Citigroup bailed on Apple Card because of worries about profits

Posted:
in iPhone edited May 28
Citigroup was in the running to become the U.S. financial partner for the Apple Card, but abandoned the effort late into negotiations because of worries about "acceptable profit," a report claimed on Tuesday.

Apple Card on iPhone XS


Other interested bidders included Barclays, Synchrony and JP Morgan Chase, said CNBC, citing multiple sources. Citigroup's exact worries were unmentioned, but it's suggested that the Apple Card may have been unattractive because of a lack of fees, the potential for lower interest rates, and app-based features that help people avoid debt or pay it down faster.





Apple introduced the Apple Card at its March 25 press event, partnering with Goldman Sachs. The card should launch in the U.S. sometime this summer, and while it will primarily be digital -- letting people do same-day signups on their iPhone -- there will also be a real-world titanium version that links with Apple's Wallet app via NFC.

The Apple Card will in fact be Goldman Sachs' first-ever credit card, a move into consumer finance intended to offset declining trading revenues. That should in fact make it a safer bet versus Citi, CNBC suggested, since it doesn't have to overhaul any technology or jeopardize existing profit streams. At the same time, it will suddenly have to serve millions of card customers, and doesn't have any experience in the field.

"Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 35
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 7,162member
    Credit card companies make tons of money on late fees, from the people who can least afford it. Then they raise the APR to ungodly heights because of it. CDs are paying less than 3% yet credit cards are charging 17-18-19% for revolving credit. That’s getting close to Payday and Car Title loan sharks.
    edited May 28 StrangeDaysjbdragonracerhomie3JWSCdysamoriatokyojimuiqatedowatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 35
    Mariner8Mariner8 Posts: 5member
    ... a lack of fees, the potential for lower interest rates, and app-based features that help people avoid debt or pay it down faster.

    This is the best ad for a financial product I’ve ever seen!
    rob531stMacProracerhomie3lostkiwiolssmiffy31montrosemacscharlesgresbeowulfschmidt
  • Reply 3 of 35
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,074member
    Mariner8 said:
    ... a lack of fees, the potential for lower interest rates, and app-based features that help people avoid debt or pay it down faster.

    This is the best ad for a financial product I’ve ever seen!
    Absolutely true!!!
    olsJWSCwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 35
    It should worry everyone that all the normal entities in cc financing took a pill and Apple ended up with Goldman Sachs.  Goldman.Sachs.  Call me cynical, but I feel Goldman, in typical Goldman fashion, found a way to make this venture potentially profitable in ways the others didn't.  How that potential profitability will affect cardholders... it's Goldman.  I don't have confidence the affect will be positive.  

    Hopefully I'm wrong because at the end of the day it's average people that could be affected.  Maybe Goldman has cha-  

    "Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a Goldman Sachs spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."

    ↑↑ Should put everybody on edge.
    edited May 28 gatorguyairnerdJWSCdysamoria
  • Reply 5 of 35
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,074member
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."

    USA Today, May 9, 2019

    Before people start screaming about this being political, just think about what AI is saying in this article about Citigroup. Credit Card companies are today's LEGAL loansharks and very few people in our government are doing anything to stop it. 

    "Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a Goldman Sachs spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."

    At least there is one company trying to buck the trend. I'm sure Goldman Sachs and Apple are still making some money on this deal but like medical insurance companies, there's no reason why credit cad companies should be making a vulgar amount of money doing practically nothing.
    AppleishStrangeDayslostkiwimontrosemacsJWSCdysamoriawatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 35
    1st1st Posts: 382member
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."
    They should cap interest rates of those dollar mart or similar outfit ads for "20 dollar for 1000l payday loan instead. Barking on the wrong tree IMHO. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 35
    AppleishAppleish Posts: 128member
    rob53 said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."

    USA Today, May 9, 2019

    Before people start screaming about this being political, just think about what AI is saying in this article about Citigroup. Credit Card companies are today's LEGAL loansharks and very few people in our government are doing anything to stop it. 

    "Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a Goldman Sachs spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."

