Mac Pro versus iMac Pro: how to choose the best pro Mac

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  • Reply 41 of 53
    For my situation I leave my iMac monitor on 24/7. Under this usage, the screen's lifetime is about 3 years. How long will the new Pro Display XDR last under this level of usage?
  • Reply 42 of 53
    DRBDRB Posts: 34member
    eightzero said:
    jhalmos said:
    You know what, just take the processor out of the iMac Pro, put it in a nice box, and sell that. I don't need the monitor.

    Oh ya, and because I'm talking to Apple, remember to drop the price accordingly since NO MONITOR.
    That would be an very interesting (dare we say it?) Mac Mini Pro. 
    I've been sending Apple suggestions for a MacMiniPro for about 5 years or so. My idea would be a high end i9 with a few slots, etc. etc. in a thick slab type case where it's priced between a MacMini and a MacPro. Something that addresses the Prosumer customer.
  • Reply 43 of 53
    YP101YP101 Posts: 142member
    Unless Apple redesign iMac Pro to user replace RAM and CPU, there is not much reason to buy iMac Pro now.
    iMac Pro or new Mac Pro, you need to spend at least $5,000. At this point would you rather settle for  5K panel or 12 RAM slot and 8 PCI slot expansion?
    iMac Pro has only 4 RAM slot that require monitor remove.

    New pro XDR monitor case very good choice to update iMac Pro.. But I don't think Apple will do..
    At this point Apple might kill iMac Pro.
    Just more spec bump to 27' iMac. Same 5K panel at least user replaceable RAM slot.

    For Mac mini pro, if Apple decide to create one then it will have just 2 PCI slot and maybe 4 RAM slot.
    It will shape like G4 cube. I don't think Apple will create the box that fit full size GPU.
    2 PCI solt give you 1 slot for half size GPU and other slot for NVME PCI converter to more SSD space.
    If it has PCI SSD slot in mainboard then we are lucky.(I think more like soldered SSD.)

  • Reply 44 of 53
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,265member
    tht said:
    DuhSesame said:
    tht said:
    eightzero said:
    jhalmos said:
    You know what, just take the processor out of the iMac Pro, put it in a nice box, and sell that. I don't need the monitor.

    Oh ya, and because I'm talking to Apple, remember to drop the price accordingly since NO MONITOR.
    That would be an very interesting (dare we say it?) Mac Mini Pro. 
    I call it the Mac Half Pro.


    Lop off 5 inches from the Mac Pro resulting in only enough room for 6.5” PCIe cards (so half length 250W MPX modules, half length PCIe cards, 2 x16 PCIe slots at most, but the 4 double wide slots stay), remove 8 DIMM slots (512 GB max memory), remove 2 PCIe slots, downsize the PSU to 700 W, use Xeon W 2200 series (loses 24 lanes of PCI), so on and so forth. 

    2 HDD sled as a half MPX model. Single Vega II, Navi GPU cards would be half MPX modules that are quad wide. PCIe SSD, Afterburner, I/O cards, etc. After market GPU cards if they can be found that short. 

    Basically half a Mac Pro. Would have sounded better if the Mac Pro was a 2 socket system, so it would be half the CPU sockets, but Xeon W 2200 versus 3200 series is almost half. Apple could start the Half Pro with a 6-core and the Full Pro with a 12-core and there you go. Half.

    A consumer-grade 4 slots wide Graphics Card?  Bigger heatsink than the higher-level Pro?

    The current 3647-style Xeon W isn't going to be anywhere cheaper because of Intel.  It would make more sense to adopt LGA2066 instead.

    Even so, from Apple's perspective, another tower won't make too much profit.  A lot of the technology that comes with the Mac Pro isn't going to be cheap, even slice it in half, the fundamental remains the same.
    Oh, a Mac Half Pro would have half the starting price at $3000. Not cheap, and likely with a 6-core. I just outlined a Xeon W-2200 series platform system: Xeon W 2200 versus 3200 series is almost half.

    So, yes, we are thinking of the same thing here. A Xeon W-2200 series system (uses LGA2066 socket), which is the successor Xeon W to the one in the current iMac Pro (uses Xeon W-2100 series), but with 2019 Mac Pro industrial design. I did count the PCIe lane difference wrong.

