Apple may be a stickler for security, but they really haven't been fans of DRM. Steve Jobs famously and routinely lamented the movie studios and music labels forcing Apple to implement it on iTunes. It was they who insisted on locking up content delivery in order to charge more. He argued (successfully, in the case of music) that charging a reasonable fee per title was a much better strategy to minimizing piracy. He was right.
Gruber? I wasn't aware he had any issue with Steve Jobs. To me it has nothing to do with being a "Steve fan" or not, tho you might disagree?
I thought you'd be more familiar with Mr. Jobs, marketing, and his reality distortion field. IMHO I don't think it's Gruber being anti-Steve as much as your misunderstanding of what drove Mr. Jobs to say some of the things he did. It wasn't always put out there at face value even if he would hope you took it literally and thus served his purpose.
BTW, is it possible to make a copy of a 4K video playing on a 4K monitor with an 8K video camera, then "save" the video as a 4K? Seems to me that's one way around the issue.
That’s how I got my 4K copy of “Cry Cry Again”. Not as good as “Deathblow” though.
Apple may be a stickler for security, but they really haven't been fans of DRM. Steve Jobs famously and routinely lamented the movie studios and music labels forcing Apple to implement it on iTunes. It was they who insisted on locking up content delivery in order to charge more. He argued (successfully, in the case of music) that charging a reasonable fee per title was a much better strategy to minimizing piracy. He was right.
Gruber? I wasn't aware he had any issue with Steve Jobs. To me it has nothing to do with being a "Steve fan" or not, tho you might disagree?
I thought you'd be more familiar with Mr. Jobs, marketing, and his reality distortion field. IMHO I don't think it's Gruber being anti-Steve as much as your misunderstanding of what drove Mr. Jobs to say some of the things he did. It wasn't always put out there at face value even if he would hope you took it literally and thus served his purpose.
You didn’t mention that a couple of years later Apple dropped DRM:
Is it not possible they just used an HDMI HDCP stripper box and a 4K capture card? I thought that's how these things are typically bypassed.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
I cannot believe that this "story" spread so far on various Apple fan sites like this and so few people have pointed this out.
One would think that somewhere, someone writing one of these "articles" would have peeked outside of the Apple bubble to realize this.
There is nothing special about an Apple TV - no matter what level of DRM/encryption it uses internally, that means jack once it is sent out of the HDMI output. Apple cannot control what happens after it escapes their device.
Essentially, for under $150 anyone can use a consumer grade video capture device (usually marketed towards recording video game footage) and the right $10 splitter and you can record absolutely anything you can display on your TV.
All these articles and comments speculating about "hacking" Apple TV's have given me quite the belly-laugh, frankly, because I just cannot believe how far folks are going in their assumptions and speculation when the answer is so blindingly simple, unless you somehow believe that Apple devices are "special" and don't have the same technical limitations as any other device that outputs to your TV.
Is it not possible they just used an HDMI HDCP stripper box and a 4K capture card? I thought that's how these things are typically bypassed.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
I cannot believe that this "story" spread so far on various Apple fan sites like this and so few people have pointed this out.
One would think that somewhere, someone writing one of these "articles" would have peeked outside of the Apple bubble to realize this.
There is nothing special about an Apple TV - no matter what level of DRM/encryption it uses internally, that means jack once it is sent out of the HDMI output. Apple cannot control what happens after it escapes their device.
Essentially, for under $150 anyone can use a consumer grade video capture device (usually marketed towards recording video game footage) and the right $10 splitter and you can record absolutely anything you can display on your TV.
All these articles and comments speculating about "hacking" Apple TV's have given me quite the belly-laugh, frankly, because I just cannot believe how far folks are going in their assumptions and speculation when the answer is so blindingly simple, unless you somehow believe that Apple devices are "special" and don't have the same technical limitations as any other device that outputs to your TV.
