How U.S. states are using digital contact tracing to stop COVID-19

Posted:
in General Discussion edited February 10
Exposure notification, a type of digital contact tracing, is an avenue to combat COVID-19 in the U.S., but each state and territory has to carry out their own tracing. Here's who's doing what, updated on Feb. 10 to note Hawaii integration with Apple-Google API.

Digital contact tracing could help track and curb the spread of COVID-19 in the U.S. But each state will have their own solution.
Digital contact tracing could help track and curb the spread of COVID-19 in the U.S. But each state will have their own solution.


As governments across the globe relax social distancing and stay-at-home orders, many of them are considering digital contract tracing -- and specifically, exposure notification -- as a way to help continue controlling the spread of COVID-19.

In the U.S., there will be about 50 different contact tracing apps and platforms. One for each state, and possibly another two for Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico. To help you keep track of what individual states and governments are doing, here's a current rundown of contact tracing platforms in the U.S., as well as additional information about Apple's and Google's exposure notification system and other contact tracing solutions.

What is digital contact tracing?

Contact tracing, as a public health strategy, isn't new. Health and medical experts have used manual contact tracing to track and curb the spread of disease for centuries.

Generally, it involves human public health officials or volunteers who interview people who have been diagnosed with a disease. During these interviews, contact tracers track who that person may have come into contact with so that public health officials can test them, trace all of their contacts, and so on. It is, as you might expect, arduous.

Digital contact tracing seeks to largely automate this process. By using smartphone technology like Bluetooth or location data, public health organizations can track and alert all of the smartphone users that an infected person has come into contact with.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, this is dubbed exposure notification or proximity tracing. Other types of digital contact tracing include case management, which seeks streamline the capture and management of exposure data.

But it's exposure notification that many health departments and tech companies have focused on. Independent entities have devised their own digital exposure notification technology, from MIT to the government of Singapore. But none of them have generated as much buzz as the system announced by Apple and Google in April.

Apple and Google's effort




The Apple and Google exposure notification system is actually not an app. Instead, it's a developer framework that public health entities can use to create their own individual contact tracing apps.

The underlying framework is a cross-platform system that works on both Android and iOS. It works by collecting Bluetooth signals from devices that you come into close proximity with. If you, or the owners of one of those devices, is diagnosed with COVID-19, those proximity contacts are alerted with a notification.

Unlike other attempts at digital contact tracing, the system does away with some of the inherent restrictions on background Bluetooth usage in iOS. In stark contrast to some contact tracing efforts, the Apple-Google API also places a strong emphasis on privacy, encryption and decentralization.

Because of that, Apple and Google are seemingly distancing themselves from the contact tracing moniker. In more recent announcements, the two tech giants have taken to calling the system "Exposure Notification."

On July 31, Google announced new updates that would improve the accuracy and privacy of the system. And on Sept. 1, Apple released iOS 13.7, which includes a measure that will allow exposure notification to work without a public health app.

Beyond the actual framework, there have also been related developments. In July, The Linux Foundation announced a new initiative to use open-source tech, like the API, to combat coronavirus. Earlier that month, the Association of Public Health Laboratories announced plans to build a national server to house data.

Which states are using the Apple-Google contact tracing API?

The first version of the Care19 app, used in North Dakota and South Dakota, was released too early to use Exposure Notification. An upcoming update to the app will adopt the Apple-Google system, however.
The first version of the Care19 app, used in North Dakota and South Dakota, was released too early to use Exposure Notification. An upcoming update to the app will adopt the Apple-Google system, however.


As of Aug. 26, the date of first publication of this article, there were just six U.S. states that released a coronavirus contact tracing app based on the Apple-Google API. Many more have arrived since.

Alabama

Alabama was one of the first states to signal that it would release a contact tracing app based on the Apple-Google API.

Over the summer of 2020, Alabama developed its platform, called GuideSafe, and piloted it at colleges across the state, according to the Montgomery Adviser. In August, the state government officially began rolling out GuideSafe to the general public.

The app is available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

Arizona

Arizona in August became one of the first U.S. states to roll out an Exposure Notification solution, primarily aimed at college campuses, ABC reported.

Developed in partnership with the Arizona Department of Health Services, the Covid Watch Arizona app is available to users throughout the state. Customized versions are being fielded for students of the University of Arizona and Northern Arizona University.

The app is available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

California

The CA Notify app, piloted at the University of California, San Diego and the University of California, San Francisco, launched on Dec. 10.

Connecticut

Connecticut officially launched a COVID-19 exposure notification app called COVID Alert CT in November.

