults and move on. There was absolutely nothing inaccurate much less lying with my initial post other than you didn't like it and now trying to figure out how to rationalize not apologizing for your overreaction. Let it go as you should have when it was laughed off a dozen posts back.
I will not be dragged into an insult competition with you. I'd be going in unarmed. You and a VERY few others have demonstrated they are much better at that that I am, and far more experienced. I go out of my way to treat other members here as respectfully as I can and rarely if ever make accusations of being untruthful against others. Therefor I will not continue with you since it will take far too long to get the taste out of my mouth if I reply in kind. That's not who I am. I try to encourage all of us to be better and more tolerant of differing opinions. You on the other hand are trying to drag out the worst. I will not cooperate with you in doing so.
Carry on or not, however you wish. Forum members and casual visitors will recognize things for how they are.
Are you now claiming that GCPD is automatically untrustworthy by the virtue of simply being Chinese? Mighty racist of you.
The fact of the matter is simple: PRC laws allow their authorities to request data much more freely than US laws allow the FBI to do so. There hasn't been any barrier to them requesting anyone's iCloud data. So even assuming that GCPD is simply an arm of the PRC intelligence services makes no material difference to individuals because nobody over there with any sense trusts the cloud, Apple or anyone's, with incriminating evidence. The penalty for making this mistake isn't to be arrested by the FBI but to be disappeared by the PRC secret police.
Apple can claim that there are no backdoors to the data with a clear conscious...there probably aren't any and the Chinese don't care. The PRC demands to be let in via the front door. Whether that door is owned by Apple or some Chinese company is immaterial. You continue to make an issue of this by lying about the situation because you like putting Apple in a bad light.
You get away with being a long standing concern troll in this forum because nobody systematically points out your lying in nearly every thread you are engaged in. This isn't an issue of differing opinions at all. This is about systematic use of false or partially true and misleading statements to consistently paint negative Apple narratives. You are like the Anti-DED who can't go more than three paragraphs (usually reasonably well written ones) before going off the deep end and creating some bizzaro anti-Google slant and hitting the 10,000 word count.
It's some sort of weird game for you, it's tiresome and frankly bugger off. You don't need to cooperate. You will simply continue to willfully spread untruths (aka lies) and I will continue to point out you are lying when I see it. You have long ago used up the benefit of the doubt and being polite to you simply feeds your strange ego.
Comments
"Prosecutors still contend that unlocking the iPhone is crucial because some data does not sync to iCloud. They said the FBI has retrieved Farook’s iCloud backups up to Oct. 19, about six weeks before the attack, and an FBI affidavit suggested that Farook deliberately disabled the sync feature."
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tn-apple-fbi-call-20160219-story.html
Since the data is sitting on a server and because it won't self destruct when you try to decrypt it then none of the iCloud data is protected from governmental authorities willing to invest in decrypting that data and that applies to only end-to-end encrypted data as Apple holds the encryption keys for other iCloud data:
"Apple retains the encryption keys in our own data centers, so you can back up, sync, and share your iCloud data. iCloud Keychain stores your passwords and credit card information in such a way that Apple cannot read or access them."
https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/
So obviously you were trying to conflate on device security with iCloud security and hence you are concern trolling which is your modus operandi. To seem reasonable but use the nuance of the situation to advance an untrue negative view of what Apple does.
And unlike your assertion that Apple has to abandon privacy or abandon the Chinese market what most likely would happen is they would turn off iMessage and FaceTime which hardly matters to that market since most folks use WeChat or other Chinese messaging services anyway.
Do you really really want to trade barbs? Because it's probably much better for you just to accept a snide drive by as the cost of doing business as opposed to goad me into disconstructing your nonsense in detail.
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Edit: The primary difference after the change is that the Chinese company would have the encryption keys in addition to Apple...which means that when the government snoops on a Chinese user Apple would be unaware of it happening, as opposed to when they legally respond to a request to decrypt. Likewise they could grab iCloud backups without Apple knowing.
BTW If Apple WILL know when an account it "decrypted" they are forbidden under the law from disclosing it anyway. It's pretty much been taken out of Apple's control, which I for one am just as surprised about as anyone else here.
But is it not Chinese money that is paying for the Chinese-specific iCloud? Apple is not sending US money overseas to pay for that.
I'll wait.
It's a lie because you are asserting a change that didn't happen and you know it. 100% of the entire iOS user base doesn't have iCloud accounts safe from intrusion and inspection by "authorities".