Or, instead of a rant, a “belly-laugh” and more nonsense, you could go to the Torrentfreak article (linked in the piece) for more on why they think the DRM was broken.
In short, there is a sourcing difference between web-rip, which would involve a capture device, and web-dl, which is a straight capture of the bitstream. The files in question are said to be the latter.
Is it not possible they just used an HDMI HDCP stripper box and a 4K capture card? I thought that's how these things are typically bypassed.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
I cannot believe that this "story" spread so far on various Apple fan sites like this and so few people have pointed this out.
One would think that somewhere, someone writing one of these "articles" would have peeked outside of the Apple bubble to realize this.
There is nothing special about an Apple TV - no matter what level of DRM/encryption it uses internally, that means jack once it is sent out of the HDMI output. Apple cannot control what happens after it escapes their device.
Essentially, for under $150 anyone can use a consumer grade video capture device (usually marketed towards recording video game footage) and the right $10 splitter and you can record absolutely anything you can display on your TV.
All these articles and comments speculating about "hacking" Apple TV's have given me quite the belly-laugh, frankly, because I just cannot believe how far folks are going in their assumptions and speculation when the answer is so blindingly simple, unless you somehow believe that Apple devices are "special" and don't have the same technical limitations as any other device that outputs to your TV.
I’ve noticed that 99% of the members here believe that Apple and their devices are “Godsend”, so don’t be so surprised.
Is it not possible they just used an HDMI HDCP stripper box and a 4K capture card? I thought that's how these things are typically bypassed.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
I cannot believe that this "story" spread so far on various Apple fan sites like this and so few people have pointed this out.
One would think that somewhere, someone writing one of these "articles" would have peeked outside of the Apple bubble to realize this.
There is nothing special about an Apple TV - no matter what level of DRM/encryption it uses internally, that means jack once it is sent out of the HDMI output. Apple cannot control what happens after it escapes their device.
Essentially, for under $150 anyone can use a consumer grade video capture device (usually marketed towards recording video game footage) and the right $10 splitter and you can record absolutely anything you can display on your TV.
All these articles and comments speculating about "hacking" Apple TV's have given me quite the belly-laugh, frankly, because I just cannot believe how far folks are going in their assumptions and speculation when the answer is so blindingly simple, unless you somehow believe that Apple devices are "special" and don't have the same technical limitations as any other device that outputs to your TV.
Or, instead of a rant, a “belly-laugh” and more nonsense, you could go to the Torrentfreak article (linked in the piece) for more on why they think the DRM was broken.
In short, there is a sourcing difference between web-rip, which would involve a capture device, and web-dl, which is a straight capture of the bitstream. The files in question are said to be the latter.
Ah thanks, that makes sense. Otherwise it'd be HEVC that's decoded by the ATV, transmitted over HDMI as (whatever the letter salad video format HDMI uses is) and then re-captured and then re-encoded again as H265 or whatever.
On a side note, following those links over to Reddit, there are several others out now including a few Bond films and a couple others.
I wish people would stop saying 4K isn’t available on an iOS device. What do you think is on your iPad Pro (2018) when you’re pushing it out to a 4K monitor? When you unplug your monitor, you think the file magically shrinks to 1080p just to play on your screen? If you plug your monitor in again the file grows to 4K? That 4K file is always on your iPad. Also...check the file sizes on your HDR iPhones. Apple is pushing out a 4K version to HDR iphones as well. Of the 4K iTunes movies I own, they have identical sizes whether you download them on an iPad Pro or iPhone X.
I wish people would stop saying 4K isn’t available on an iOS device. What do you think is on your iPad Pro (2018) when you’re pushing it out to a 4K monitor? When you unplug your monitor, you think the file magically shrinks to 1080p just to play on your screen? If you plug your monitor in again the file grows to 4K? That 4K file is always on your iPad. Also...check the file sizes on your HDR iPhones. Apple is pushing out a 4K version to HDR iphones as well. Of the 4K iTunes movies I own, they have identical sizes whether you download them on an iPad Pro or iPhone X.
