MacBook keyboard failures could end with introduction of glass panel keyboards

24

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 68
    davgregdavgreg Posts: 454member
    Amazing to me that Logitech has a model that has been sold for years that types better than the Apple keyboard, is more reliable, costs less and has illuminated keys. I am typing on one right now- K811. The only complaint I have is that it does not have user replaceable battery.

    Apple is all about fashion apparently.
    Latko
  • Reply 22 of 68
    LatkoLatko Posts: 398member
    melgross said:
    ort press keys, and they continue to get even shorter and less clickey. Get used to it.
    No Tim - you ain’t Steve.
  • Reply 23 of 68
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 2,280member
    idiotic idea from a company that has lost direction. Apple has gone down this path of forcing design changes on customers that neither improve their experience nor add anything significant to the product. They are just changes for changes sake. The headphone jack went away because? The adoption of USB C at the exclusion of other standard ports like USB A and SD cards? I hope they do adopt the glass keyboard. If it's anything like the force touch or haptic feedback it will be a dismal failure. All the legions of coders and developers who adore Macbooks will ditch them for HP and Dell. After a dismal sales meeting they will finally be forced to assess their ivory tower design ethos of putting form at the expense of function.
    Reminds me of that Friends episode where Joey uses the thesaurus to write a letter and it ended up being nothing but a bunch of unintelligible phrases linked together by punctuation. Just because you use the big boys phrases (i.e. known troll memes), doesn't mean you're any good at it.
    If you had difficulty parsing the comment you’re complaining about, that’s on you. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 24 of 68
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 2,280member
    As for this glass keyboard idea...

     No.

    I don’t even like the iPad Pro Smart Keyboard I own, and that’s still a mechanical keyboard. My fingers can barely distinguish between the keys and the keyless surface, the keys barely travel, and key mashing goes on a lot more there than on any of my three Mac keyboards. It’s perfectly safe from dust, though. I put up with it because it’s better than not having a keyboard on my iPad (though Apple clearly don’t design iOS with it in mind, with a lot lacking in usability) and because I didn’t want third-party devices at the time.

    Apple is spending time and money researching these things to find out if they’re viable (despite it seeming obvious that they aren’t, sometimes things turn out to be workable when done a certain way) and that would be fine... if they learned the facts.

    Instead, I think they’re just finding only what they want to believe. Their myopic obsession with thinness, and their corporate mindlessness (being lead by the nose by stock prices and “investors”), suggests to me that today’s Apple are not going to come away from the research with any lessons learned.

    Apple today is not the Apple that earned a reputation for brilliance and wisdom in user interface/experience research and design. Since 2013, Apple has been doing things completely opposite of all the established knowledge around human-computer interfacing for which they previously were credited. Hasn’t stopped the faithful from continuing their loyal obeisance, but that’s what belief without critical thought does.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 25 of 68
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 2,280member
    Ha ha, but it’s probably just a patent they’ll never use which is published to make sure that they got there first and have all the legal “protections” of the utterly broken US patent system.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 26 of 68
    Rayz2016 said:
    xyzzy-xxx said:
    Nearly nobody uses the Apple (Magic) Mouse

    How do you know, since Apple doesn't release figures for mouse sales?
    I know enough (pro) users - none of them use it because of erratic input - of cause there are consumers that may be using it.
    Interestingly I observed some consumers using a new Mac with track pad with the default (gesture) configuration - nearly all of them have the problem that they trigger actions without intend.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 27 of 68
    dysamoria said:
    idiotic idea from a company that has lost direction. Apple has gone down this path of forcing design changes on customers that neither improve their experience nor add anything significant to the product. They are just changes for changes sake. The headphone jack went away because? The adoption of USB C at the exclusion of other standard ports like USB A and SD cards? I hope they do adopt the glass keyboard. If it's anything like the force touch or haptic feedback it will be a dismal failure. All the legions of coders and developers who adore Macbooks will ditch them for HP and Dell. After a dismal sales meeting they will finally be forced to assess their ivory tower design ethos of putting form at the expense of function.
    Reminds me of that Friends episode where Joey uses the thesaurus to write a letter and it ended up being nothing but a bunch of unintelligible phrases linked together by punctuation. Just because you use the big boys phrases (i.e. known troll memes), doesn't mean you're any good at it.
    If you had difficulty parsing the comment you’re complaining about, that’s on you. 
    Trolls do understand each other much better, it is well known.  ;)
    edited January 31 watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 68
    Yamcha67 said:
    That sounds like an awful idea, the current MacBook keyboards aren't great and have their set of issues. Introducing glass keyboards doesn't seem like a solution to the problem at all, in fact, it may just make matters worse. Don't fix it if ain't broke, they should really stick to their old style keyboards, I'm not sure how they'll manage it thanks to that obsession with thinness but maybe it can be done. Microsoft has managed to create a superthin keyboard with great travel and tactile feedback on their Surface Pro Type Covers, I'm sure there's a way to achieve something similar on the Apple side.