But you deleted that correction once already and will do so again to claim you didn't lie or will weasel out of it by saying that 20% is true because it's less than 100%.
The point is that nothing has changed for users in terms of privacy. Before the change the authorities could inspect anything on iCloud they wanted to. After the change that's still a true statement. There are nuances that I typically disclose because I am honest and an engineer but you pick out to claim "well see, I'm not concern trolling" which is also a lie.
...and now you introduce something I've not ever come across before: You say China always had access to iCloud data and with this turnover to a Chinese company along with the decryption key to every account that Apple formerly controlled nothing has changed? is that true? That's never been reported to the best of my knowledge. A citation would be great, not that I would doubt you're being truthful.
So I'll continue to wait for this "lie" you refer to. You and one other person here play far too loosey-goosey with the word.
EDIT: Ah I get what you're trying to do. You're claiming that China always had open access to Chinese users iCloud accounts and that giving account decryption keys for all encrypted Chinese iCloud accounts to a Chinese data center company changed nothing. Well in that case I think it's proper for you to provide a bit of actual evidence of that Chinese open access always there if you calling me a liar for saying this is a new attack on user privacy (which in actuality wouldn't be a lie anyway except to you and perhaps one or two others who seemingly don't know what the word means: An intentionally false statement)
So should I wait? If not and as you describe yourself as "honest engineer" an apology would be in order for tossing that accusation my way. Reacting to something you didn't like reading about by attacking the character of another member is uncalled for. I tried to joke it off and let it go but you plainly weren't having that.
China, FBI, etc has always had access to iCloud data because as the proper authorities they can ask Apple to hand it over and it does in the unencrypted form. Apple has the encryption keys for things on iCloud servers unlike the specific items under end-to-end encryption which remains un-compromised by turning over to the Chinese company because it's still encrypted. Nothing changes for users.
The 20% number is completely bogus because the number is 100%.
Yesterday the FBI could request all of your iCloud data not under end-to-end encryption and Apple would turn it over to them. Same for tomorrow. Same as in China. Same everywhere. It even gets any data under end-to-end encryption if you're backing up to iCloud. It won't be unencrypted by Apple but the FBI has claimed they can break it in 2 months rather than 2 days.
The citation is the link to the Apple page that talks about user privacy and I even bolded the relevant statement for you. But you ignored and deleted them. So fuck off, I'm not relinking something I put in a previous post in this very thread when you simply delete them anyway.
What pisses me off is that you think you're sooo damn clever that folks don't know what you're doing by making untrue statements like this. You don't want to be called out for lying then don't lie.
Neither China nor the FBI nor any other entity you mentioned has previously had unfettered access to user's iCloud accounts outside of Apple themselves. iCloud accounts have always been deemed safe from "from intrusion and inspection by authorities". They only could get what Apple was willing to divulge. It has always been up to Apple to comply with an authorities demand or not, in whole or in part or not at all, and even take it to court if necessary in order to protect a user. Apple could outright refuse and has numerous times and there's been discussion of that here often, with Apple lauded for taking the side of their users against government overreach. You good sir have been here long enough and actively enough to read them and so I'd find it hard to believe you were unaware. Surely you didn't think your iCloud data was free for the taking, all someone had to do was simply ask and Apple would happily give it to 'em? No, no you didn't and implying as much is not being an "honest engineer".
So being able to avoid a request of Apple, and further convincing them of the need for a very specific users data before they would comply, is absolutely positively "something new". China will now have direct access to ALL iCloud user data, taking Apple out of the decision making. In case you wish to call that too a "lie" Apple themselves have stated that the Chinese data center operator, GCBD, has the same access to encrypted data as Apple themselves, an acknowledgment that the decryption key has been shared with them. That's a first AFAIK and an expected one at that IMO. I'm convinced you know that all too well which would make you more than a tad dishonest. Fortunately for you AI doesn't have a Politifact-like Truth Meter.
I'd suggest you move on to some engineering topic which would be more up your alley. Calling another very long time forum member a "liar" while displaying very questionable honesty on your part is not a good showing. If you can't bring yourself to apologize for your egregious insult and can't begin fixing your problem with ethics now at least then why continue? It's not working for you.
Like I said I tried joking off your attempt at an insult when you first started, handle it as a bit of silliness between members and move on. You just weren't having it and now as a result digging yourself deeper holes.
