Why in THE world do we need thinner? Answer: we don't! We need thicker. Why? Bigger batteries. More key travel. Better cooling. Enough said.
Your needs do not apply to mine. I have zero problem with thinner/lighter laptops. Today's "thin" laptops run longer and cooler than Apple's older, thicker models from a few years back. So it's kind of moot what people are complaining about. I love the light weight, and as I travel with mine often, lighter is better. That is a primary purpose for laptops remember?
Now... the keyboards though... I will meet halfway on that. At the minimum, I wish they weren't as loud, and hopefully the keyboard-gate drama has been resolved.
You may not need thinner, but thinner and lighter a huge deal for people who travel...
You really had to write 3 massive paragraphs to defend a thin computer for travel, ignoring the fact that Apple has more than one notebook product line, one specifically which has all been about trading features for thinness?
My point is that you travel folk don't need a MacBook Pro. You need a powerful AIR. Apple should run the AIR over with a road roller to satisfy you, since you'd just as soon type on glass to make your fingers feel good so long as it made your travels happier. But The Rest of Us don't travel on aircraft daily and because of that we want:
Thicker More Key Travel Bigger Battery Better Cooling
ENOUGH SAID.
You're missing the point if you think that more key travel, better cooling, and bigger batteries are coming from reducing the display panel thickness. If Apple wants to improve those areas, but can't without making the total size of the notebook thicker, then reducing the display casing thickness whilst maintaining (or even increasing) its rigidity would allow them to have more play with the bottom casing… where all of the things you mention reside.
Good point.
Though I still think they’ll eventually go for a touchscreen where the keyboard currently is, but first they need a breakthrough in haptics.
NO!!! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
If you’re not a touch typist, then fine, but stop treating people who have that skill as if we are irrelevant to computer marketing! Aiming the design at people who don’t have touch typing skills is exactly the way to kill professional interest in Macs!
The absolutely worst typing experience I’ve had is on an iPad. I might as well have never learned to type correctly for all the disservice these damned touch screens do for me. I hardly ever disconnect my iPad’s “Smart keyboard” (despite the fact that the key labels started wearing off three months after buying it).
I’m all in on having a thinner and lighter Apple laptop in the 15” class. Not sure what the composite backing would do here though. Composites tend to be thicker than aluminum for the equivalent bend strength I think. (Someone check me on this.) A little bit lighter, but I don’t see where it being thinner than aluminum comes in. So maybe all they are thinking about is just a light backing for the display.
I definitely think they can make an A13X laptop that is 12 mm thick, has 5 mm of key travel, and would be as performant as a 6-core Intel. GPU would be middling though.
They just need to have more product lines for the laptop. Split it into consumer, prosumer and workstation categories.
5mm of key travel is even higher than Cherry MX...
But the separation between Pros and Consumers aren't always that clear, if people simply going for the best, they'll choose the Pro no matter what. I don't think those people care that much when the Best in the line is millimeters thicker.
To me, if the iPhone could get thicker over time, then no reason a Pro won't do it. But those KOLs in our forum have developed some kind of conditioned response when they saw the word "thin", regardless of what and how.
Just noting that it is possible to have much longer key travel in a thinner laptop. Whether it is longer than some external keyboard brands, who knows. The key is just to look at an iPad Pro’s logic board. If they can keep it that long and skinny, then the keyboard doesn’t have to be on top of a laptop logic board (like it is on MacBook Pros) and therefore there is potential for 3, 4, 5, 6 mm of key travel on say a 12 mm thick laptop.
I’m fairly disappointed that the iPhones have gotten thicker over the last 4 years. There is potential that they’ll be yet thicker again next year if there is a 5G modem inside. I would prefer it if they trended back toward 7 mm, but they will only make the camera bumps ever higher.
As far as Pros versus Consumers, those are just branding words Apple uses to set expectations on prices and performance. Apple should have a laptop lineup for $1000 to $2000, $2000 to $3500, and >$3500 price tiers. A workstation lineup can be $3500 and up, with say, 300 W of components. The $2000 to $3500 lineup at 100 to 150 W, and the lower tier at up to 25 to 50 W. Currently, their lineup doesn’t have an offering for workstation class laptops, which would putatively be for the high performance buyers, which would have larger keyboards, more of everything.
You may not need thinner, but thinner and lighter a huge deal for people who travel...
