2018 MacBook Pro keyboards include silicone membrane, might protect against key failure

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  • Reply 21 of 62
    irelandireland Posts: 17,802member
    Did Apple use this silicon membrane on previous (non-butterfly) versions of their laptop keyboards?
    No, they were simply a more reliable, albeit squishy design.
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  • Reply 22 of 62
    irelandireland Posts: 17,802member
    There goes Gruber’s theory Apple always mean what they say.
    aylk
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  • Reply 23 of 62
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    henrybay said:
    ‘What other problems?’
    ‘Lack of ports…
    It’s not 1995 anymore. You need to buy adapters for your ADB accessories and get used to USB. Whining won’t fix it.
    backstabpscooter63randominternetperson
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  • Reply 24 of 62
    irelandireland Posts: 17,802member
    slurpy said:
    Anyone who had a shred of common sense suspected this. Makes the previous AI kneejerk piece looks pretty idiotic now. 
    Maybe, but to be fair to AI, Apple was I believe quoted as saying the new design doesn’t improve on reliability. I’m too lazy to fact check, so someone shoot me if I’m wrong.
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  • Reply 25 of 62
    dr. xdr. x Posts: 282member
    ireland said:
    slurpy said:
    Anyone who had a shred of common sense suspected this. Makes the previous AI kneejerk piece looks pretty idiotic now. 
    Maybe, but to be fair to AI, Apple was I believe quoted as saying the new design doesn’t improve on reliability. I’m too lazy to fact check, so someone shoot me if I’m wrong.
    Here is the article on AI: Apple says the 2018 MacBook Pro keyboard doesn't improve reliability, and that's not great. Hope this helps.

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  • Reply 26 of 62
    Mike Wuerthelemike wuerthele Posts: 7,262administrator
    slurpy said:
    Anyone who had a shred of common sense suspected this. Makes the previous AI kneejerk piece looks pretty idiotic now. 
    You might want to actually read the "knee-jerk piece." In two days, Apple has now said that there are no keyboard reliability improvements to 11 venues, including AI. 

    FTA: "The Verge asked directly, and was reminded that the failure rate was low. CNet was told that the keyboard contains "no new engineering or tweaks" to alter reliability."

    And, there are way more yesterday, and even today.

    Now, as far as the gasket goes. I suspect it will help some, but not eradicate the issue. It is not a solid gasket, and there are many holes, allowing for the keycap to be attached to the keyboard. Plus, tolerances are still very, very tight, so a stuck key is still a possibility.

    Like I said, we're still counting.
    edited July 2018
    aylk
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  • Reply 27 of 62
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member
    ireland said:
    slurpy said:
    Anyone who had a shred of common sense suspected this. Makes the previous AI kneejerk piece looks pretty idiotic now. 
    Maybe, but to be fair to AI, Apple was I believe quoted as saying the new design doesn’t improve on reliability. I’m too lazy to fact check, so someone shoot me if I’m wrong.
    An Apple spokesperson told the Verge this keyboard was not designed to improve reliability. It could’ve just been worded poorly. Or they said it because had they said it does improve reliability that would have implied the previous generation keyboards were not reliable and would have opened Apple up to more lawsuits or calls to recall the product. I do think they could have worded it better, just something generic like we’e always looking to improve our products. They don’t have to specifically mention reliability.
    cgWerks
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  • Reply 28 of 62
    backstabbackstab Posts: 138member
    slurpy said:
    Anyone who had a shred of common sense suspected this. Makes the previous AI kneejerk piece looks pretty idiotic now. 
    Damn straight.
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  • Reply 29 of 62
    19831983 Posts: 1,225member
    Something like a "quieter keyboard" is not the calibre of feature that apple would usually advertise - it's there as a dog whistle to tell certain customers that Apple have changed the keyboard design. They are signalling this because they recognise that people are having trouble with the current design and specifically needed to call out that changes have been made. 

    Apple are not going to specifically advertise that the new keyboard design addresses the dust/crumb issue.
    Exactly!
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  • Reply 30 of 62
    The claim that the previous butterfly designs would actually qualify as "unreliable" hasn't been proven by anyone. That would certainly be a reason for Apple to say that the 3rd gen design isn't specific to improving reliability, no? 
    pscooter63randominternetperson
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  • Reply 31 of 62
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member
    The particle blocking effects of the membrane are real, Marvin's post shows that. 

    One way to know whether the particle blocking effects were intentional or just coincidental to the noise reduction goal might be to ask "Is the membrane the simplest way noise could have been reduced?"
    cgWerksaylk
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  • Reply 32 of 62
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 2,957member
    Good interim solution for the keys/keyboard problem until 2020 when redesigned Mackbook Pro comes out.
    edited July 2018
    aylk
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  • Reply 33 of 62
    bloggerblogbloggerblog Posts: 2,618member
    slurpy said:
    Anyone who had a shred of common sense suspected this. Makes the previous AI kneejerk piece looks pretty idiotic now. 
    ... and there are many holes, allowing for the keycap to be attached to the keyboard.
    According to the patent, there’s a hole in the membrane to allows air to exit and enter the membrane as the key is pressed and released.
    dws-2
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  • Reply 34 of 62
    irelandireland Posts: 17,802member
    ascii said:
    The particle blocking effects of the membrane are real, Marvin's post shows that. 