The app is based on Apple and Google frameworks, and is part of a regional, interoperable COVID alert system that will also include New York, New Jersey, Delaware, and Connecticut.

Delaware

Although the state developed the app relatively quietly, Delaware on Sept. 15 launched its first contact tracing app based on the Apple-Google API.

The app, COVID Alert DE Mobile, is also interoperable with the contact tracing app released a few weeks later in Pennsylvania.

It's available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

Hawaii

Hawaii's official exposure notification app, AlohaSafe Alert, was released in app form in January 2021 and has since integrated Apple and Google's Exposure Notification API. The app was developed in partnership with the Hawaii State Department of Health.

Maryland

Maryland adopted the MD COVID Alert program on Nov. 10

Minnesota

COVIDaware MN was released on Nov 24.

Nevada

On Aug. 24, the state of Nevada launched its own take on COVID-19 Exposure Notification with the COVID Trace app.

Along with the state urging Nevadans to download the app, many casinos in Las Vegas are encouraging employees to use COVID Trace, according to the Review Journal.

The app is available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

North Dakota

North Dakota became one of the first U.S. states to issue a contact tracing app earlier in 2020, and one of the first to signal that it would use the Apple-Google framework. Although North Dakota's app was originally based on a system different than the Apple-Google API, it has since been updated.

In August, North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum announced the new version of the Care19 Alert app would be based on the technology developed by Apple and Google.

The app is available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

Pennsylvania

Pennsylvania in August joined other states in announcing that it would soon debut a coronavirus exposure notification app. On Tuesday, Sept. 22, the state's health department officially launched COVID Alert PA.

Developed by Ireland-based Nearform, the system relies on the Apple-Google Exposure Notification API to alert users whether they've been in close proximity with someone who has tested positive for COVID-19. It's also interoperable with neighboring Delaware's app.

It's available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

New York and New Jersey

The states of New York and New Jersey on Oct. 1 announced the launch of statewide COVID-19 exposure notifications apps. Respectively, they're dubbed COVID Alert NY and COVID Alert NJ.

In the announcement, the states also said that they would take part in a regional COVID alert network alongside both Pennsylvania and Delaware. Conneticut will also take part in the network when it launches its own exposure notification app "in the coming weeks."

COVID Alert NY is available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

COVID Alert NJ is available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

Virginia

At the start of August, the state of Virginia became the first in the U.S. to officially launch an Exposure Notification app based on the Apple-Google API.

Developed in partnership with the Virginia Department of Health, the COVIDWISE app officially launched to Virginians on Aug. 5.

The app is available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

Wyoming

Earlier in August, Wyoming announced that it would roll out a contact tracing app using the Apple-Google API. Notably, however, the Wyoming app isn't restricted to the state itself.

Developed by ProudCrowd, Wyoming is using the same Care19 Alert app that is currently in use in North Dakota. Unlike the first version of Care19, the updated app in Wyoming is based on the Apple-Google API.

The app is available to download from iOS here and on the Google Play store here.

Washington, D.C.

The region rolled out support for Exposure Notification Express in late October.

Which states plan to use the Apple-Google API?

Along with states that have already debuted apps, there are several that have definitively announced that they would follow suit.

Hawaii

On Sept. 22, the Honolulu Star-Advertiser reported that Hawaii's first Apple-Google exposure notification app would be arriving in the near future.

The app, dubbed AlohaSafe Alert, would debut as the state of Hawaii expects a flood of tourists as coronavirus restrictions ease.

Among U.S. states, Hawaii has had some of the strictest quarantine and no-entry policies during the pandemic. Visitors, for example, needed to self-quarantine for 14 days once arriving in the state. But those policies are set to expire in October.

It isn't clear exactly when AlohaSafe Alert will roll out to users, but it's likely that the state's health department is looking for a date before the expected tourist boom.

South Carolina

In a joint Apple-Google statement to AppleInsider, the two companies said that South Carolina would be one of the first U.S. states to build out a contact tracing app, tentatively called "SC-Safer-Together," using their Exposure Notification framework.

However, a spokesperson for South Carolina's Department of Health and Environmental Control has since clarified that the state has "no plans to pursue this application." The DHEC had only received a memorandum of understanding from the Medical University of South Carolina authorizing it to "explore the potential development" of an app using the Apple-Google framework

A spokesperson for MUSC added that they are still in the "development, evaluation and state-level discussion and review stage of things," adding that the project has not been approved or deployed by any state-level agency.

As of Aug. 26, South Carolina has not yet released its app.

States that plan to use Exposure Notification Express

In April, five of the westernmost states in the U.S. created a coalition dubbed the Western States Pact to spearhead coronavirus response and public health strategies. It includes California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, and Colorado.