That's because it isn't. You've got a large number of facts wrong, here. The video file on your iPad Pro or iPhone X is 1080p, and is smaller than the total file size streamed to an Apple TV without using an iPad as an intermediary device. If you've got a router capable of doing so, this is easy to check.
Just because your iPad is connecting to the Apple TV at 4K resolution, doesn't mean the file that it's playing is 4K. iTunes 4K files aren't available for download in full to a device, period. Streaming in chunks only, with older chunks deleted as the movie plays.
I wish people would stop saying 4K isn’t available on an iOS device. What do you think is on your iPad Pro (2018) when you’re pushing it out to a 4K monitor? When you unplug your monitor, you think the file magically shrinks to 1080p just to play on your screen? If you plug your monitor in again the file grows to 4K? That 4K file is always on your iPad. Also...check the file sizes on your HDR iPhones. Apple is pushing out a 4K version to HDR iphones as well. Of the 4K iTunes movies I own, they have identical sizes whether you download them on an iPad Pro or iPhone X.
It’s a 1080p file that is downloaded on your phone/iPad.
That's because it isn't. You've got a large number of facts wrong, here. The video file on your iPad Pro or iPhone X is 1080p, and is smaller than the total file size streamed to an Apple TV without using an iPad as an intermediary device. If you've got a router capable of doing so, this is easy to check.
Apple is very clear about iPad (2018’s capabilities). They often remark how it can power a 4K and even a 5K monitor. So when I say “pushing out to a 4K monitor” I literally mean, hooking your iPad Pro (2018) up to a 4K monitor via USB-C. This is seen in various promotional shots and this is what I was referring to in my comment when I said “pushing out to a 4K monitor”. I didn’t write “Push to a TV via airplay” or “use an Apple TV”.
As it pertains to video...again, Apple is very clear what the iPad Pro (2018) is capable of. To quote an Apple Support doc: “Find and watch movies with 4K, HDR, Dolby Vision, or Dolby Atmos” , “You can buy or rent movies from the iTunes Store in high-definition (HD) or 4K resolution formats....iPad Pro (11-inch) and iPad Pro 12.9-inch (3rd generation) can play 4K, HDR, or Dolby Vision content to a compatible connected display or television.”
Just a simple check on an iPad Pro (2018) device storage (Settings>General>iPad Storage>Review iTunes Videos) shows that the iPad Pro (2018) and iPhone X don’t download your standard 1080p files from iTunes for some 4K HDR movies. In fact, these devices download movies with file sizes nearly 2x of the standard 1080p file. For example, 4K iTunes movies like ‘Batman Begins’ and ‘Inception’ download for 9.23GB and 10.99GB respectively on both an iPad Pro (2018) and iPhone XS Max. On iTunes, these same movies at 1080p are stated as only being 5.64GB and 6.68GB in size. So...how does one explain that huge difference in file size?
Looking at a router to gauge what kind of quality you are streaming doesn’t by any means indicate you’ve gauged the pixel dimensions of said file. Apple (like any video streaming service) does variable bit streaming. Plug in your AppleTV to your Mac and run Xcode and you'll see that the AppleTV brings in a range of quality for the 1080p resolution .... but nearly always higher than what can be downloaded on your iOS device. Expect a minimum of 25% improvement all the way up to and beyond 200% of the standard 5-7mbps bit rate for an iTunes 1080p download that you find on your Mac hard drive your local iOS storage. Streaming quality is very different from download quality in iTunes, but always errs higher. Netflix is similar in practice with downloads of shows taking less bandwidth than if you were streaming.