    One way to know whether the particle blocking effects were intentional or just coincidental to the noise reduction goal might be to ask "Is the membrane the simplest way noise could have been reduced?"
    I think it’s a sensible argument to make what ifixit said, that the membrane was most likely added to help prevent dust and dirt getting under the keys and the noise reduction was a happy accident. Either way I’d bet the fact that it made the keys quieter was a quality that didn’t go unnoticed. That dust and crumbs can block keys from functioning at all, on any number of notebooks, is for me, a design flaw/problem however you slice it. These keyboards should be water and dust resistant. It should be a tentpole feature of all technology devices.
    edited July 2018
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  • Reply 35 of 62
    ascii said:
    The particle blocking effects of the membrane are real, Marvin's post shows that. 
    That doesn't prove anything re: the reliability of the 2nd gen design though. Laptops manufactured by other companies that don't have butterfly mechanisms or membranes need repairs for the exact same types of issues: stuck keys, keys that only work intermittently, need for total keyboard replacement etc. There's nothing unusual about those types of repairs and laptops. 
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  • Reply 36 of 62
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 2,957member
    Don't write if you can not prove. And don't spread fake news like mention in article "Apple said the revamped keys are not intended to improve reliability. " Apple would never make such comment.......!!
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  • Reply 37 of 62
    Mike Wuerthelemike wuerthele Posts: 7,262administrator
    wood1208 said:
    Don't write if you can not prove. And don't spread fake news like mention in article "Apple said the revamped keys are not intended to improve reliability. " Apple would never make such comment.......!!
    Yeah, well, they specifically did say that, and continue to say it. To Cnet, The Verge, to us, and about four other publications.

    Read the commenting guidelines regarding the term "fake news." Cast not the first stone.
    edited July 2018
    MplsPcgWerksaylkgatorguy
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  • Reply 38 of 62
    Mike Wuerthelemike wuerthele Posts: 7,262administrator
    slurpy said:
    Anyone who had a shred of common sense suspected this. Makes the previous AI kneejerk piece looks pretty idiotic now. 
    ... and there are many holes, allowing for the keycap to be attached to the keyboard.
    According to the patent, there’s a hole in the membrane to allows air to exit and enter the membrane as the key is pressed and released.
    Yup, and in execution, there are holes for the keycap pegs and a large one in the center of the key.
    edited July 2018
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  • Reply 39 of 62
    Solisoli Posts: 10,038member
    Hopefully there won't be an excess heat issue with potentially less ventilation through the keyboard, plus the larger battery.
    I assumed it wasn't so much about hot air escaping, then it was about key being able to transfer from the top of casing, or which the aluminum probably helped most with sapping heat from internal components. If there is also convention the design looks to still allow the hot air to be funneled upwards to an opening under the key. Maybe each key will get warmer from the silicon being added, but I'd doubt it.

    Hopefully there won't be an excess heat issue with potentially less ventilation through the keyboard, plus the larger battery.
    That’s a very good comment since the air flow through the keyboard has previously been mentioned by Apple as a contributing factor to heat dissipation.
    Did they mention airflow thought the keyboard or mention heat transferance through the keyboard?

    DuhSesame said:
    Hopefully there won't be an excess heat issue with potentially less ventilation through the keyboard, plus the larger battery.
    That’s a very good comment since the air flow through the keyboard has previously been mentioned by Apple as a contributing factor to heat dissipation.
    The heat dissipation mainly goes from the side & the center of your hinge, and the airflow from the gaps of keyboard are insignificant at best.  When did they ever said that?
    To me it looks like cool is air pulled in from the sides and then transferred out the back. You may know that most heat lost in a home is lost out through the ceiling, as oppose to walls or the floor, so can we expect that being a plausible way to reduce heat by making the entire aluminum top casing of the MBP a giant heat sink since it's passive and they wouldn't need to do anything to get air to float up?

    I'll see If I can find the video where the statement was made.

    edit: Not it, but it is the video where they first talk about how they did it. Go to 11 minutes in to see Jony Ive talking about the new and old ways.


    edited July 2018
    pscooter63minicoffee
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  • Reply 40 of 62
    dws-2dws-2 Posts: 281member
    wood1208 said:
    Don't write if you can not prove. And don't spread fake news like mention in article "Apple said the revamped keys are not intended to improve reliability. " Apple would never make such comment.......!!
    Yeah, well, they specifically did say that, and continue to say it. To Cnet, The Verge, to us, and about four other publications.

    Read the commenting guidelines regarding the term "fake news." Cast not the first stone.
    Thanks for the information. Apple obviously doesn't want the news headline for the new MacBooks to be: "Apple Fixes Broken Keyboard. Maybe." because that's what they'd get if they admitted the problem. This is the news that the average person uses to decide what to buy. I get it. They want the news to be about the news features and the faster speed.

    On the other hand, I feel like I've lost some trust in Apple over this. They are being dishonest about the keyboard to make for a better news cycle.

    The other option is that they have a keyboard with the following facts:
    1. People have been complaining publicly and angrily about the keyboard for two years.
    2. They filed a patent to improve the keyboard's reliability more than a year ago.
    3. They added silicone to the keyboard in a way that seems somewhat similiar to the patent.
    4. They have a class action suit against them for the keyboard.
    5. They have instituted a repair program for the keyboard.
    Yet with all those facts, they did not (or could not) improve the keyboard in the three plus years it's been out. There is a possibility this is true, but if so, it reflects very poorly on both Apple's engineering and their leadership's ability to plan and resolve issues.
    cgWerksmrcaylk
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