Men are not the oppressors, they are the oppressed.
Sorry but something Sammy Jo said in a thread set me off on a bit of a rant that would have been off-topic so I decided to post my rant here instead. She made a claim about women and education.
If women are so oppressed nowadays why do they make up almost 55% of our college population?
Meanwhile men make up the majority of disciplinary referrals, special ed referrals, dropouts, prison population, and suicides.
How come women keep focusing on the glass ceiling when men are stuck in the glass celler? The 10 most dangerous (but high paying) jobs in the U.S. are 97% men, but I don't see women screaming to become oil refinery workers. Men also make up 97% of all work place deaths. You want to try oppressed? I don't think you get much more oppressed than dead.
Why would men work such jobs? Heck they were probably ordered there by courts for support payments since a woman can make a choice about her body but a man can't. Also courts see men as paychecks and not parents. A woman can just write down a man's name and the courts will pursue that man and garnish his wages without any proof whatsoever.
Lastly, could you imagine going to jail just for quitting a job? Well if you are deemed to owe child support and you quit your job you can go to jail. How is that for my body, my choice? You cannot even choose where you want to work if you are a man. A court could literally order you to work yourself to your death in a glass cellar type job to earn enough to cover whatever they have decided is necessary.
My body, my choice, unless the court decides that I don't earn enough and must continue to work at a job regardless of how it harms my health, regardless of whether the employer provides safe working conditions, regardless of my freedom to do what I want with my body.
Do you think they would ever jail a woman for changing jobs? For earning less?
Nick
If women are so oppressed nowadays why do they make up almost 55% of our college population?
Meanwhile men make up the majority of disciplinary referrals, special ed referrals, dropouts, prison population, and suicides.
How come women keep focusing on the glass ceiling when men are stuck in the glass celler? The 10 most dangerous (but high paying) jobs in the U.S. are 97% men, but I don't see women screaming to become oil refinery workers. Men also make up 97% of all work place deaths. You want to try oppressed? I don't think you get much more oppressed than dead.
Why would men work such jobs? Heck they were probably ordered there by courts for support payments since a woman can make a choice about her body but a man can't. Also courts see men as paychecks and not parents. A woman can just write down a man's name and the courts will pursue that man and garnish his wages without any proof whatsoever.
Lastly, could you imagine going to jail just for quitting a job? Well if you are deemed to owe child support and you quit your job you can go to jail. How is that for my body, my choice? You cannot even choose where you want to work if you are a man. A court could literally order you to work yourself to your death in a glass cellar type job to earn enough to cover whatever they have decided is necessary.
Quote:
Court: jail OK for man who quit job, couldn't pay child support
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a federal law, the so-called Child Support Recovery Act, that makes it a jailable crime to "willfully" fail to pay child support by rejecting jobs. The March 11 ruling is binding in Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Washington State, and Guam.
The case was that of Jeffrey Ballek from Alaska, who had worked in construction and then quit for undisclosed reasons. The next series of jobs he took were at lower wages that did not allow him to pay support for his three children. He accumulated a nearly $57,000 debt over several years. Ballek was put on trial. The court said he broke the law by opting out of the higher-paid job, whether he did so for health reasons, poor working conditions, or any other reason. He was sentenced to six months in jail and still has to pay the debt
Court: jail OK for man who quit job, couldn't pay child support
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a federal law, the so-called Child Support Recovery Act, that makes it a jailable crime to "willfully" fail to pay child support by rejecting jobs. The March 11 ruling is binding in Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Washington State, and Guam.
The case was that of Jeffrey Ballek from Alaska, who had worked in construction and then quit for undisclosed reasons. The next series of jobs he took were at lower wages that did not allow him to pay support for his three children. He accumulated a nearly $57,000 debt over several years. Ballek was put on trial. The court said he broke the law by opting out of the higher-paid job, whether he did so for health reasons, poor working conditions, or any other reason. He was sentenced to six months in jail and still has to pay the debt
My body, my choice, unless the court decides that I don't earn enough and must continue to work at a job regardless of how it harms my health, regardless of whether the employer provides safe working conditions, regardless of my freedom to do what I want with my body.