HDR alone does not nearly double the data rate of a 1080p video file. At best you will add 20% more. So if you think that these huge files are still 1080p but HDR, that’s a horrifying execution of compression at huge cost to Apple. Makes no sense. So, back to my original point: if you have an HDR device like an iPad Pro (2018) and iPhone X...you’re often downloading the full 4K video muxed with that HDR. When you plug in your iPad Pro (2018) to a 4K monitor, you are pushing out 4K (like the Apple Support document says it does). When you play the movie on your iPad, it’s a 4K image shrunk down to iPad Pro screen dimensions. Zoom in on the video (double tap) and rotate your device portrait. The hyper zoomed 4K detail is all there...as is the HDR.
Apple doesn’t say iPhone X or iPad Pros that have HDR display technology also display 4K resolution because they legally can’t do so. These devices obviously don’t have the pixels (but again, zoom in on one of those 2x 1080p file sized videos and rotate to portrait, you’ll see a window into that 4K HDR pixel detail). If I was a lawyer at Apple I wouldn’t be labeling/amending the UX or marketing copy any differently than they do now.
FYI: You’ll know you are getting a full 4K file with HDR when the progress bar does NOT include the file size in the download tab within the iTunes iOS app on your iPad Pro (2018) or iPhone XS Max. Also...I’ve noticed with movies not available in HDR, but are still available in 4K, you aren’t getting to download the 4K, rather just the 1080p resolution instead.
These are a 'large number of facts' I have right. To re-iterate, I wish everyone would stop saying iOS doesn’t allow you to download a 4K iTunes movie file when clearly, Apple support documents, file download sizes and video quality indicate otherwise.
That's because it isn't. You've got a large number of facts wrong, here. The video file on your iPad Pro or iPhone X is 1080p, and is smaller than the total file size streamed to an Apple TV without using an iPad as an intermediary device. If you've got a router capable of doing so, this is easy to check.
Apple is very clear about iPad (2018’s capabilities). They often remark how it can power a 4K and even a 5K monitor. So when I say “pushing out to a 4K monitor” I literally mean, hooking your iPad Pro (2018) up to a 4K monitor via USB-C. This is seen in various promotional shots and this is what I was referring to in my comment when I said “pushing out to a 4K monitor”. I didn’t write “Push to a TV via airplay” or “use an Apple TV”.
As it pertains to video...again, Apple is very clear what the iPad Pro (2018) is capable of. To quote an Apple Support doc: “Find and watch movies with 4K, HDR, Dolby Vision, or Dolby Atmos” , “You can buy or rent movies from the iTunes Store in high-definition (HD) or 4K resolution formats....iPad Pro (11-inch) and iPad Pro 12.9-inch (3rd generation) can play 4K, HDR, or Dolby Vision content to a compatible connected display or television.”
Just a simple check on an iPad Pro (2018) device storage (Settings>General>iPad Storage>Review iTunes Videos) shows that the iPad Pro (2018) and iPhone X don’t download your standard 1080p files from iTunes for some 4K HDR movies. In fact, these devices download movies with file sizes nearly 2x of the standard 1080p file. For example, 4K iTunes movies like ‘Batman Begins’ and ‘Inception’ download for 9.23GB and 10.99GB respectively on both an iPad Pro (2018) and iPhone XS Max. On iTunes, these same movies at 1080p are stated as only being 5.64GB and 6.68GB in size. So...how does one explain that huge difference in file size?
Looking at a router to gauge what kind of quality you are streaming doesn’t by any means indicate you’ve gauged the pixel dimensions of said file. Apple (like any video streaming service) does variable bit streaming. Plug in your AppleTV to your Mac and run Xcode and you'll see that the AppleTV brings in a range of quality for the 1080p resolution .... but nearly always higher than what can be downloaded on your iOS device. Expect a minimum of 25% improvement all the way up to and beyond 200% of the standard 5-7mbps bit rate for an iTunes 1080p download that you find on your Mac hard drive your local iOS storage. Streaming quality is very different from download quality in iTunes, but always errs higher. Netflix is similar in practice with downloads of shows taking less bandwidth than if you were streaming.