You really had to write 3 massive paragraphs to defend a thin computer for travel, ignoring the fact that Apple has more than one notebook product line, one specifically which has all been about trading features for thinness?
My point is that you travel folk don't need a MacBook Pro. You need a powerful AIR. Apple should run the AIR over with a road roller to satisfy you, since you'd just as soon type on glass to make your fingers feel good so long as it made your travels happier. But The Rest of Us don't travel on aircraft daily and because of that we want:
Thicker More Key Travel Bigger Battery Better Cooling
ENOUGH SAID.
You're missing the point if you think that more key travel, better cooling, and bigger batteries are coming from reducing the display panel thickness. If Apple wants to improve those areas, but can't without making the total size of the notebook thicker, then reducing the display casing thickness whilst maintaining (or even increasing) its rigidity would allow them to have more play with the bottom casing… where all of the things you mention reside.
Good point.
Though I still think they’ll eventually go for a touchscreen where the keyboard currently is, but first they need a breakthrough in haptics.
NO!!! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
If you’re not a touch typist, then fine, but stop treating people who have that skill as if we are irrelevant to computer marketing! Aiming the design at people who don’t have touch typing skills is exactly the way to kill professional interest in Macs!
The absolutely worst typing experience I’ve had is on an iPad. I might as well have never learned to type correctly for all the disservice these damned touch screens do for me. I hardly ever disconnect my iPad’s “Smart keyboard” (despite the fact that the key labels started wearing off three months after buying it).
I don’t disagree with you that it’s not a good experience on the iPad, but Ray clearly stated that a breakthrough in haptics would be needed to make it work.
if you had told me a decade ago that Apple would remove the pivot from the trackpad so that it was completely stationary I’d have not been happy with the notion, but Apple did exactly that but they did with wonderful haptics that I have never missed the articulating trackpad.
It has never had a crumb under it. It has never required me adjusting the screw inside the chassis. It has never broke on me. It has never not worked right because I tapped too close to the hinge mechanism at the top.
I’m glad Apple went that route, which includes eventually making the Home Button on the iPhone a non depressible button
You may not need thinner, but thinner and lighter a huge deal for people who travel...
You really had to write 3 massive paragraphs to defend a thin computer for travel, ignoring the fact that Apple has more than one notebook product line, one specifically which has all been about trading features for thinness?
My point is that you travel folk don't need a MacBook Pro. You need a powerful AIR. Apple should run the AIR over with a road roller to satisfy you, since you'd just as soon type on glass to make your fingers feel good so long as it made your travels happier. But The Rest of Us don't travel on aircraft daily and because of that we want:
Thicker More Key Travel Bigger Battery Better Cooling
ENOUGH SAID.
You're missing the point if you think that more key travel, better cooling, and bigger batteries are coming from reducing the display panel thickness. If Apple wants to improve those areas, but can't without making the total size of the notebook thicker, then reducing the display casing thickness whilst maintaining (or even increasing) its rigidity would allow them to have more play with the bottom casing… where all of the things you mention reside.
Good point.
Though I still think they’ll eventually go for a touchscreen where the keyboard currently is, but first they need a breakthrough in haptics.
NO!!! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
If you’re not a touch typist, then fine, but stop treating people who have that skill as if we are irrelevant to computer marketing! Aiming the design at people who don’t have touch typing skills is exactly the way to kill professional interest in Macs!
The absolutely worst typing experience I’ve had is on an iPad. I might as well have never learned to type correctly for all the disservice these damned touch screens do for me. I hardly ever disconnect my iPad’s “Smart keyboard” (despite the fact that the key labels started wearing off three months after buying it).
I don’t disagree with you that it’s not a good experience on the iPad, but Ray clearly stated that a breakthrough in haptics would be needed to make it work.
if you had told me a decade ago that Apple would remove the pivot from the trackpad so that it was completely stationary I’d have not been happy with the notion, but Apple did exactly that but they did with wonderful haptics that I have never missed the articulating trackpad.
It has never had a crumb under it. It has never required me adjusting the screw inside the chassis. It has never broke on me. It has never not worked right because I tapped too close to the hinge mechanism at the top.
I’m glad Apple went that route, which includes eventually making the Home Button on the iPhone a non depressible button
I’m all in on having a thinner and lighter Apple laptop in the 15” class. Not sure what the composite backing would do here though. Composites tend to be thicker than aluminum for the equivalent bend strength I think. (Someone check me on this.) A little bit lighter, but I don’t see where it being thinner than aluminum comes in. So maybe all they are thinking about is just a light backing for the display.