Many of those states were originally undecided about exposure notification and digital contact tracing. But in September, the Western Pact States announced the launch of a pilot program to use built-in Exposure Notification Express to track the spread of COVID-19.

Exposure Notification Express, launched in iOS 13.7, brings the Apple and Google system to users who live in a state without a dedicated exposure notification app. The system, however, still requires that a state health department support it.

The program will be piloted in specific areas, such as on college campuses. If it is deemed effective by state health authorities, it could roll out to the general public by late 2020 or early 2021.

States that are undecided about digital contact tracing

Since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic and the Apple and Google announcement of Exposure Notification, many states have been silent about whether they plan to use the framework.

Several states told AppleInsider that they would continue to evaluate the situation, but other states that we reached out to did not respond.

On the other hand, in June, Business Insider asked every U.S. state whether they would use digital contact tracing in their efforts to curb coronavirus. The majority said they were undecided.

States that don't plan to use smartphone contact tracing

Beyond states that haven't made up their mind about digital contact tracing, there are a handful of states that said they would not use any type of smartphone-based system.

Per Business Insider's inquiry, the following states also plan to rely on human contact tracers: Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Missouri, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Tennessee and Vermont.

In a statement to AppleInsider, Texas also confirmed earlier in 2020 that it would not use a smartphone-based system.

On the other hand, Delaware was among those that told BI they wouldn't use a contact tracing app. Several months later, they appear to have changed their mind per Pennsylvania's announcement that its app would be interoperable with one in the state. In other words, the situation is fluid. We'll update this list when we know more about each state's plans.

Other digital contact tracing methods across the U.S.

Utah's Healthy Together app is currently in beta, but it doesn't use the Apple-Google Exposure Notification API.
Utah's Healthy Together app is currently in beta, but it doesn't use the Apple-Google Exposure Notification API.


Like some countries in Europe, however, there are several states that have released contact tracing apps without the Exposure Notification framework. Similarly, some states have claimed that they won't use phone-based contact tracing at all. Here's a current list of them.

Utah's "Healthy Together"

Utah released its first contact tracing app, Healthy Together, in late April -- after Apple and Google announced their framework. The app, developed by social media startup Twenty, is currently in beta testing as of May 14.

Healthy Together uses a mix of personally identifiable GPS data, cell tower triangulation and Bluetooth signal data to keep tabs on the people that a user comes into contact with. The data it collects may be shared with Utah state officials, as well as some members of Twenty's development staff.

On Utah's website, the state says that it uses location data because systems that rely only on Bluetooth, like the Apple-Google API, aren't accurate enough. In addition to contact tracing, the app also contains features for finding nearby COVID-19 testing facilities and receiving test results.

In August, Utah was said to be looking for a new app, though it isn't clear if it will opt for one based on the Apple-Google framework.

Care19 in South Dakota

On April 7, three days before the Apple-Google API announcement, the state of North Dakota launched a free mobile contact tracing app called Care19. Eventually, neighboring South Dakota also began urging residents to install the app.

But while North Dakota eventually changed course and adopted the Apple-Google framework with a new update to Care19, it appears that South Dakota has not followed suit.

As of Aug. 26, the Care19 Alert app claims to only work in North Dakota and Wyoming. Another app on the App Store, Care19 Diary, is available in South Dakota but does not use the Apple-Google API.

International context




Even though Apple and Google announced their application programming interface (API) in April, it wasn't ready to deploy. The first beta version of the Exposure Notification system was released in late April.

Despite the fact that it hasn't been released, Apple and Google have already taken some fire from public health agencies on their strong privacy-focused approach.

Countries like the U.K., France and Germany were said to be in a "standoff" with the two American tech giants over the decentralized nature of how contact data is stored. Some of those countries have conceded, while the U.K. has pushed on with its own proprietary solution.

But contact tracing apps without the Apple-Google API have their own setbacks. Early COVID-19 contact tracing apps deployed in places such as Singapore suffered from user inconvenience due to the fact that they required a phone to remain unlocked and a user to keep the app open to work properly.

As of August 2020, many countries across Europe have released contact tracing apps based on the Apple-Google API. That includes Canada, Ireland, Switzerland, Latvia, Germany and Italy. Even UK, initially a holdout, changed course and decided to adopt the framework.
«13

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 48
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,408member
    Invasions of privacy? Spying? If one engages in such a program voluntarily, I guess you get what you get. Forced compliance would be a huge problem.
    lkruppwilliamlondonrazorpitcat52
  • Reply 2 of 48
    Rhode island rolled out an app three days ago called Crush Covid RI
  • Reply 3 of 48
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,309member


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    lkruppspheric
  • Reply 4 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,185member


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?
    edited June 2020 cat52
  • Reply 5 of 48
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,309member
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
  • Reply 6 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,185member
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.
    edited June 2020 cat52SpamSandwich
  • Reply 7 of 48
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,309member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
  • Reply 8 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,185member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
    And there we have it. Dodge the question again. 