    At least there is one company trying to buck the trend. I'm sure Goldman Sachs and Apple are still making some money on this deal but like medical insurance companies, there's no reason why credit cad companies should be making a vulgar amount of money doing practically nothing.
    Agreed. I for one am looking forward to cancelling Apple's other credit card partner. As bad a rep as Goldman Sachs has, Barclay is basically a criminal enterprise. 
    edited May 28
  • Reply 8 of 35
    ....As bad a rep as Goldman Sachs has, Barclay is basically a criminal enterprise. 
    On the other hand, my new Barclay-backed UBER credit card pays me 4% back on all dining and bars. This adds up quickly. Of course, for this to be profitable for me, I have to carry no balance and incur no late fees. I make sure of this by having automatic full balance payments made from my checking account, which itself has overdraft protection. You can make even the most usurious credit cards work for you, but you have to play the game better than they do.
    jbdragonchemengin1watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 35
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,637member
    I am no Goldman Sachs fan by any measure, but I am far less a fan of Citibank. This company looks for any way to extract interest out of you. This is old, but relevant. 

    Back in the day before you could make electronic payments, we use to have Citibank for our American Airline CC. My wife used it all the time for work travel so we always paid it off. All of a sudden we started get hit with interest even though we paid in full. Call them up ask why, they said the payment was late, like by a day and some times longer depending which day in the week the due date fell. Even though we always paid the bill ~3 days before it was due, i.e. dropped it in the mail at the post office, just like all our other CC and bills. For some reason Citibank was the only one arriving late. 

    What I eventually figure out, Citibank did not consider it paid until they deposited your check, so if the due date was Saturday and they did not deposit it Friday when the payment arrived and deposited it Monday you got nails for 2 days of interest, plus of the entire next billing cycle you were charge interest for the average daily balance. So we backup the payment day to 5 days or made sure if would arrive 2 days prior to a weekend due date. But the problem persisted, I complained to them and informed them US law considers a bill paid based on the post mark on the envelop not when it arrives at their processing facility (since US mail at the time could be delayed for lots of reason consumers were not to be penalize for late payment if it was post marked prior to the payment due date). When I ask them to what the post mark was on the envelop they claim they did not have it as far as they were concern it was late. At this point I dumped them as CC company and never looked back. 

    I had second run in with them which I had not choice in. I had Employee Stock Purchase Plan with a company I worked at and Smith Barney was the holding company for the stock and Citibank bought them a few years into the plan. Once Citibank took over, it took forever to get my money when I sold stock. Smith Barney use to allow electronic deposit of funds at no cost, when Citibank took over, they would charge you $50 to do deposit wire transfer. When you are only making sometimes a few hundred on a ESPP transaction it was not worth giving Citibank $50, so they would mail you a check. Those check would take 2 to 3 weeks to get, even though it only takes 3 days to clear the stock transaction. I caught them sitting on the check, they used a stamping machine and it dates the envelop when they put on the stamp. Many times the envelops were stamped 3 to 4 days after the sale as you would expect, but the check would not arrive for a week or two later. When called on this they blamed the post office. 

    Citibank most likely passed on the deal because Apple would have held them to a higher standard, and Apple would encourage people to pay off the card.  
    edited May 28 lostkiwimontrosemacscharlesgresJWSCdysamoriawatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 35
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,637member
    rob53 said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."

    USA Today, May 9, 2019

    Before people start screaming about this being political, just think about what AI is saying in this article about Citigroup. Credit Card companies are today's LEGAL loansharks and very few people in our government are doing anything to stop it. 

    "Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a Goldman Sachs spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."

    At least there is one company trying to buck the trend. I'm sure Goldman Sachs and Apple are still making some money on this deal but like medical insurance companies, there's no reason why credit cad companies should be making a vulgar amount of money doing practically nothing.
    I will tell you again, like the last time you brought this up, you only pay interest if you are buying things you can not afford. If you use a CC to delay payment by 30 days and use someone else money for 30 days and pay it off then you do not pay interest. This is not a hard concept to understand. 

    The reason CC interest rates are high due is to the fact it is unsecure loan of money that any one can walk away from and people do every day. If you are willing to pay high interest rate on a card to helping those who choose to walk way from their debts.

    Stop expecting the government to fix your problem, learn how to manage money.