I definitely think they can make an A13X laptop that is 12 mm thick, has 5 mm of key travel, and would be as performant as a 6-core Intel. GPU would be middling though.
They just need to have more product lines for the laptop. Split it into consumer, prosumer and workstation categories.
5mm of key travel is even higher than Cherry MX...
But the separation between Pros and Consumers aren't always that clear, if people simply going for the best, they'll choose the Pro no matter what. I don't think those people care that much when the Best in the line is millimeters thicker.
To me, if the iPhone could get thicker over time, then no reason a Pro won't do it. But those KOLs in our forum have developed some kind of conditioned response when they saw the word "thin", regardless of what and how.
Just noting that it is possible to have much longer key travel in a thinner laptop. Whether it is longer than some external keyboard brands, who knows. The key is just to look at an iPad Pro’s logic board. If they can keep it that long and skinny, then the keyboard doesn’t have to be on top of a laptop logic board (like it is on MacBook Pros) and therefore there is potential for 3, 4, 5, 6 mm of key travel on say a 12 mm thick laptop.
I’m fairly disappointed that the iPhones have gotten thicker over the last 4 years. There is potential that they’ll be yet thicker again next year if there is a 5G modem inside. I would prefer it if they trended back toward 7 mm, but they will only make the camera bumps ever higher.
As far as Pros versus Consumers, those are just branding words Apple uses to set expectations on prices and performance. Apple should have a laptop lineup for $1000 to $2000, $2000 to $3500, and >$3500 price tiers. A workstation lineup can be $3500 and up, with say, 300 W of components. The $2000 to $3500 lineup at 100 to 150 W, and the lower tier at up to 25 to 50 W. Currently, their lineup doesn’t have an offering for workstation class laptops, which would putatively be for the high performance buyers, which would have larger keyboards, more of everything.
I'll focus on the last part. The biggest power-consuming component is the GPU, which can go as high as >120W. Everything else combined could barely get that high (I know, i9 may be an exception, but soon it will fade away). If the Pro is moving towards eGPU, there's no necessarily needs for more than a hundred watts.
I'll focus on the last part. The biggest power-consuming component is the GPU, which can go as high as >120W. Everything else combined could barely get that high (I know, i9 may be an exception, but soon it will fade away). If the Pro is moving towards eGPU, there's no necessarily needs for more than a hundred watts.
When I said 200 to 300 W, I was thinking of desktop chips in a laptop form factor. So, 90 W Xeon with say 256 GB to 512 GB RAM support, 150 to 200 W GPU, and a 17” to 18” display. 6 to 8 lbs.
The linked Dell is basically what Apple offers in their MBP15” lineup.
I'll focus on the last part. The biggest power-consuming component is the GPU, which can go as high as >120W. Everything else combined could barely get that high (I know, i9 may be an exception, but soon it will fade away). If the Pro is moving towards eGPU, there's no necessarily needs for more than a hundred watts.
When I said 200 to 300 W, I was thinking of desktop chips in a laptop form factor. So, 90 W Xeon with say 256 GB to 512 GB RAM support, 150 to 200 W GPU, and a 17” to 18” display. 6 to 8 lbs.
The linked Dell is basically what Apple offers in their MBP15” lineup.
Umm, that kind of laptop is such rarity... Those were truly portable desktops, which I don't think anyone other than die-hards wants. A "mobile workstation" can be smaller and portable, crossing over with multimedia laptops, which I think is the most well-rounded choice.
I'll focus on the last part. The biggest power-consuming component is the GPU, which can go as high as >120W. Everything else combined could barely get that high (I know, i9 may be an exception, but soon it will fade away). If the Pro is moving towards eGPU, there's no necessarily needs for more than a hundred watts.
When I said 200 to 300 W, I was thinking of desktop chips in a laptop form factor. So, 90 W Xeon with say 256 GB to 512 GB RAM support, 150 to 200 W GPU, and a 17” to 18” display. 6 to 8 lbs.
The linked Dell is basically what Apple offers in their MBP15” lineup.
Umm, that kind of laptop is such rarity... Those were truly portable desktops, which I don't think anyone other than die-hards wants. A "mobile workstation" can be smaller and portable, crossing over with multimedia laptops, which I think is the most well-rounded choice.