    This time I wasn't asking how the app should be designed or even if smartphone apps should be used.at all. I clearly asked if you, GeorgeBMac, would allow your credit card activity be monitored by the US government in order to better track your movements if it assisted in an effort to protect us from you in case you were to encounter a Covid-infected acquaintance, or horrors be infected yourself? You can hardly claim you don't have any opinions.

    Those scientists and experts in South Korea say it has value as a tracking point for your contacts and they will and are doing it. We'll have to change some US law to permit it but that can be done. 

    So is there a level of personal privacy you'd be willing to sacrifice for the common good, protect innocents from George or George's family?
    To be clear I'm not claiming tracking your purchases would have any value altho the experts and scientists in South Korea currently say it does and you've frequently mentioned them as a shining example of how do Covid control right. 
    edited June 2020 cat52
  • Reply 9 of 48
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,309member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
    And there we have it. Dodge the question again. 

    This time I wasn't asking how the app should be designed or even if smartphone apps should be used.at all. I clearly asked if you, GeorgeBMac, would allow your credit card activity be monitored by the US government in order to better track your movements if it assisted in an effort to protect us from you in case you were to encounter a Covid-infected acquaintance, or horrors be infected yourself? You can hardly claim you don't have any opinions.

    Those scientists and experts in South Korea say it has value as a tracking point for your contacts and they will and are doing it. We'll have to change some US law to permit it but that can be done. 

    So is there a level of personal privacy you'd be willing to sacrifice for the common good, protect innocents from George or George's family?
    To be clear I'm not claiming tracking your purchases would have any value altho the experts and scientists in South Korea currently say it does and you've frequently mentioned them as a shining example of how do Covid control right. 

    LOL... So, you didn't like the answer, so you change the question?    Got it.

    Why is it that you don't mind Google collecting and selling your private information.   But when your own government does it to save lives and livlihoods you have a hissy fit?
  • Reply 10 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,185member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
    And there we have it. Dodge the question again. 

    This time I wasn't asking how the app should be designed or even if smartphone apps should be used.at all. I clearly asked if you, GeorgeBMac, would allow your credit card activity be monitored by the US government in order to better track your movements if it assisted in an effort to protect us from you in case you were to encounter a Covid-infected acquaintance, or horrors be infected yourself? You can hardly claim you don't have any opinions.

    Those scientists and experts in South Korea say it has value as a tracking point for your contacts and they will and are doing it. We'll have to change some US law to permit it but that can be done. 

    So is there a level of personal privacy you'd be willing to sacrifice for the common good, protect innocents from George or George's family?
    To be clear I'm not claiming tracking your purchases would have any value altho the experts and scientists in South Korea currently say it does and you've frequently mentioned them as a shining example of how do Covid control right. 

    LOL... So, you didn't like the answer, so you change the question?    Got it.

    Why is it that you don't mind Google collecting and selling your private information.   
    Oh, now you'll try using distraction along with changing the subject. Nice pivot to another logical fallacy. 
    But I'll play along for a minute.

    You claim Google is selling my personal information.  Well please do me and the rest of the forum a huge favor and post that proof. If you're stating the truth I'll drop em' in a second and strongly advise others do too. I'll also sign on to the guaranteed class action. So give us that proof George... unless you're not speaking the truth. 
    edited June 2020 cat52
  • Reply 11 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,185member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
    And there we have it. Dodge the question again. 

    This time I wasn't asking how the app should be designed or even if smartphone apps should be used.at all. I clearly asked if you, GeorgeBMac, would allow your credit card activity be monitored by the US government in order to better track your movements if it assisted in an effort to protect us from you in case you were to encounter a Covid-infected acquaintance, or horrors be infected yourself? You can hardly claim you don't have any opinions.

    Those scientists and experts in South Korea say it has value as a tracking point for your contacts and they will and are doing it. We'll have to change some US law to permit it but that can be done. 

    So is there a level of personal privacy you'd be willing to sacrifice for the common good, protect innocents from George or George's family?
    To be clear I'm not claiming tracking your purchases would have any value altho the experts and scientists in South Korea currently say it does and you've frequently mentioned them as a shining example of how do Covid control right. 