    It’s not consumer grade GPUs. It’s the same ones in the Mac Pro: Pro Vega II (Vega 20 arch), Radeon Pro W5700X (Navi), and probably the Radeon Pro 580X too with the corresponding 8, 16, 32 GB memory. For half, you take the Pro Vega II Duo MPX module, and cut it in half. It would still be quad wide for the same reasons: 250W, the needed heat sink wetted surface area and flow rate for the axial fans. Quad wide is also convenient as it would fit 2 3.5” HDD, a 250 W GPU, PCIe SSDs, IO cards, and specialty cards. Or whatever combination with 2 half MPX modules, 1 double wide and 1 normal width PCIe slot.
    Xeon W in LGA-2066 is discontinued, the platform won't last, Ryzen still has cheaper alternatives and most of the so-called "Pros" isn't going to use more than one slot.

    All of the graphics cards present in Mac Pro is much more expensive than your typical gaming cards.
    edited December 2019
  • Reply 45 of 53
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,265member
    tht said:

    DuhSesame said:
    Consider that Intel will probably not going to make Xeons on the 2066 Platform, I think it would be better to opt the i9 instead:
    https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/198017/intel-core-i9-10980xe-extreme-edition-processor-24-75m-cache-3-00-ghz.html

    It's pretty much a faster processor but without the workstation stuff.  Apple could also adopt SO-DIMMs for RAM which just doubles from the current iMac.

    Then, what else?  Making the graphics card removable?  Re-adopt the MXM or even a custom-made expansion module?

    I wonder if it's probable to use 16 lanes for Thunderbolt, that would give you 32 lanes already, then another 8 for the SSD.
    The Cascade Lake Core X models (Core i9-10900 series CPUs) are just Xeon W-2200 series chips, except Intel fused off 2 bits of memory support resulting in 256 GB max memory support versus 1 TB for the Xeon W-2200 series.

    48 lanes of PCIe 3 directly off the CPU, 24 off the I/O platform controller hub. The PCIe lanes off the PCH are really just x4 and really can’t be used for GPUs or other high bandwidth hardware because the bus from the PCH to the CPU is basically equivalent to 4 lanes of PCIe 3. So, SSD cards, network cards, I/O cards etc. PCIe slots can be x16, x16, x8, x8, x4, x4, with the latter two from the PCH, in such a system.

    For the consumer hardware, the 10nm Ice Lake desktop CPUs are going to be pretty good, if Intel can actually ship them sooner rather than later.
    And they aren't Xeon Ws, they're just HEDT processors, no ECC or extra security features.

    48 lanes are all from the processor, then four extra for the PCH (which transfer to 24).  There is plenty of room.


  • Reply 46 of 53
    thttht Posts: 4,716member
    DuhSesame said:
    And they aren't Xeon Ws, they're just HEDT processors, no ECC or extra security features.

    48 lanes are all from the processor, then four extra for the PCH (which transfer to 24).  There is plenty of room.


    Wow, ark is driving me blind, as I clearly remember reading the i9-10900 series processors supporting ECC memory and being surprised. 

    We can probably agree that they are just the same Cascade Lake processors, whether they are branded Core i9-10980XE or Xeon W-2295, with bits fused off or left along to support the various features. 

    Strange that the Core X filtering on ark is failing today too. 
    DuhSesame
  • Reply 47 of 53
    tht said:
    eightzero said:
    jhalmos said:
    You know what, just take the processor out of the iMac Pro, put it in a nice box, and sell that. I don't need the monitor.

    Oh ya, and because I'm talking to Apple, remember to drop the price accordingly since NO MONITOR.
    That would be an very interesting (dare we say it?) Mac Mini Pro. 
    Basically half a Mac Pro. Would have sounded better if the Mac Pro was a 2 socket system, so it would be half the CPU sockets, but Xeon W 2200 versus 3200 series is almost half. Apple could start the Half Pro with a 6-core and the Full Pro with a 12-core and there you go. Half.
    Why not just offer a BTO Mac Mini with a discrete GPU? If Apple had pushed the power supply out to a brick, there would be enough space for a cooling system for a proper GPU AND a better scheme for memory upgrades.

    Except for the crappy Intel graphics, the Mini i7 is a very nice computer. Not even Iris or Iris Pro.
  • Reply 48 of 53
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    I wonder how things would shake out if this June Apple intro'd a lower-end Mac Pro powered by the A14 chip...
  • Reply 49 of 53
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,265member
    tht said:
    DuhSesame said:
    And they aren't Xeon Ws, they're just HEDT processors, no ECC or extra security features.