    It's funny that Microsoft is actually taking Apple's place in many respects. Just look at the current Surface sales, they've been incredible for Microsoft. Microsoft has already exceeded expectations and now they are predicting 20% growth on top of that. I think they're really doing well considering that Microsoft has gotten into the hardware business very late compared to Apple. I also feel they are innovating in many more areas and in many cases outshining even Apple's Macs. The keyboards, trackpads, design are all on point and even the software has reached a stage where it's a lot like Mac OS. 

    I wish Apple would change direction. Some Mac users including myself have jumped ship, I sold my Mac for the simple reason that I just got sick and tired of paying for premiums and getting less, not only that I just feel like Microsoft now is providing a better experience for my use case. The keyboard issues, flex-gate, bent iPads, iPhone 6 performance throttling etc.. all tell us that the quality assurance has taken a dive and Apple doesn't seem to care. The recent flex-gate issue which is leading to display failure early thanks to a fragile cable is going to cost customers $600+ for repair because the cable isn't durable enough to last very long. The bent iPads will not be covered, but people are eligible for a refund within the normal period for any device. The issues with keyboards have been semi-resolved but I guess we'll have to see how the new keyboards work out. Initially, customers were forced to pay around $700 for out of warranty keyboard repairs until Apple provided free replacements later on. It's really not looking good for Apple. I'm not saying it's a failing company, it makes way too much money for these issues to make a dent in the near future but it does mean customers will suffer in the end.
    We already have a resident MS shill, btw, unless that's you, DanVM?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 68
    They’ve been working in this direction for over a decade, pretty clear where they’re going with thus. There have been a lot of patents involving virtual keyboards/touch input areas/haptic or air feedback/etc. The Touch Bar in tandem with shallower key travel and the enlarged Trackpad (which doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than working to keep taking over more real estate with the eventual goal to expand function) definitely look like the baby steps in that direction.


    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2017/05/apple-continues-to-advance-a-hybrid-notebook-with-a-reconfigurable-surface-supporting-a-virtual-keyboard-more.html

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/02/apple-talks-up-smart-bezels-live-reconfigurable-macbooks.html


    and even earlier...

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/07/apple-invents-new-flat-keyless-keyboard-for-desktops-more.html

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/05/apple-explores-keyboards-using-an-advanced-air-feedback-system.html

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/01/apple-pushes-research-into-motion-keyboards-for-macbooks.html

    http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/06/apple_touch_typing_tech_could_lead_to_backside_input_for_tablets

  • Reply 30 of 68
    danvmdanvm Posts: 791member
    Yamcha67 said:
    That sounds like an awful idea, the current MacBook keyboards aren't great and have their set of issues. Introducing glass keyboards doesn't seem like a solution to the problem at all, in fact, it may just make matters worse. Don't fix it if ain't broke, they should really stick to their old style keyboards, I'm not sure how they'll manage it thanks to that obsession with thinness but maybe it can be done. Microsoft has managed to create a superthin keyboard with great travel and tactile feedback on their Surface Pro Type Covers, I'm sure there's a way to achieve something similar on the Apple side.

    It's funny that Microsoft is actually taking Apple's place in many respects. Just look at the current Surface sales, they've been incredible for Microsoft. Microsoft has already exceeded expectations and now they are predicting 20% growth on top of that. I think they're really doing well considering that Microsoft has gotten into the hardware business very late compared to Apple. I also feel they are innovating in many more areas and in many cases outshining even Apple's Macs. The keyboards, trackpads, design are all on point and even the software has reached a stage where it's a lot like Mac OS. 