    ...when your own government does it to save lives and livlihoods you have a hissy fit?
    I think you might be commenting on what part of your privacy you're willing to give up, in this case the details of your purchases and therefor travels. Am I correct? That's the only specific private item in question that's been raised so far. Can you clarify it so we can have an honest discourse based on actual positions and not imagined ones?
    cat52
  • Reply 12 of 48
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,309member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
    And there we have it. Dodge the question again. 

    This time I wasn't asking how the app should be designed or even if smartphone apps should be used.at all. I clearly asked if you, GeorgeBMac, would allow your credit card activity be monitored by the US government in order to better track your movements if it assisted in an effort to protect us from you in case you were to encounter a Covid-infected acquaintance, or horrors be infected yourself? You can hardly claim you don't have any opinions.

    Those scientists and experts in South Korea say it has value as a tracking point for your contacts and they will and are doing it. We'll have to change some US law to permit it but that can be done. 

    So is there a level of personal privacy you'd be willing to sacrifice for the common good, protect innocents from George or George's family?
    To be clear I'm not claiming tracking your purchases would have any value altho the experts and scientists in South Korea currently say it does and you've frequently mentioned them as a shining example of how do Covid control right. 

    ...when your own government does it to save lives and livlihoods you have a hissy fit?
    I think you might be commenting on what part of your privacy you're willing to give up, in this case the details of your purchases and therefor travels. Am I correct? That's the only specific private item in question that's been raised so far. Can you clarify it so we can have an honest discourse based on actual positions and not imagined ones?

    Again, you avoided answering the question.....   Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything 

  • Reply 13 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,185member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
    And there we have it. Dodge the question again. 

    This time I wasn't asking how the app should be designed or even if smartphone apps should be used.at all. I clearly asked if you, GeorgeBMac, would allow your credit card activity be monitored by the US government in order to better track your movements if it assisted in an effort to protect us from you in case you were to encounter a Covid-infected acquaintance, or horrors be infected yourself? You can hardly claim you don't have any opinions.

    Those scientists and experts in South Korea say it has value as a tracking point for your contacts and they will and are doing it. We'll have to change some US law to permit it but that can be done. 

    So is there a level of personal privacy you'd be willing to sacrifice for the common good, protect innocents from George or George's family?
    To be clear I'm not claiming tracking your purchases would have any value altho the experts and scientists in South Korea currently say it does and you've frequently mentioned them as a shining example of how do Covid control right. 

    ...when your own government does it to save lives and livlihoods you have a hissy fit?
    I think you might be commenting on what part of your privacy you're willing to give up, in this case the details of your purchases and therefor travels. Am I correct? That's the only specific private item in question that's been raised so far. Can you clarify it so we can have an honest discourse based on actual positions and not imagined ones?

    Again, you avoided answering the question.....   Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything 

    You'd have to show where I was having the hissy fit about potential data collection points first.  Since I wasn't you aren't asking a valid question, only one you made up based on a false premise plucked from imagination. You might as well asked me why I hate vanilla without ever asking me if I do.

    So that's yet another logical fallacy you're employing instead of doing the easy honest thing and state your positions. You're on a roll, yet think you're being smart? 
     
    You aren't shy to offer regular criticism, even sometimes destructive criticism, but wouldn't constructive be better?  If you're unsure of the difference it would include some of the same legitimate complaints you voice now, but going on to explain the specifics of how you think you would improve it. Why specifically would what George wants to do work? What does George think is an acceptable compromise?

    Complaining is easy and requires no thought or reason, little children do it all the time, then leave it up to hopefully intelligent parents to sort. Are you the child or the intelligent parent? I'm sure you consider yourself the latter. Don't hide from those answers you have.  It doesn't matter if some might not agree. We're all relative nobody's trying to make our voices heard. If you don't have constructive suggestions no one is really listening to you. 
    edited June 2020 cat52
  • Reply 14 of 48
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,309member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
    And there we have it. Dodge the question again. 

    This time I wasn't asking how the app should be designed or even if smartphone apps should be used.at all. I clearly asked if you, GeorgeBMac, would allow your credit card activity be monitored by the US government in order to better track your movements if it assisted in an effort to protect us from you in case you were to encounter a Covid-infected acquaintance, or horrors be infected yourself? You can hardly claim you don't have any opinions.

    Those scientists and experts in South Korea say it has value as a tracking point for your contacts and they will and are doing it. We'll have to change some US law to permit it but that can be done. 