Apple always complies with proper authorities because they follow the law. Apple refuses to weaken end-to-end encryption or add backdoors but complies with the law in terms of helping law enforcement as required by the legal system in the country that it operates. If it did not it wouldn't allowed to operate in China or here. Period.
You're spreading FUD and crying because it's being pointed out. Squirm all you want but it is obvious that you like to tell lies of omission and partial truths to promote an anti-apple viewpoint.
For example your silly "Surely you didn't think your iCloud data was free for the taking, all someone had to do was simply ask and Apple would happily give it to 'em? " is yet another example of your lies.
Yes, I do. Whenever Apple is presented with a proper request they would give them my iCloud data JUST LIKE THEY DID IN THE SAN BERNARDINO CASE.
You're artificially promoting the idea that Apple will illegally guard information to pretend shock that that Apple is no longer a champion of privacy because they are comply with local laws which is something they have always done. They have removed VPN apps, news apps, created data centers, created factories, etc all to remain compliant with local laws. At no point would Apple not comply with a legal request for iCloud data in China or anywhere else.
There is zero expectation of privacy or that the government isn't watching or censoring data in China. If the PRC authorities wanted any iCloud data all they had to do was ask via the proper channels.
You are a concern troll that has been bent on disparaging Apple and promoting Google for the entire time you've been here. I'm tired of it and when you lie I will call you on it when I have the time.
....But until now they've not ever ceded control of any Apple decryption keys to ANY outside agency or authority, no more PROPER REQUESTS and NO CONDITIONS. Claiming that asking Apple for data which they can refuse if they believe it was not a legally-supported one is one and the same as no longer needing Apple's approval or cooperation or even notification AT ALL would be considered ridiculous by nearly anyone here. I'd be chastised by a dozen members if it was me instead of you saying something so obviously and evidently wrong. That you are using that line of reasoning to accuse me of "lying" when I recognize ( as do most Apple fans) that this is plainly new new territory for Apple and their user privacy reveals you as not terribly honest nor ethical. Every other reader here can easily understand this be a new and most certainly unexpected turn and I'm convinced you do too. Storing data in China is one thing. Giving away the Apple-protected key to access encrypted user data is another matter entirely and unprecedented for Apple.
So you're only looking worse by the post IMO. Enough with the insults and move on. There was absolutely nothing inaccurate much less lying with my initial post other than you didn't like it and now trying to figure out how to rationalize not apologizing for your overreaction. Let it go as you should have when it was laughed off a dozen posts back.
I will not be dragged into an insult competition with you. I'd be going in unarmed. You and a VERY few others have demonstrated they are much better at that that I am, and far more experienced. I go out of my way to treat other members here as respectfully as I can and rarely if ever make accusations of being untruthful against others. Therefor I will not continue with you since it will take far too long to get the taste out of my mouth if I reply in kind. That's not who I am. I try to encourage all of us to be better and more tolerant of differing opinions. You on the other hand are trying to drag out the worst. I will not cooperate with you in doing so.
Carry on or not, however you wish. Forum members and casual visitors will recognize things for how they are.
The fact of the matter is simple: PRC laws allow their authorities to request data much more freely than US laws allow the FBI to do so. There hasn't been any barrier to them requesting anyone's iCloud data. So even assuming that GCPD is simply an arm of the PRC intelligence services makes no material difference to individuals because nobody over there with any sense trusts the cloud, Apple or anyone's, with incriminating evidence. The penalty for making this mistake isn't to be arrested by the FBI but to be disappeared by the PRC secret police.
Apple can claim that there are no backdoors to the data with a clear conscious...there probably aren't any and the Chinese don't care. The PRC demands to be let in via the front door. Whether that door is owned by Apple or some Chinese company is immaterial. You continue to make an issue of this by lying about the situation because you like putting Apple in a bad light.
You get away with being a long standing concern troll in this forum because nobody systematically points out your lying in nearly every thread you are engaged in. This isn't an issue of differing opinions at all. This is about systematic use of false or partially true and misleading statements to consistently paint negative Apple narratives. You are like the Anti-DED who can't go more than three paragraphs (usually reasonably well written ones) before going off the deep end and creating some bizzaro anti-Google slant and hitting the 10,000 word count.
It's some sort of weird game for you, it's tiresome and frankly bugger off. You don't need to cooperate. You will simply continue to willfully spread untruths (aka lies) and I will continue to point out you are lying when I see it. You have long ago used up the benefit of the doubt and being polite to you simply feeds your strange ego.