It does not have to be either-or. It can be both. Apple thinks it has customers with Xeon powered iMac Pros and Mac Pros. If so, they’ll have customers for “desktop portables”. They have a lot of customers that do video editing on the go, and with YouTube, speed is king. So, there is a market for FCPX, or whatever editor, to get a video out as soon as possible while on location. They can price at $3500 and above so customers need not be confused on what to get.
Maybe 20 years ago, they had to triangulate down to a limited number of models due to selling 5m units per year, and they were just recovering from inventory messes from the 90s. Today, they are selling close to 20m PCs (mostly laptops) per year and JIT manufacturing is normal. It’s more than past time to stretch the lineup and to try to catch more and more of the niches. They don’t have to go to every niche, and can still be quite judicious on what to offer.
I'll focus on the last part. The biggest power-consuming component is the GPU, which can go as high as >120W. Everything else combined could barely get that high (I know, i9 may be an exception, but soon it will fade away). If the Pro is moving towards eGPU, there's no necessarily needs for more than a hundred watts.
When I said 200 to 300 W, I was thinking of desktop chips in a laptop form factor. So, 90 W Xeon with say 256 GB to 512 GB RAM support, 150 to 200 W GPU, and a 17” to 18” display. 6 to 8 lbs.
The linked Dell is basically what Apple offers in their MBP15” lineup.
Umm, that kind of laptop is such rarity... Those were truly portable desktops, which I don't think anyone other than die-hards wants. A "mobile workstation" can be smaller and portable, crossing over with multimedia laptops, which I think is the most well-rounded choice.
It does not have to be either-or. It can be both. Apple thinks it has customers with Xeon powered iMac Pros and Mac Pros. If so, they’ll have customers for “desktop portables”. They have a lot of customers that do video editing on the go, and with YouTube, speed is king. So, there is a market for FCPX, or whatever editor, to get a video out as soon as possible while on location. They can price at $3500 and above so customers need not be confused on what to get.
Maybe 20 years ago, they had to triangulate down to a limited number of models due to selling 5m units per year, and they were just recovering from inventory messes from the 90s. Today, they are selling close to 20m PCs (mostly laptops) per year and JIT manufacturing is normal. It’s more than past time to stretch the lineup and to try to catch more and more of the niches. They don’t have to go to every niche, and can still be quite judicious on what to offer.
You've mentioned "On the go", well carrying a 6700K (or 9900K) around won't do, it canceled out the fact that "large chassis allows more battery", which all of the gaming laptops suffered.
People need power and will never stop asking for it, but if that's your only goal, you'll always find computers that were faster. I think most of us just fall into this phenomenon where "Apple doesn't care about the performance at all", so "we must ask for the best performance on the planet". No, like everything else, there's a line where you find the performance satisfied, that anything beyond will only give you diminishing return -- unless it's faster by a ton, twice at least.
There were gaming laptops and huge workstations well back in 2006, later offering quad-cores well before an i7, except Pro(sumer)s weren't complaining then as they did now.
dewme said: Are airline seats getting bigger and more spacious? Are travel bags and backpacks getting lighter? blahblahblahblahblah
Specious bullshit.
The MacBook lineup overall is so thin to the point of getting even thinner has no practical advantage and is just another Apple Event bragging right. 'It slices and dices and makes julienne fries!' 2mm thinner and an ounce or two lighter? You'll never know the difference in your travel bag or backpack. You'd know that if you had to schlep a Wallstreet or Pismo all over Hell and gone.
Sure, reinforce the screen against breaking. I don't know how common that is, but certainly carbon fiber could be a great feature. Take whatever space is gained and 'fill' it with battery. The 11 line of phones are thicker, now with more power! (Cue Tim Allen.) Do the same for the laptop line up.
It won't get us a decent keyboard, but more Big G, little o power is always appreciated, especially by those of us who travel a lot.
dewme said: Are airline seats getting bigger and more spacious? Are travel bags and backpacks getting lighter? blahblahblahblahblah
Specious bullshit.
The MacBook lineup overall is so thin to the point of getting even thinner has no practical advantage and is just another Apple Event bragging right. 'It slices and dices and makes julienne fries!' 2mm thinner and an ounce or two lighter? You'll never know the difference in your travel bag or backpack. You'd know that if you had to schlep a Wallstreet or Pismo all over Hell and gone.