    So is there a level of personal privacy you'd be willing to sacrifice for the common good, protect innocents from George or George's family?
    To be clear I'm not claiming tracking your purchases would have any value altho the experts and scientists in South Korea currently say it does and you've frequently mentioned them as a shining example of how do Covid control right. 

    ...when your own government does it to save lives and livlihoods you have a hissy fit?
    I think you might be commenting on what part of your privacy you're willing to give up, in this case the details of your purchases and therefor travels. Am I correct? That's the only specific private item in question that's been raised so far. Can you clarify it so we can have an honest discourse based on actual positions and not imagined ones?

    Again, you avoided answering the question.....   Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything 

    You'd have to show where I was having the hissy fit about potential data collection points first.  Since I wasn't you aren't asking a valid question, only one you made up based on a false premise plucked from imagination. You might as well asked me why I hate vanilla without ever asking me if I do.

    So that's yet another logical fallacy you're employing instead of doing the easy honest thing and state your positions. You're on a roll, yet think you're being smart? 
     
    You aren't shy to offer regular criticism, even sometimes destructive criticism, but wouldn't constructive be better?  If you're unsure of the difference it would include some of the same legitimate complaints you voice now, but going on to explain the specifics of how you think you would improve it. Why specifically would what George wants to do work? What does George think is an acceptable compromise?

    Complaining is easy and requires no thought or reason, little children do it all the time, then leave it up to hopefully intelligent parents to sort. Are you the child or the intelligent parent? I'm sure you consider yourself the latter. Don't hide from those answers you have.  It doesn't matter if some might not agree. We're all relative nobody's trying to make our voices heard. If you don't have constructive suggestions no one is really listening to you. 

    Now don't get hissy on my again....   I just merely fed to you the same crap you've tried to feed to me.  
    Actually, I copy and pasted your own words -- but now your acting all insulted.   BooHoo!
  • Reply 15 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,185member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
    And there we have it. Dodge the question again. 

    This time I wasn't asking how the app should be designed or even if smartphone apps should be used.at all. I clearly asked if you, GeorgeBMac, would allow your credit card activity be monitored by the US government in order to better track your movements if it assisted in an effort to protect us from you in case you were to encounter a Covid-infected acquaintance, or horrors be infected yourself? You can hardly claim you don't have any opinions.

    Those scientists and experts in South Korea say it has value as a tracking point for your contacts and they will and are doing it. We'll have to change some US law to permit it but that can be done. 

    So is there a level of personal privacy you'd be willing to sacrifice for the common good, protect innocents from George or George's family?
    To be clear I'm not claiming tracking your purchases would have any value altho the experts and scientists in South Korea currently say it does and you've frequently mentioned them as a shining example of how do Covid control right. 

    ...when your own government does it to save lives and livlihoods you have a hissy fit?
    I think you might be commenting on what part of your privacy you're willing to give up, in this case the details of your purchases and therefor travels. Am I correct? That's the only specific private item in question that's been raised so far. Can you clarify it so we can have an honest discourse based on actual positions and not imagined ones?

    Again, you avoided answering the question.....   Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything 

    You'd have to show where I was having the hissy fit about potential data collection points first.  Since I wasn't you aren't asking a valid question, only one you made up based on a false premise plucked from imagination. You might as well asked me why I hate vanilla without ever asking me if I do.

    So that's yet another logical fallacy you're employing instead of doing the easy honest thing and state your positions. You're on a roll, yet think you're being smart? 
     
    You aren't shy to offer regular criticism, even sometimes destructive criticism, but wouldn't constructive be better?  If you're unsure of the difference it would include some of the same legitimate complaints you voice now, but going on to explain the specifics of how you think you would improve it. Why specifically would what George wants to do work? What does George think is an acceptable compromise?

    Complaining is easy and requires no thought or reason, little children do it all the time, then leave it up to hopefully intelligent parents to sort. Are you the child or the intelligent parent? I'm sure you consider yourself the latter. Don't hide from those answers you have.  It doesn't matter if some might not agree. We're all relative nobody's trying to make our voices heard. If you don't have constructive suggestions no one is really listening to you. 

    Now don't get hissy on my again....   I just merely fed to you the same crap you've tried to feed to me.  
    Actually, I copy and pasted your own words -- but now your acting all insulted.   BooHoo!
    *sigh* Same as it ever was. No answers.
    edited June 2020 cat52
  • Reply 16 of 48
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,309member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:


    The Apple and Google contact tracing system ....

    LOL...  It ISN'T a "Contact Tracing System" -- That's why they renamed it!   It merely, in some cases, identifies exposure -- providing those infected decide to report the infection.
    From a public health viewpoint, it is more laughable than effective.