HDR alone does not nearly double the data rate of a 1080p video file. At best you will add 20% more. So if you think that these huge files are still 1080p but HDR, that’s a horrifying execution of compression at huge cost to Apple. Makes no sense. So, back to my original point: if you have an HDR device like an iPad Pro (2018) and iPhone X...you’re often downloading the full 4K video muxed with that HDR. When you plug in your iPad Pro (2018) to a 4K monitor, you are pushing out 4K (like the Apple Support document says it does). When you play the movie on your iPad, it’s a 4K image shrunk down to iPad Pro screen dimensions. Zoom in on the video (double tap) and rotate your device portrait. The hyper zoomed 4K detail is all there...as is the HDR.
Apple doesn’t say iPhone X or iPad Pros that have HDR display technology also display 4K resolution because they legally can’t do so. These devices obviously don’t have the pixels (but again, zoom in on one of those 2x 1080p file sized videos and rotate to portrait, you’ll see a window into that 4K HDR pixel detail). If I was a lawyer at Apple I wouldn’t be labeling/amending the UX or marketing copy any differently than they do now.
FYI: You’ll know you are getting a full 4K file with HDR when the progress bar does NOT include the file size in the download tab within the iTunes iOS app on your iPad Pro (2018) or iPhone XS Max. Also...I’ve noticed with movies not available in HDR, but are still available in 4K, you aren’t getting to download the 4K, rather just the 1080p resolution instead.
These are a 'large number of facts' I have right. To re-iterate, I wish everyone would stop saying iOS doesn’t allow you to download a 4K iTunes movie file when clearly, Apple support documents, file download sizes and video quality indicate otherwise.
Fine. Let's go ahead and do this. It's fortuitous that you picked Inception, because I've got the numbers for that.
1080p, no HDR and HDR for Inception, you have right at 6.68 and 10.99GB. However, the 4K HDR of Inception streamed to an Apple TV from Apple's servers is 19.9 GB. Even if you say that there's a 20 percent overhead for streaming, which there does not appear to be as it's closer to 5 percent, that's still 50% more data from the 4K file streaming, versus the 1080p download. Higher resolution, higher bit-rate = more data.
So, no. You're still not downloading that 4K file on your iOS device, regardless of what you think. Feel free to talk to Apple about it -- we have been for some time.
Last paragraph: "You can download a local copy of an HD movie to your iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, Mac, or PC, and you might be able to download HDR and Dolby Vision versions to your iOS devices, but you can't download a 4K version."
Comments
I thought you'd be more familiar with Mr. Jobs, marketing, and his reality distortion field. IMHO I don't think it's Gruber being anti-Steve as much as your misunderstanding of what drove Mr. Jobs to say some of the things he did. It wasn't always put out there at face value even if he would hope you took it literally and thus served his purpose.
http://www.brighthand.com/news/apple-removes-drm-restrictions-from-itunes/
In short, there is a sourcing difference between web-rip, which would involve a capture device, and web-dl, which is a straight capture of the bitstream. The files in question are said to be the latter.
On a side note, following those links over to Reddit, there are several others out now including a few Bond films and a couple others.
Just because your iPad is connecting to the Apple TV at 4K resolution, doesn't mean the file that it's playing is 4K. iTunes 4K files aren't available for download in full to a device, period. Streaming in chunks only, with older chunks deleted as the movie plays.
Apple is very clear about iPad (2018’s capabilities). They often remark how it can power a 4K and even a 5K monitor. So when I say “pushing out to a 4K monitor” I literally mean, hooking your iPad Pro (2018) up to a 4K monitor via USB-C. This is seen in various promotional shots and this is what I was referring to in my comment when I said “pushing out to a 4K monitor”. I didn’t write “Push to a TV via airplay” or “use an Apple TV”.