    I wish Apple would change direction. Some Mac users including myself have jumped ship, I sold my Mac for the simple reason that I just got sick and tired of paying for premiums and getting less, not only that I just feel like Microsoft now is providing a better experience for my use case. The keyboard issues, flex-gate, bent iPads, iPhone 6 performance throttling etc.. all tell us that the quality assurance has taken a dive and Apple doesn't seem to care. The recent flex-gate issue which is leading to display failure early thanks to a fragile cable is going to cost customers $600+ for repair because the cable isn't durable enough to last very long. The bent iPads will not be covered, but people are eligible for a refund within the normal period for any device. The issues with keyboards have been semi-resolved but I guess we'll have to see how the new keyboards work out. Initially, customers were forced to pay around $700 for out of warranty keyboard repairs until Apple provided free replacements later on. It's really not looking good for Apple. I'm not saying it's a failing company, it makes way too much money for these issues to make a dent in the near future but it does mean customers will suffer in the end.
    We already have a resident MS shill, btw, unless that's you, DanVM?
    No, I'm still have my sign-in name active... :wink:

    I find interesting that you consider me a MS shill, when at my household I have far more Apple devices than from MS.  Like I have posted many times, I consider myself a customer, not a fan (or shill) from MS, Apple or any other company. 

    Regarding the article, IMO, Apple keyboards have an awful tactile feedback.  Plus based in the long list of articles, quality is down too.  In my experience working with many brands, Thinkpads still #1, and miles ahead from Apple in quality and tactile feedback.  Plus they are spill resistant, even in the X1 Carbon, a device as thin an lighter than the Macbook Air.  And there is no issues with batteries attached to the keyboard as the MBP.  One of the best devices I have used. 

    After this post, I suppose I'm a "Lenovo shill", right?

    ctt_zhwilliamlondon
  • Reply 31 of 68
    BuggieBugBuggieBug Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    Apple, please, no! What did the keyboard ever do to you?
    williamlondon
  • Reply 32 of 68

    Apple’s strategy to ‘condition’ people to use ultra flat keyboards with almost zero feedback is doomed to fail.

    This is because we humans are, by nature, tactile creatures who like to grasp, feel and touch things in three dimensions. The latest butterfly keyboards don’t offer this tactile experience – and a glass panel version would be even worse! Deadening to the touch and soul.

    It’s instructive to note that of the 60 plus serious reviews of the latest MacBook Air on YouTube and in the press, only 7 of them actually praised the butterfly keyboard, while the rest were negative or lukewarm about it. Typical comments were, 'once you get used to the butterfly keyboard, it's tolerable', and 'It's not going to be everyone's taste', and 'If you like the old MacBook keyboards you may not warm to this one', and 'tactility is not this keyboard's strong point' and so on. In other words, the keyboards were damned with faint praise.

    Apple doesn’t want to hear this feedback because it conflicts with their ‘thin at all costs’ mantra. It expects – demands – that users get used to their ultra flat keyboards. It’s like the airlines forcing passengers to getting used to having less legroom and cramped seats (some airlines have even suggested passengers stand up or short flights). It has nothing to do with what customers want; it’s about what a company thinks it can get away with.

    Apple, please reverse course on your ridiculously shallow keyboards. You used to make the best notebook keyboards in the world – they provided just the right amount of responsive feedback and were almost universally loved.

    You can reclaim the title of ‘Best Keyboard’ again – but you must increase the travel of the keys by a millimetre or two. It’s not rocket science.

     

     

     

  • Reply 33 of 68
    dumptrumpdumptrump Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    The mounting issues and problems with Apple products are signs this company is more interested in making dongles and phones, rather than top-notch hardware for professionals. Now, not only do we as MBP owners have to worry about our displays dying because of an ultra cheap ribbon connector to the monitor wearing our, we also have have this keyboard nonsense to worry about. For $2,300 you should be able to count on impeccable performance and lasting quality. Quality died with Jobs.
    edited January 31 williamlondon
  • Reply 34 of 68
    macguimacgui Posts: 1,454member
    ...with the possibility of being replaced by a glass panel with raised "key" sections that acts as a rigid keyboard. 

    Hello, Lenovo. I will accept an iPhone / iPad keyboard on an iPhone / iPad, but not for a computer.

  • Reply 35 of 68
    macguimacgui Posts: 1,454member
    davgreg said:
    Amazing to me that Logitech has a model that has been sold for years that types better than the Apple keyboard, is more reliable, costs less and has illuminated keys. I am typing on one right now- K811. The only complaint I have is that it does not have user replaceable battery.

    Apple is all about fashion apparently.
    I am using one at the moment as well. While all the above is true, it's still a merely adequate keyboard. The only reason I have it is because of the illumination and three device keys.

