Epic Games vs Apple -- the whole story



  • Reply 101 of 109
    omasouomasou Posts: 548member
    Very comprehensive article. I thought, I was making progress (almost at the end) reading through it but WAY TOO long.

    IMHO Epic's failure is attempting to have courts declare Apple a monopoly. No lower court, will attempt to "redefine" a monopoly. And expecting pre-teens/teens to revolt and carry their cause. Hey Epic Fortnite's user base doesn't buy iPhones or apps, their parents do!

    Basically, the app store is an extension of the platform and they will have a difficult time separating the two. Yeah, they can say but I can buy PS4 games from Walmart, I can install what I want on my PC, etc. but that argument is similar to why did you give me a ticket for speeding, look that guy is speeding too.

    The only thing Epic has succeeded in doing is loosing more money and faster on a franchise that was already in decline and placed themselves in a negative light that will negative impact their remaining franchises.
    edited November 2022
  • Reply 102 of 109
    They could be happily making billions, this was just stupid.
  • Reply 103 of 109
    kmareikmarei Posts: 176member
    Apple shoud get whatever their cut is for the price of the game, sure
    but for apple to take 30% for me to buy v-bucks that only exist in the game is just highway robbery
    i am not using the apple servers, or infrastrutcure in any way for me to sell v-bucks (me being epic)
    so why are they getting a cut?
    same for any subscription service (netflix, spotify etc)

    thankfully i think the european union will have a lot more say on this matter

    edited April 2023 williamlondon
  • Reply 104 of 109
    thttht Posts: 5,363member
    kmarei said:
    Apple shoud get whatever their cut is for the price of the game, sure
    but for apple to take 30% for me to buy v-bucks that only exist in the game is just highway robbery
    i am not using the apple servers, or infrastrutcure in any way for me to sell v-bucks (me being epic)
    so why are they getting a cut?
    same for any subscription service (netflix, spotify etc)

    thankfully i think the european union will have a lot more say on this matter
    You could buy V-bucks from Epic's web store, as a gift card, from XBox Fortnite, from PS Fortnite, from Windows Fortnite, and who knows where else. I bought V-bucks from my iPhone, iPad, and XBox interchangeably for my kiddo when he played Fortnite a lot. Epic would have keep 100% share of revenue from their Web Store, and probably 90% for the gift cards. They had a lot of options.

    As was admitted by Sweeney's testimony during the trial, time-shifted purchases of V-bucks wasn't enough. They wanted 100% share of the revenue from impulse buyers. It was never a question of how much it costs to support some payment feature. It was probably something to do with having 100% control of their customer base and to eliminate any middlemen. They could have just increased the price of V-bucks from Apple platforms and advertised that players could get V-bucks if they went to their Web Store, but didn't for who knows why.

    I'm still confused as to why Epic nuked their relationship with Apple and Google. The "not letting Apple and Google control the metaverse" rationale is obviously irrational now. It was not rationale back then either. The Apple platform share of Fortnite revenues was only 7%. They went through all this over 3% Fortnite revenue share? That's craziness.
  • Reply 105 of 109
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,239member
    If you really want to know what Epic wants, look at their own IAP stores.

    You know, the ones that got fined $520 million for collecting under-13 kids’ information ILLEGALLY (what half the fine covers), and also lured purchasers into IAP that they couldn’t get a refund on or cancel without getting threats of banning from Epic (the second half of this record-setting fine).

    That is Epic’s idea of App Store “liberty.”

    Apple was very wise to drop this company, and I think it is clear to anyone who has eyes in their head what Epic really wants the “freedom” to do to iOS/Mac players, and is doing to players on other platforms.
  • Reply 106 of 109
    lkrupp said:
    sflocal said:
    What is conveniently ignored is that for many commercial businesses, landlords also stipulate rent is not only a monthly amount, but also a percentage of sales.  Epic has it easy compared to others.  I hope Epic fails hard.
    Yep. Back in the late 70’s I managed a music store in a large mall. Not only did we pay rent based on square footage, we also had to pay a percentage of our gross income just for the privilege of being in that mall. The concept was the same as Apple. The mall developers had built the mall, maintained the mall, marketed the mall. The mall’s existence attracted foot traffic thereby increasing tenant’s access to potential customers. We had to sell a lot of pianos, organs, and guitar picks just to make rent. We could have moved outside the mall to a standalone building but that would have been the kiss of death in terms of sales.