    This is why interest rates are high


    edited May 28 airnerdJWSCelectrosoftchemengin1electricchairrepairmandesignr
  • Reply 11 of 35
    1st said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."
    They should cap interest rates of those dollar mart or similar outfit ads for "20 dollar for 1000l payday loan instead. Barking on the wrong tree IMHO. 
    Christ those two are just insufferable. WAHHH FAIRNESSS WAHHH.

    The problem with their whole act is there are tons of pathetic people who actually think like this.

    How about: Personal Responsibility. GASP! Don't fucking use a credit card and not pay it off assholes!
    lkruppairnerdJWSCdesignrwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 35
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,894member
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."

    USA Today, May 9, 2019

    Before people start screaming about this being political, just think about what AI is saying in this article about Citigroup. Credit Card companies are today's LEGAL loansharks and very few people in our government are doing anything to stop it. 

    "Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a Goldman Sachs spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."

    At least there is one company trying to buck the trend. I'm sure Goldman Sachs and Apple are still making some money on this deal but like medical insurance companies, there's no reason why credit cad companies should be making a vulgar amount of money doing practically nothing.
    I will tell you again, like the last time you brought this up, you only pay interest if you are buying things you can not afford. If you use a CC to delay payment by 30 days and use someone else money for 30 days and pay it off then you do not pay interest. This is not a hard concept to understand. 

    The reason CC interest rates are high due is to the fact it is unsecure loan of money that any one can walk away from and people do every day. If you are willing to pay high interest rate on a card to helping those who choose to walk way from their debts.

    Stop expecting the government to fix your problem, learn how to manage money.
    Maestro, are mortgages also for people buying things they can't afford? Perhaps unless you're wealthy by birth or whatever renting is the way we should all go until we can save up the 100K plus to buy a starter home. I would guess that's your suggestion. 
    Solidysamoriaroundaboutnowtyler82
  • Reply 13 of 35
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 7,162member
    1st said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."
    They should cap interest rates of those dollar mart or similar outfit ads for "20 dollar for 1000l payday loan instead. Barking on the wrong tree IMHO. 
    Christ those two are just insufferable. WAHHH FAIRNESSS WAHHH.

    The problem with their whole act is there are tons of pathetic people who actually think like this.

    How about: Personal Responsibility. GASP! Don't fucking use a credit card and not pay it off assholes!
    A recent article states that 25% of Americans are using credit cards for basic necessities. On other words going into debt just to stay alive. In my book that’s called living beyond your means.
    JWSCSolityler82designrwatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 35
    kruegdudekruegdude Posts: 340member
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."

    USA Today, May 9, 2019

    Before people start screaming about this being political, just think about what AI is saying in this article about Citigroup. Credit Card companies are today's LEGAL loansharks and very few people in our government are doing anything to stop it. 

    "Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a Goldman Sachs spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."

    At least there is one company trying to buck the trend. I'm sure Goldman Sachs and Apple are still making some money on this deal but like medical insurance companies, there's no reason why credit cad companies should be making a vulgar amount of money doing practically nothing.
    I will tell you again, like the last time you brought this up, you only pay interest if you are buying things you can not afford. If you use a CC to delay payment by 30 days and use someone else money for 30 days and pay it off then you do not pay interest. This is not a hard concept to understand. 

    The reason CC interest rates are high due is to the fact it is unsecure loan of money that any one can walk away from and people do every day. If you are willing to pay high interest rate on a card to helping those who choose to walk way from their debts.

    Stop expecting the government to fix your problem, learn how to manage money.

    This is why interest rates are high


    Without government intervention you would be working 80 hour weeks enforced at gunpoint. There’s lots more examples of the usefulness of government intervention at your fingertips if you care.
    Solidysamoriatokyojimutyler82
  • Reply 15 of 35
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,637member
    gatorguy said:
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."

    USA Today, May 9, 2019

    Before people start screaming about this being political, just think about what AI is saying in this article about Citigroup. Credit Card companies are today's LEGAL loansharks and very few people in our government are doing anything to stop it. 

    "Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a Goldman Sachs spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."