    But I'll use it until the battery dies, which is any week now. (I got it when Logitech first shipped.)
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 68
    kevin keekevin kee Posts: 1,066member
    TomE said:
    Now we know another reason for haptic feedback - a new glass keyboard.
    I am certain Apple can make it work - as to if I would want one for production typing is another matter - the "old" keyboards, like on the Old MacBook Air are what I prefer.
    Apple Watch button is haptic, but feels like real button. I am sure Apple could make the 'virtual' keyboard feels like real keyboard but without all the dusty magnet features.
  • Reply 37 of 68
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,764member
    xyzzy-xxx said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    xyzzy-xxx said:
    Nearly nobody uses the Apple (Magic) Mouse

    How do you know, since Apple doesn't release figures for mouse sales?
    I know enough (pro) users - none of them use it because of erratic input - of cause there are consumers that may be using it.
    Interestingly I observed some consumers using a new Mac with track pad with the default (gesture) configuration - nearly all of them have the problem that they trigger actions without intend.
    To be honest, I doubt you know enough users (pro or otherwise) to gauge how popular or unpopular the Magic Mouse is. 

    Including myself, I know a whole development department using them, but I still wouldn’t say that’s a sample large enough to make a judgement. 
    edited February 1 williamlondonshaminowatto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 68
    danvm said:
    Yamcha67 said:
    That sounds like an awful idea, the current MacBook keyboards aren't great and have their set of issues. Introducing glass keyboards doesn't seem like a solution to the problem at all, in fact, it may just make matters worse. Don't fix it if ain't broke, they should really stick to their old style keyboards, I'm not sure how they'll manage it thanks to that obsession with thinness but maybe it can be done. Microsoft has managed to create a superthin keyboard with great travel and tactile feedback on their Surface Pro Type Covers, I'm sure there's a way to achieve something similar on the Apple side.

    It's funny that Microsoft is actually taking Apple's place in many respects. Just look at the current Surface sales, they've been incredible for Microsoft. Microsoft has already exceeded expectations and now they are predicting 20% growth on top of that. I think they're really doing well considering that Microsoft has gotten into the hardware business very late compared to Apple. I also feel they are innovating in many more areas and in many cases outshining even Apple's Macs. The keyboards, trackpads, design are all on point and even the software has reached a stage where it's a lot like Mac OS. 

    I wish Apple would change direction. Some Mac users including myself have jumped ship, I sold my Mac for the simple reason that I just got sick and tired of paying for premiums and getting less, not only that I just feel like Microsoft now is providing a better experience for my use case. The keyboard issues, flex-gate, bent iPads, iPhone 6 performance throttling etc.. all tell us that the quality assurance has taken a dive and Apple doesn't seem to care. The recent flex-gate issue which is leading to display failure early thanks to a fragile cable is going to cost customers $600+ for repair because the cable isn't durable enough to last very long. The bent iPads will not be covered, but people are eligible for a refund within the normal period for any device. The issues with keyboards have been semi-resolved but I guess we'll have to see how the new keyboards work out. Initially, customers were forced to pay around $700 for out of warranty keyboard repairs until Apple provided free replacements later on. It's really not looking good for Apple. I'm not saying it's a failing company, it makes way too much money for these issues to make a dent in the near future but it does mean customers will suffer in the end.
    We already have a resident MS shill, btw, unless that's you, DanVM?
    I find interesting that you consider me a MS shill, 
    Are you kidding me? You don't know yourself do you, or remember any of the exchanges we've had? [rolls eyes]
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 68
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,802member
    henrybay said:

    Apple’s strategy to ‘condition’ people to use ultra flat keyboards with almost zero feedback is doomed to fail.

    This is because we humans are, by nature, tactile creatures who like to grasp, feel and touch things in three dimensions. The latest butterfly keyboards don’t offer this tactile experience – and a glass panel version would be even worse! Deadening to the touch and soul.

    It’s instructive to note that of the 60 plus serious reviews of the latest MacBook Air on YouTube and in the press, only 7 of them actually praised the butterfly keyboard, while the rest were negative or lukewarm about it. Typical comments were, 'once you get used to the butterfly keyboard, it's tolerable', and 'It's not going to be everyone's taste', and 'If you like the old MacBook keyboards you may not warm to this one', and 'tactility is not this keyboard's strong point' and so on. In other words, the keyboards were damned with faint praise.