    48 lanes are all from the processor, then four extra for the PCH (which transfer to 24).  There is plenty of room.


    Wow, ark is driving me blind, as I clearly remember reading the i9-10900 series processors supporting ECC memory and being surprised. 

    We can probably agree that they are just the same Cascade Lake processors, whether they are branded Core i9-10980XE or Xeon W-2295, with bits fused off or left along to support the various features. 

    Strange that the Core X filtering on ark is failing today too. 
    Yeah, Xeons are the only series that supports ECC, unlike Threadrippers.

    Your tower concept can work as a Mac "HEDT" Platform, but so does the iMac Pro.  I'm sure you can redesign it to have better modularity -- not going to be as great as the tower, but enough for "Pros" to modify and extend the life of it.

    The new design will be thicker when necessary - like iPhones & MacBooks, it will get excused for more computing power, then making it 32-inch too.  After that, build two RAM bay to reach 256GiB, whether they will be DIMMs or SO-DIMMs.  For expansions, you'll need custom slot connectors to fit the needs, something like MXM slots, with a thinner power connector on the side.

    As for how you'll utilize all 48 lanes, my thought is to give the first 16 lanes to Thunderbolt, which will be eight Type-Cs.  Then leave two of those empty slots, one of them will be used by a graphics card, the other could be anything, depends on the cooling and the power supply, or your configuration -- 4 SSDs in RAID? could be possible.  The PCH will be used for two 10Gb Ethernet, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. and the system drive - if ever need one.
    edited December 2019
  • Reply 50 of 53
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,919member
    DuhSesame said:
    Re-adopt the MXM or even a custom-made expansion module?
    Yes. A custom-made expansion module for wireless, storage, neural, graphics &, eventually, ARM CPU.
  • Reply 51 of 53
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,265member
    mcdave said:
    DuhSesame said:
    Re-adopt the MXM or even a custom-made expansion module?
    Yes. A custom-made expansion module for wireless, storage, neural, graphics &, eventually, ARM CPU.
    Don't think there will be expansion modules for Wi-Fi.
  • Reply 52 of 53
    thttht Posts: 4,716member
    davgreg said:
    tht said:
    eightzero said:
    jhalmos said:
    You know what, just take the processor out of the iMac Pro, put it in a nice box, and sell that. I don't need the monitor.

    Oh ya, and because I'm talking to Apple, remember to drop the price accordingly since NO MONITOR.
    That would be an very interesting (dare we say it?) Mac Mini Pro. 
    Basically half a Mac Pro. Would have sounded better if the Mac Pro was a 2 socket system, so it would be half the CPU sockets, but Xeon W 2200 versus 3200 series is almost half. Apple could start the Half Pro with a 6-core and the Full Pro with a 12-core and there you go. Half.
    Why not just offer a BTO Mac Mini with a discrete GPU? If Apple had pushed the power supply out to a brick, there would be enough space for a cooling system for a proper GPU AND a better scheme for memory upgrades.

    Except for the crappy Intel graphics, the Mini i7 is a very nice computer. Not even Iris or Iris Pro.
    Like I said, with the current lineup, I would have to settle for a 6-core Mac mini, OWC eHDD that looks like a Mac mini, the Satechi port/dock that matches the Mac mini, and an eGPU. That’s about $2500 to $3000, which is not that far away from a Mac Half Pro, and the Mac Half Pro would have a lot less cable clutter. 
  • Reply 53 of 53
    ”However, that same sleek case is also a problem because it affects upgradeability. You can upgrade the iMac Pro's RAM at any point, but in reality, it's just not that practical because you have to unglue the screen to do it.“
    I’ve enjoyed my iMac Pro this past year, but I was disappointed to learn the truth about your statement. I maxed the graphics card as that’s too important not to. 2TB was sufficient given Thunderbolt 3 expansion. I visited my local Apple store to learn how much increasing memory would run me. I “settled” for 32Gb (the most I’ve ever had in a machine) thinking I could upgrade. The Apple store said they couldn’t do it. The guy showed me his spec sheets (he wasn’t supposed to but they’ve gotten to know me), he acknowledged the memory wasn’t soldered but they hadn’t been authorized to upgrade. I called Apple support- they said the same. 
    If you are aware of Apple authorizing this I’d like to hear the details. Until then I’ll look forward to my warranty expiring (!) to delve into aftermarket options. 
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