    I see no difference in what Apple does with the App Store and what every other commercial landlord has been doing forever. Epic knows full well that they will make more money within the App Store than having their own store outside it. They want their cake and to eat it too.
    Your analogy fails in the sense that in this case there are only two landlords in the world (set aside China): Landlord Google and Landlord Apple. That is a problem. A big problem.

    Also, no modern real estate landlord (this is not the 1970s!) is demanding a 30% fee of gross income. That entity would quickly be sued out of existence and/or quickly ignored.

    The analogy is correct. You can access any iOS or Android device via the Internet either through websites or dedicated PWAs. The idea you have to use either store is asinine.

    And before someone chimes in that websites aren’t as good as an App I suggest you look at the adult entertainment industry. They rival YouTube in terms of functionality and work strictly within the confines of a browser (since adult content is prohibited from the Play Store and App Store).

    Plus you’re leaving out the fact that if you sell a subscription (Spotify or Netflix) you can also bypass either store and have people sign up at your website instead. In which case Apple/Google get zero even though they’re hosting your App for untold millions of users downloads/updates.

    This article and the comment section reminded of how many people are clueless about this situation and their only argument seems to be “Apple bad”. 
  • Reply 107 of 109
    Ultimately, Epic’s Sweeney is just a frontman for the Chinese government. Try to craft a favorable narrative around forcing America’s big tech companies to give China a free storefront on their hard-earned platforms to keep America funding an unfriendly China. 

    No thank you. 

    Apple created their own platform in a market that desperately needs as much security and privacy it can get - the personal phone/device. 

    Apple has processes in place to protect customers from bad actors and just plain bad software. Though it’s not perfect as nothing is, it’s WAY better than the other guys and also light years ahead of the old Wild West days of downloading and seeing what happens -or worse - paying for something and then really seeing what happens. A billion people taking your money with their own version of what a “policy” is. And so many having their identities - and yes, money, stolen. 

    Also of concern is the fact that popular apps can even right now send our data -invasive data- to foreign governments - governments that don’t share our values and don’t care about it. Governments that have hostile posturing. 

    And that’s only one bad angle. Never mind the thought that if you build something, someone else is allowed to waltz on in and dictate to you what you do with it. 

    If you invest and build something, you get to do what you want with it. That’s free market. If people don’t like the direction you go, they can pull out of partnerships, not buy your product, etc. then you fail. But if they like it, they buy your wares and you have some strength. You can dictate certain things like store fees. That’s been around forever. 

    Even a traditional book store would require an author to sell them books at a 50% discount so they can profit. In the end everyone benefits. The author/publisher makes massive money in increased sales numbers, and so does the bookstore. That’s just how it works. 

    The same deal with wal mart, target, car dealerships, etc. they don’t stay open and continue to provide jobs by not making a profit. The manufacturer sacrifices some msrp to get in that store. It works out well for everyone. 

    And now we have some greedy company like epic/China that wants to trick American and EU judges into shooting it down. All for selfish motives. 

    No thanks. We like having a free market that has provided these things and we have dictated with out money over centuries as a people to get here. You start treating it the way Russia or China or Iran do and you end up with those kinds of economies where everything is bootlegged, nothing can be trusted, and the only real profit you can rely on is oil, gas, and spyware. 

    As users of these things, we want as much curated security, privacy, reliability, and familiarity as we can possibly get. Heck, we are paying a premium to get exactly that. On purpose. I can go buy a cheaper android or tizen right now. But I spend more to get apple. Why? Because I TRUST them. I don’t want some creepy store popping up on my phone using who knows what system to take my money who knows elsewhere. No thanks. 

    Someone or some group aiming to destroy a security and privacy infrastructure loved and chosen by actual BILLIONS of people just so they can line their pockets and gain spy vectors is digital terrorism. 

    These shady developers may want to have their need for greed heard in court, but we customers want our needs heard too - and they don’t at all align with the like of Sweeney or China. 

    So you’re telling me that customers have zero choice to buy something where every step has been made in order to provide a tightly secure, private, reliable and easy to use system to get what we want? To heck with whatever worldview that is. 

    Give me the familiar trusted apple gateway and experience that I’ve been enjoying - because that’s what I paid for. 
    edited December 2023 Detnator
  • Reply 108 of 109
    Sweeney just seeking free publicity and wasting everybody’s time
    Interest in Fortnite has dwindled from what it was
    The App Store stands for securïty and Apple is entitled to be paid for its administration
     Side loading will destroy the privacy and security that many of us enjoy
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