    Apple doesn’t want to hear this feedback because it conflicts with their ‘thin at all costs’ mantra. It expects – demands – that users get used to their ultra flat keyboards. It’s like the airlines forcing passengers to getting used to having less legroom and cramped seats (some airlines have even suggested passengers stand up or short flights). It has nothing to do with what customers want; it’s about what a company thinks it can get away with.

    Apple, please reverse course on your ridiculously shallow keyboards. You used to make the best notebook keyboards in the world – they provided just the right amount of responsive feedback and were almost universally loved.

    You can reclaim the title of ‘Best Keyboard’ again – but you must increase the travel of the keys by a millimetre or two. It’s not rocket science.

     

     

     

    I actually think that Apple would be very surprised by the jump in MBP sales if they redesigned it to be a little bit bigger and added the 2015 keyboard, MagSafe, and an SD Slot.   You know make a real Pro machine designed for use.   Yes I know that they have strong MBP sales that incremental go up year to year.    I'm attribute that to Apple having a strong retail presence with their stores in locations with a lot of rich shoppers who take what Apple sells on trust.    I hear all the time about long time Mac users like John Gruber who are on an earlier MBP - 2014 in his case.    I know I would buy one.   Now I'm just sitting on my MBP 2015 - the last good one.   
    henrybay
  • Reply 40 of 68
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,802member
    danvm said:
    Yamcha67 said:
    That sounds like an awful idea, the current MacBook keyboards aren't great and have their set of issues. Introducing glass keyboards doesn't seem like a solution to the problem at all, in fact, it may just make matters worse. Don't fix it if ain't broke, they should really stick to their old style keyboards, I'm not sure how they'll manage it thanks to that obsession with thinness but maybe it can be done. Microsoft has managed to create a superthin keyboard with great travel and tactile feedback on their Surface Pro Type Covers, I'm sure there's a way to achieve something similar on the Apple side.

    It's funny that Microsoft is actually taking Apple's place in many respects. Just look at the current Surface sales, they've been incredible for Microsoft. Microsoft has already exceeded expectations and now they are predicting 20% growth on top of that. I think they're really doing well considering that Microsoft has gotten into the hardware business very late compared to Apple. I also feel they are innovating in many more areas and in many cases outshining even Apple's Macs. The keyboards, trackpads, design are all on point and even the software has reached a stage where it's a lot like Mac OS. 

    I wish Apple would change direction. Some Mac users including myself have jumped ship, I sold my Mac for the simple reason that I just got sick and tired of paying for premiums and getting less, not only that I just feel like Microsoft now is providing a better experience for my use case. The keyboard issues, flex-gate, bent iPads, iPhone 6 performance throttling etc.. all tell us that the quality assurance has taken a dive and Apple doesn't seem to care. The recent flex-gate issue which is leading to display failure early thanks to a fragile cable is going to cost customers $600+ for repair because the cable isn't durable enough to last very long. The bent iPads will not be covered, but people are eligible for a refund within the normal period for any device. The issues with keyboards have been semi-resolved but I guess we'll have to see how the new keyboards work out. Initially, customers were forced to pay around $700 for out of warranty keyboard repairs until Apple provided free replacements later on. It's really not looking good for Apple. I'm not saying it's a failing company, it makes way too much money for these issues to make a dent in the near future but it does mean customers will suffer in the end.
    We already have a resident MS shill, btw, unless that's you, DanVM?
    No, I'm still have my sign-in name active... :wink:

    I find interesting that you consider me a MS shill, when at my household I have far more Apple devices than from MS.  Like I have posted many times, I consider myself a customer, not a fan (or shill) from MS, Apple or any other company. 

    Regarding the article, IMO, Apple keyboards have an awful tactile feedback.  Plus based in the long list of articles, quality is down too.  In my experience working with many brands, Thinkpads still #1, and miles ahead from Apple in quality and tactile feedback.  Plus they are spill resistant, even in the X1 Carbon, a device as thin an lighter than the Macbook Air.  And there is no issues with batteries attached to the keyboard as the MBP.  One of the best devices I have used. 

    After this post, I suppose I'm a "Lenovo shill", right?

    After my MBP 2015 gives out, I will have to give the Lenovo a look.   I have a theory that a few of the posters here who attack those who post Critical comments are actually Long Investors in APPL and more motivated by keeping the stop price up.   They are caught up in the idea that Apple's management can't make a mistake or its dangerous to point these things out.   They really aren't motivated by the quality and experience of the products so of course they think that Apple should keep prices and profit margins as high as possible while reducing component costs.
    henrybay
Sign In or Register to comment.