    But then, that is why the U.S. is #1 in both deaths and infections:   it has been using (and continues to use) denial, rhetoric and crossed fingers instead of evidence based science to protect its people.   Essentially, the U.S. chose to protect Wall Street and, to a lesser extent, Main Street rather than its people and its citizens.

    The result of that misguided policy?
    --  Many foolish, misguided people think "It's over, I can do whatever I want, however I want"
    -- Testing is still woefully inadequate
    --  Contact tracing continues to use 100 year old technology.  That's remiscent of the now defunct U.S. Steel Industry that tried to compete with Asian steel using 100 year old Bessemer Furnaces and Blooming Mills...

    The comparisons are stark and vivid:
    -- In China, where the virus is totally under control, they are ramping UP testing to levels unthinkable here in the U.S -- and thus protecting both industry and the people who work in it.
    -- In the U.S., we are considering holding employers harmless if they kill their workers with unsafe conditions.  As a result of its denial and recklessness, U.S. related stock markets plunged yesterday amidst fears of a second wave.
    What would you suggest as a way to use smartphones in a reliable and effective method of contact tracing? Not "just like China" or "just like South Korea", something more specific in your very own words. What would GeorgeBMac find acceptable and recommend to the rest of us?

    Uh,  how about one that actually works?   You know, one that actually works to identify and remove infectious people from our streets?   That seems like it would be a good idea.

    I'll leave it to the scientists to design.   You can go with your DIY stuff if you want.
    As I said a few days ago you don't answer questions. Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything? What is my DIY stuff? I like the human and manual contact tracing we've used for years, tho with the number of Covid cases that system might be overwhelmed. 

    BTW, scientists in Australia designed their Covid tracing app basing it on Singapore's TraceTogether that employs personally identifiable and trackable data. I remember you praising Singapore's design. So how effective has it been for the Aussie's. In the entire month of May with millions of downloads reported they were able to track... Wait for it...

    One single infection. 

    So another question: Have you looked in detail how South Korea is contact tracking Covid? I have.
    Will George be willing for the US government to collect, store and examine your credit card purchases so as to know where George goes and when? If you answer this one I have two more. Then we can have an honest discussion with our positions known.

    I did answer your question:   I'll leave the design of an effective tracing tool to the experts and scientists.  
    What part of that did you not understand?

    BTW, your memory is faulty.
    And there we have it. Dodge the question again. 

    This time I wasn't asking how the app should be designed or even if smartphone apps should be used.at all. I clearly asked if you, GeorgeBMac, would allow your credit card activity be monitored by the US government in order to better track your movements if it assisted in an effort to protect us from you in case you were to encounter a Covid-infected acquaintance, or horrors be infected yourself? You can hardly claim you don't have any opinions.

    Those scientists and experts in South Korea say it has value as a tracking point for your contacts and they will and are doing it. We'll have to change some US law to permit it but that can be done. 

    So is there a level of personal privacy you'd be willing to sacrifice for the common good, protect innocents from George or George's family?
    To be clear I'm not claiming tracking your purchases would have any value altho the experts and scientists in South Korea currently say it does and you've frequently mentioned them as a shining example of how do Covid control right. 

    ...when your own government does it to save lives and livlihoods you have a hissy fit?
    I think you might be commenting on what part of your privacy you're willing to give up, in this case the details of your purchases and therefor travels. Am I correct? That's the only specific private item in question that's been raised so far. Can you clarify it so we can have an honest discourse based on actual positions and not imagined ones?

    Again, you avoided answering the question.....   Defer, misdirect, change the discussion, avoid the question, and other techniques, but not a straight answer to anything 

    You'd have to show where I was having the hissy fit about potential data collection points first.  Since I wasn't you aren't asking a valid question, only one you made up based on a false premise plucked from imagination. You might as well asked me why I hate vanilla without ever asking me if I do.

    So that's yet another logical fallacy you're employing instead of doing the easy honest thing and state your positions. You're on a roll, yet think you're being smart? 
     
    You aren't shy to offer regular criticism, even sometimes destructive criticism, but wouldn't constructive be better?  If you're unsure of the difference it would include some of the same legitimate complaints you voice now, but going on to explain the specifics of how you think you would improve it. Why specifically would what George wants to do work? What does George think is an acceptable compromise?

    Complaining is easy and requires no thought or reason, little children do it all the time, then leave it up to hopefully intelligent parents to sort. Are you the child or the intelligent parent? I'm sure you consider yourself the latter. Don't hide from those answers you have.  It doesn't matter if some might not agree. We're all relative nobody's trying to make our voices heard. If you don't have constructive suggestions no one is really listening to you. 