As it pertains to video...again, Apple is very clear what the iPad Pro (2018) is capable of. To quote an Apple Support doc: “Find and watch movies with 4K, HDR, Dolby Vision, or Dolby Atmos” , “You can buy or rent movies from the iTunes Store in high-definition (HD) or 4K resolution formats....iPad Pro (11-inch) and iPad Pro 12.9-inch (3rd generation) can play 4K, HDR, or Dolby Vision content to a compatible connected display or television.”
Just a simple check on an iPad Pro (2018) device storage (Settings>General>iPad Storage>Review iTunes Videos) shows that the iPad Pro (2018) and iPhone X don’t download your standard 1080p files from iTunes for some 4K HDR movies. In fact, these devices download movies with file sizes nearly 2x of the standard 1080p file. For example, 4K iTunes movies like ‘Batman Begins’ and ‘Inception’ download for 9.23GB and 10.99GB respectively on both an iPad Pro (2018) and iPhone XS Max. On iTunes, these same movies at 1080p are stated as only being 5.64GB and 6.68GB in size. So...how does one explain that huge difference in file size?
Looking at a router to gauge what kind of quality you are streaming doesn’t by any means indicate you’ve gauged the pixel dimensions of said file. Apple (like any video streaming service) does variable bit streaming. Plug in your AppleTV to your Mac and run Xcode and you'll see that the AppleTV brings in a range of quality for the 1080p resolution .... but nearly always higher than what can be downloaded on your iOS device. Expect a minimum of 25% improvement all the way up to and beyond 200% of the standard 5-7mbps bit rate for an iTunes 1080p download that you find on your Mac hard drive your local iOS storage. Streaming quality is very different from download quality in iTunes, but always errs higher. Netflix is similar in practice with downloads of shows taking less bandwidth than if you were streaming.
HDR alone does not nearly double the data rate of a 1080p video file. At best you will add 20% more. So if you think that these huge files are still 1080p but HDR, that’s a horrifying execution of compression at huge cost to Apple. Makes no sense. So, back to my original point: if you have an HDR device like an iPad Pro (2018) and iPhone X...you’re often downloading the full 4K video muxed with that HDR. When you plug in your iPad Pro (2018) to a 4K monitor, you are pushing out 4K (like the Apple Support document says it does). When you play the movie on your iPad, it’s a 4K image shrunk down to iPad Pro screen dimensions. Zoom in on the video (double tap) and rotate your device portrait. The hyper zoomed 4K detail is all there...as is the HDR.
Apple doesn’t say iPhone X or iPad Pros that have HDR display technology also display 4K resolution because they legally can’t do so. These devices obviously don’t have the pixels (but again, zoom in on one of those 2x 1080p file sized videos and rotate to portrait, you’ll see a window into that 4K HDR pixel detail). If I was a lawyer at Apple I wouldn’t be labeling/amending the UX or marketing copy any differently than they do now.
FYI: You’ll know you are getting a full 4K file with HDR when the progress bar does NOT include the file size in the download tab within the iTunes iOS app on your iPad Pro (2018) or iPhone XS Max. Also...I’ve noticed with movies not available in HDR, but are still available in 4K, you aren’t getting to download the 4K, rather just the 1080p resolution instead.
These are a 'large number of facts' I have right. To re-iterate, I wish everyone would stop saying iOS doesn’t allow you to download a 4K iTunes movie file when clearly, Apple support documents, file download sizes and video quality indicate otherwise.
1080p, no HDR and HDR for Inception, you have right at 6.68 and 10.99GB. However, the 4K HDR of Inception streamed to an Apple TV from Apple's servers is 19.9 GB. Even if you say that there's a 20 percent overhead for streaming, which there does not appear to be as it's closer to 5 percent, that's still 50% more data from the 4K file streaming, versus the 1080p download. Higher resolution, higher bit-rate = more data.
Last paragraph: "You can download a local copy of an HD movie to your iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, Mac, or PC, and you might be able to download HDR and Dolby Vision versions to your iOS devices, but you can't download a 4K version."