    At least there is one company trying to buck the trend. I'm sure Goldman Sachs and Apple are still making some money on this deal but like medical insurance companies, there's no reason why credit cad companies should be making a vulgar amount of money doing practically nothing.
    I will tell you again, like the last time you brought this up, you only pay interest if you are buying things you can not afford. If you use a CC to delay payment by 30 days and use someone else money for 30 days and pay it off then you do not pay interest. This is not a hard concept to understand. 

    The reason CC interest rates are high due is to the fact it is unsecure loan of money that any one can walk away from and people do every day. If you are willing to pay high interest rate on a card to helping those who choose to walk way from their debts.

    Stop expecting the government to fix your problem, learn how to manage money.
    Maestro, are mortgages also for people buying things they can't afford? Perhaps unless you're wealthy by birth or whatever renting is the way we should all go until we can save up the 100K plus to buy a starter home. I would guess that's your suggestion. 
    Your mortgage is backed by the home itself it is a secure loan, in a case of mortgage you're buying a thing of value that goes up in value in most cases so it low risk to the bank. To your point, yes you should save to buy your house, but it is still your choice to pay interest to get what you want, but do not complain about it. I live in PA and the Amish pay cash for their properties, very few get loans so it can be done.

    I was talking about people using other people's money to buy things that does not have value and as soon as you buy it loses most of it value it is had any value. No one is complaining about interest rates on mortgages. As I said if you paying interest in a CC you buying things you can not afford in the first place. You do not need to come from money to get ahead, my parents taught me to buy want you can afford, and save for what you want. I taught both my kids this and they both have CC and neither carry balances on their CC both are in their early 20"s
    edited May 28 airnerdJWSCchemengin1watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 35
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,149member
    ....As bad a rep as Goldman Sachs has, Barclay is basically a criminal enterprise. 
    On the other hand, my new Barclay-backed UBER credit card pays me 4% back on all dining and bars. This adds up quickly. Of course, for this to be profitable for me, I have to carry no balance and incur no late fees. I make sure of this by having automatic full balance payments made from my checking account, which itself has overdraft protection. You can make even the most usurious credit cards work for you, but you have to play the game better than they do.
    Yes, I have my Amazon Card, which is just a Chase Card setup to auto pay it off every month all on it's own. So I get Cash Back to spend at Amazon and pay nothing in Interest. It's basically FREE MONEY!!! It's why people buy their grocery's and other things on the Credit card. They could pay that bill by a debit card right from your bank account. But that does nothing for you. Getting 1-4% cash back using a Credit Card is free money. So long as you pay it off every month there's no interest to pay. If it's money you would have spent anyway on those things, then paying it off shouldn't be a problem. You're just paying later then right that second. It also helps you build up a credit history and rating.

    It wasn't hard to go to Chase Online and set it up to pay off the balance every month automatically. Then you don't get into that hole. Back in my younger days, I would have a big balance on my credit cards and Interest always added. Only paid so much and it would barely drop down. Other than what I added to my Amazon Chase card this month, I don't owe anything on any of my credit cards. That debt hanging over your head month after month sucks. Only spend what you can afford and pay it off every month. No need to keep up with the Joneses.
    lostkiwichemengin1watto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 35
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,637member
    kruegdude said:
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."

    USA Today, May 9, 2019

    Before people start screaming about this being political, just think about what AI is saying in this article about Citigroup. Credit Card companies are today's LEGAL loansharks and very few people in our government are doing anything to stop it. 

    "Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a Goldman Sachs spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."

    At least there is one company trying to buck the trend. I'm sure Goldman Sachs and Apple are still making some money on this deal but like medical insurance companies, there's no reason why credit cad companies should be making a vulgar amount of money doing practically nothing.
    I will tell you again, like the last time you brought this up, you only pay interest if you are buying things you can not afford. If you use a CC to delay payment by 30 days and use someone else money for 30 days and pay it off then you do not pay interest. This is not a hard concept to understand. 

    The reason CC interest rates are high due is to the fact it is unsecure loan of money that any one can walk away from and people do every day. If you are willing to pay high interest rate on a card to helping those who choose to walk way from their debts.

    Stop expecting the government to fix your problem, learn how to manage money.

    This is why interest rates are high


    Without government intervention you would be working 80 hour weeks enforced at gunpoint. There’s lots more examples of the usefulness of government intervention at your fingertips if you care.
    Trust me I come from a Union family I understand the value of some government involvement. No on is holding a gun to anyone head telling them they have to use a CC, this is 100% personal choice and 100% in control by the person.
  • Reply 18 of 35
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,074member
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."