    Now don't get hissy on my again....   I just merely fed to you the same crap you've tried to feed to me.  
    Actually, I copy and pasted your own words -- but now your acting all insulted.   BooHoo!
    *sigh* Same as it ever was. No answers.

    No real questions from you either...   Just Gotcha's!
    Work hard on it.   You're smart.  I'm sure you can come up with something worthwhile to contribute.
  • Reply 17 of 48
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,335member
    The discussion here is pretty much a snapshot of why things won't change.  The vast majority of people simply know how to find fault with and criticize everything.  Nothing is good enough unless it's a nonexistent silver bullet solution, which they probably wouldn't even recognize if it came about because they've conditioned themselves to knee jerk react with criticism.

    I like exposure notification.  Is it a silver bullet?   No, not unless everyone in the world buys a phone, installs an app which ties into the same notification system, carries their phone everywhere with them, and if they are diagnosed with COVID, their health care provider reports it correctly to that notification system, and those notified get tested immediately, isolate until they get the results, and isolate if they test positive.  That said, even if it only detects and notifies a few people about a single case of COVID, that's better than doing nothing at all.
    edited August 2020 seanj
  • Reply 18 of 48
    mknelsonmknelson Posts: 830member
    Invasions of privacy? Spying? If one engages in such a program voluntarily, I guess you get what you get. Forced compliance would be a huge problem.
    What invasion of privacy? What spying?

    In theory I suppose if they knew your "drug dealer" tested positive and submitted the one time code they might be able to see who shows up for testing and maybe have some weak evidence that you were within 6 ft of that "drug dealer" for at least 15 minutes. Otherwise, pure FUD.
    gatorguydarkvader
  • Reply 19 of 48
    mknelson said:
    Invasions of privacy? Spying? If one engages in such a program voluntarily, I guess you get what you get. Forced compliance would be a huge problem.
    What invasion of privacy? What spying?

    In theory I suppose if they knew your "drug dealer" tested positive and submitted the one time code they might be able to see who shows up for testing and maybe have some weak evidence that you were within 6 ft of that "drug dealer" for at least 15 minutes. Otherwise, pure FUD.
    Dude. Get real. This is the epitome of spying. Only this time by using social engineering to get people to give up their privacy freely. 

    For years, we have railed against secret location data recording, contacts being uploaded to twitter, etc. and the infamous Obama dinner meeting with the major tech firms. 

    Apparently, all it takes is a pandemic for people to be fooled into giving up their personal details to the various governments using tech companies as shills...

    COVID is real. The need to provide treatment for it is real. But the need to invade peoples lives and privacy is a facade. 

    They didn't do it with AIDS - which is also worldwide. They don't need to start now - especially with the scary politicians coming up who can't wait to make what is yours - everyone elses. 

    Hold on to what little control you have. there are many who cannot wait to take it from you. The United States is one of the very last true bastions of freedom. It's worth fighting for tooth and nail. 
    gatorguyrazorpitmuthuk_vanalingamcat52
  • Reply 20 of 48
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,185member
    mknelson said:
    Invasions of privacy? Spying? If one engages in such a program voluntarily, I guess you get what you get. Forced compliance would be a huge problem.
    What invasion of privacy? What spying?

    In theory I suppose if they knew your "drug dealer" tested positive and submitted the one time code they might be able to see who shows up for testing and maybe have some weak evidence that you were within 6 ft of that "drug dealer" for at least 15 minutes. Otherwise, pure FUD.
    Dude. Get real. This is the epitome of spying. Only this time by using social engineering to get people to give up their privacy freely. 

    For years, we have railed against secret location data recording, contacts being uploaded to twitter, etc. and the infamous Obama dinner meeting with the major tech firms. 

    Apparently, all it takes is a pandemic for people to be fooled into giving up their personal details to the various governments using tech companies as shills...

    COVID is real. The need to provide treatment for it is real. But the need to invade peoples lives and privacy is a facade. 

    They didn't do it with AIDS - which is also worldwide. They don't need to start now - especially with the scary politicians coming up who can't wait to make what is yours - everyone elses. 

    Hold on to what little control you have. there are many who cannot wait to take it from you. The United States is one of the very last true bastions of freedom. It's worth fighting for tooth and nail. 
    How would you be identified, how would the person you were exposed to be identified, and how the heck would your location be revealed? Read up on it, then once armed with at least a little actual knowledge try answering any of those questions.

    Seriously, so much FUD in one post. Are you that lazy about reading how it works before posting nonsense? This is why we can't have nice things.
    edited August 2020 darkvaderseanj
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