Do you think they would ever jail a woman for changing jobs? For earning less?
Nick
Comments
" If you keep whispering into someone's ear that they are oppressed.... pretty soon they actually start to believe it must be true "..
This is called social conditioning by some, emancipation by others.
If you want an interesting perspective, read Camille Paglia.
There are probably more feminists who would agree with you as there are who would disagree. Please don't think women are all oof one mind on this stuff iether.
I recall one international feminist gab-fest that was attended by women from all over the world. The funny thing was that most of the 3rd world women & women representative of other non western cultures really gave the American & european W.A.S.P middle class women ( especially those with marxist pretensions ) a real hammering.
It all broke up, in disarray, without a single idea being agreed to.
Ha ha ha so much for Solidarity & sisterhood !
it's an industry, with lots of self righteous rhetoric, fist banging etc.
So don't stress out, there are lots of women who want you be a man who is respectable, loving & decent . And that can't be a bad thing for either men or women to be.
Besides which..life's too short.
I once had along, as in months long, debate about this issue with a prof, from first to second year. She had a bit of an advantage because back then I was still awed by credentials (another issue) but I pressed her to validate the attention to violence towards women as it was presented in the class.
Two things we immediately discovered:
You're much more likely to lose your son to violence than your daughter.
A woman is far more likely to suffer abuse at the hands of a stranger than domestically, (not including date-rape, which probably includes more strangers than well known men -- I question the defition of well known, so we'll leave it out) Focusing just on married women, today they are by far the safest and least likely to be assualted or harmed.
To me, these two verifiable social states call into question the validity of a modern feminist push to continue to view marriage as a harmful institution towards women specifically. In the latter case.
In the former, they call into question the politics of victimization, and a basic chauvanistic indifference towards men present in Women's Studies.
I continue to argue that a "Feminist" has become a female gendered analogue of the chauvanist pig that they all hate. They are the new castrating chauvanists. You're not allowed to point it out, or they brand you a neanderthal, but that's where it's gone. Feminism and women's studies has lived well past it's expiry date. Time for Gender studies, something less chauvanistic.
Actually, Just as the word to describe men who hate women is " Mysoginist " ; there is a word to describe women who hate men.
It is " Mysandrist."
( not " Mysanthropy " which is a general hatred of people )
But you will have trouble finding " Mysandrist " in most college dictionaries......
Hmm.........I wonder why?
I'm off to look it up.
This happened to my brother recently and I was just dumbfounded with belief. I thought "this virtual slavery couldn't possibly be true, not here in the grand ol'U.S. of A." (Sorry Matsu)
However he assured me it was and behold I looked it up and there it was. I found out about it because he had punched someone at his last job intentionally to get fired. By law he could not quit his job or they would send him to jail.
He had wanted to quit the job because he was being harassed by his supervisor after he found out the supervisor was sleeping with his secretary and not his wife.
The supervisor tried to get him to quit, because just our right firing him would be grounds for a lawsuit for retaliatory action. He did this not realizing that my brother couldn't quit. Then they started cutting his hours way down, but the support order doesn't adjust according to the number of hours worked, it was based off when he was working full time+overtime.
So now he was working 24-32 hours a week but still paying support ($1300 a month) like he was working 40-50 hours a week. He was getting to where he couldn't afford gas and food. He filed to have the amount adjusted but it takes 2-3 months to get through to a court date.
So he just up and punched one of his co-workers one day. They fired him. He went and immediately found another full time job. (He already had it lined up before, he just couldn't quit his job without the fear of going to jail) The court date rolled around and the DA still accused him of intentionally quitting his job. He made slightly less at this job (compared to what he was making full-time+overtime at the old place but more than he was making with the part-time they were giving him) but the schedule better allowed him to visit his daughters. (amazingly enough the DA never cared about that)
I just found it astonishing that without taking a single benefit from that state, or trying to commit fraud or things of that nature, you can be jailed for quitting a job regardless of the job quality and treatment, health hazards, scheduling regarding your ability to see your own children, etc.