    USA Today, May 9, 2019

    Before people start screaming about this being political, just think about what AI is saying in this article about Citigroup. Credit Card companies are today's LEGAL loansharks and very few people in our government are doing anything to stop it. 

    "Goldman Sachs seeks to disrupt consumer finance by putting the customer first," claimed a Goldman Sachs spokesman. "We are excited for customers to use Apple Card, which is designed to help people take control of their financial lives."

    At least there is one company trying to buck the trend. I'm sure Goldman Sachs and Apple are still making some money on this deal but like medical insurance companies, there's no reason why credit cad companies should be making a vulgar amount of money doing practically nothing.
    I will tell you again, like the last time you brought this up, you only pay interest if you are buying things you can not afford. If you use a CC to delay payment by 30 days and use someone else money for 30 days and pay it off then you do not pay interest. This is not a hard concept to understand. 

    The reason CC interest rates are high due is to the fact it is unsecure loan of money that any one can walk away from and people do every day. If you are willing to pay high interest rate on a card to helping those who choose to walk way from their debts.

    Stop expecting the government to fix your problem, learn how to manage money.

    This is why interest rates are high


    I don't remember bringing it up before but it really doesn't matter. I haven't paid credit card interest in maybe 15 years but that doesn't mean I, or you, are the rule, we're the exception. I can prove that by showing how much money these companies make off of interest. Borrowing money has been going on forever, this isn't a new thing. There has always been some kind of interest being being paid for the process. As others have said, the only way 99% of people can buy anything is to use some kind of credit or deferred payment method. Actually, the other 1% use deferred payment methods all the time while some end up not even paying for things. People are paid once or twice a month yet bills come throughout the month. There are also times when that pay check doesn't cover emergencies, which is where credit cards come in. 

    The government is simply trying to stop as many cheaters as they can, something we pay taxes for. Of course, some people feel it's ok to cheat others as well as to blatantly steal from others (declaring bankruptcy is another one of those legal ways to not pay people what they are owed and is usually done by people with a lot of money). 

    You can continue to deflect from what's being presented with your comments or look at what's really going on and come up with constructive comments.
    montrosemacsdysamoria
  • Reply 19 of 35
    airnerdairnerd Posts: 664member
    lkrupp said:
    1st said:
    "Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez announced new legislation Thursday to cap credit card interest rates at 15%, a move that they said will help protect consumers from the "greed" of the credit card and banking industries."
    They should cap interest rates of those dollar mart or similar outfit ads for "20 dollar for 1000l payday loan instead. Barking on the wrong tree IMHO. 
    Christ those two are just insufferable. WAHHH FAIRNESSS WAHHH.

    The problem with their whole act is there are tons of pathetic people who actually think like this.

    How about: Personal Responsibility. GASP! Don't fucking use a credit card and not pay it off assholes!
    A recent article states that 25% of Americans are using credit cards for basic necessities. On other words going into debt just to stay alive. In my book that’s called living beyond your means.
    Sounds like "fun with words" to me.  I use my CC for "basic necessities" because I use my CC for literally everything but my mortgage payment.  Then I pay it off in full at the end of the month.  

    In no way is that living beyond my means or anything else.  It's me getting cashback or miles or whatever card I am on at the time in return for not needing cash on hand.  And it's more secure than a debit card if someone skims it.  So just looking at a stat about what percent of people are using cards for basic necessities doesn't tell the entire story.
    chemengin1meterestnzwatto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 35
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 490member
    lkrupp said:
    Credit card companies make tons of money on late fees, from the people who can least afford it. Then they raise the APR to ungodly heights because of it. CDs are paying less than 3% yet credit cards are charging 17-18-19% for revolving credit. That’s getting close to Payday and Car Title loan sharks.
    Yea well, Citigroup correctly identified the risk to their business model and ran, like the non-innovative, lazy, quasi-criminals they are.  The other quasi-criminals Goldman Sachs are not so lazy and correctly saw the opportunity in upending the credit card biz.   Risk and Opportunity.  They are one and the same.
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