Sure, reinforce the screen against breaking. I don't know how common that is, but certainly carbon fiber could be a great feature. Take whatever space is gained and 'fill' it with battery. The 11 line of phones are thicker, now with more power! (Cue Tim Allen.) Do the same for the laptop line up.
It won't get us a decent keyboard, but more Big G, little o power is always appreciated, especially by those of us who travel a lot.
Or is the patent of making the display more rigid prevents them from making better notebooks?
Comments
If you’re not a touch typist, then fine, but stop treating people who have that skill as if we are irrelevant to computer marketing! Aiming the design at people who don’t have touch typing skills is exactly the way to kill professional interest in Macs!
The absolutely worst typing experience I’ve had is on an iPad. I might as well have never learned to type correctly for all the disservice these damned touch screens do for me. I hardly ever disconnect my iPad’s “Smart keyboard” (despite the fact that the key labels started wearing off three months after buying it).
This is PATHOLOGICAL!!!
Just noting that it is possible to have much longer key travel in a thinner laptop. Whether it is longer than some external keyboard brands, who knows. The key is just to look at an iPad Pro’s logic board. If they can keep it that long and skinny, then the keyboard doesn’t have to be on top of a laptop logic board (like it is on MacBook Pros) and therefore there is potential for 3, 4, 5, 6 mm of key travel on say a 12 mm thick laptop.
I’m fairly disappointed that the iPhones have gotten thicker over the last 4 years. There is potential that they’ll be yet thicker again next year if there is a 5G modem inside. I would prefer it if they trended back toward 7 mm, but they will only make the camera bumps ever higher.
As far as Pros versus Consumers, those are just branding words Apple uses to set expectations on prices and performance. Apple should have a laptop lineup for $1000 to $2000, $2000 to $3500, and >$3500 price tiers. A workstation lineup can be $3500 and up, with say, 300 W of components. The $2000 to $3500 lineup at 100 to 150 W, and the lower tier at up to 25 to 50 W. Currently, their lineup doesn’t have an offering for workstation class laptops, which would putatively be for the high performance buyers, which would have larger keyboards, more of everything.
if you had told me a decade ago that Apple would remove the pivot from the trackpad so that it was completely stationary I’d have not been happy with the notion, but Apple did exactly that but they did with wonderful haptics that I have never missed the articulating trackpad.
It has never had a crumb under it. It has never required me adjusting the screw inside the chassis. It has never broke on me. It has never not worked right because I tapped too close to the hinge mechanism at the top.
I’m glad Apple went that route, which includes eventually making the Home Button on the iPhone a non depressible button
Yes.
If the Pro is moving towards eGPU, there's no necessarily needs for more than a hundred watts.
Speaking of "Mobile Workstation", this is a Mobile Workstation. This is also a Mobile Workstation. The term is also another marketing gimmick.
The linked Dell is basically what Apple offers in their MBP15” lineup.
Maybe 20 years ago, they had to triangulate down to a limited number of models due to selling 5m units per year, and they were just recovering from inventory messes from the 90s. Today, they are selling close to 20m PCs (mostly laptops) per year and JIT manufacturing is normal. It’s more than past time to stretch the lineup and to try to catch more and more of the niches. They don’t have to go to every niche, and can still be quite judicious on what to offer.
People need power and will never stop asking for it, but if that's your only goal, you'll always find computers that were faster. I think most of us just fall into this phenomenon where "Apple doesn't care about the performance at all", so "we must ask for the best performance on the planet". No, like everything else, there's a line where you find the performance satisfied, that anything beyond will only give you diminishing return -- unless it's faster by a ton, twice at least.
There were gaming laptops and huge workstations well back in 2006, later offering quad-cores well before an i7, except Pro(sumer)s weren't complaining then as they did now.
The MacBook lineup overall is so thin to the point of getting even thinner has no practical advantage and is just another Apple Event bragging right. 'It slices and dices and makes julienne fries!' 2mm thinner and an ounce or two lighter? You'll never know the difference in your travel bag or backpack. You'd know that if you had to schlep a Wallstreet or Pismo all over Hell and gone.
Sure, reinforce the screen against breaking. I don't know how common that is, but certainly carbon fiber could be a great feature. Take whatever space is gained and 'fill' it with battery. The 11 line of phones are thicker, now with more power! (Cue Tim Allen.) Do the same for the laptop line up.
It won't get us a decent keyboard, but more Big G, little o power is always appreciated, especially by those of us who travel a lot.