Quit a job.....go to jail... amazing.
Nick
as a man, would any of have wanted to live life as a woman? (all jokes aside).
if i had been presented a choice, knowing what i know now, there's no way in hell i'd want to live as a woman, and that's in this country.
go to undeveloped nations and it sucks even worse.
(also to be fair the comment by sammi jo was referring to undeveloped nations)
sheesh, wouldn't have thought i'd be defending her comments ever.
Originally posted by trumptman
[B]Sorry but something Sammy Jo said in a thread set me off on a bit of a rant that would have been off-topic so I decided to post my rant here instead. She made a claim about women and education.
If women are so oppressed nowadays why do they make up almost 55% of our college population?
The original thread was about global warming. Someone made the connection between the population explosion and possible resulting increased potential for global warming. I then said that population growth stabilizes when the womenfolk within a community./society/nation whatever, get educated. The big population booms are in countries, many of them 3rd world, with patriarchal, male dominated societies, where the women *are* often oppressed. Trumptman came to the weird conclusion that I was talking about "oppressed women in the United States, where the population is relatively stable, as in most westernized industrial nations (if it wasn't for the thousands of illegals flooding in from Mexico, where traditional family sizes are larger and men are very much seen as the "head" of the household etc). How things get twisted.
Meanwhile men make up the majority of disciplinary referrals, special ed referrals, dropouts, prison population, and suicides.
Thats what one gets from having a society where men are mostly in charge: the expectation demanded by society of men, and the pressure of living up to that expectation. Let us not forget that old maxim: "Expectation is a prison". (It's the same with women...traditionally, women were expected to be "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen"...I know its a hackneyed old phrase but the traditional expectations of society tend to pigeonhole ones activities according to ones gender.
[sarcasm mode]By the way, there is a teeny, weeny, little, microscopic possibility that men might be more prone to violent activities than woman...., you know...things like starting wars, terrorism, fighting, raping, torturing, etc etc etc....you know...all the world's nastiest and most uncivilized human activities? How many women dictators, genocidal maniacs and paranoid power-crazed politicians are there? I know some folk in here have accused me of being a pinko feminist hippie lesbian...etc etc...yawn yawn.... to stand up for the causes of womenfolk will automatically get you assigned to that category today. It often seems that (many) men always want the pole positions in running the world, but shy away from the responsibilities. It's a bit like what th e US did in Afghanistan...bombed the place to shards but screw the rebuilding.[/sarcasm mode]
How come women keep focusing on the glass ceiling when men are stuck in the glass celler? The 10 most dangerous (but high paying) jobs in the U.S. are 97% men, but I don't see women screaming to become oil refinery workers.
Are men screaming to become oil refinery workers? How many openings are there for "women oil refinery workers" anyway? Maybe we don't work in oil refineries because we don't want to? Maybe we have less desire to get covered from head to foot with black glop.
Men also make up 97% of all work place deaths. You want to try oppressed? I don't think you get much more oppressed than dead.
Ever heard of that thing called tradition? Societies' old habits are hard to break. Also, when it comes to physical work, people do tend to gravitate towards the jobs that their bodies can do more easily. Men, on the whole just happen to be physically larger, more muscular, stronger...you get the drift.
Why would men work such jobs? Heck they were probably ordered there by courts for support payments since a woman can make a choice about her body but a man can't. Also courts see men as paychecks and not parents. A woman can just write down a man's name and the courts will pursue that man and garnish his wages without any proof whatsoever.
Thats what you get when big interfering government reaches into peoples' personal affairs. I am no fan of that either.
Lastly, could you imagine going to jail just for quitting a job? Well if you are deemed to owe child support and you quit your job you can go to jail. How is that for my body, my choice? You cannot even choose where you want to work if you are a man. A court could literally order you to work yourself to your death in a glass cellar type job to earn enough to cover whatever they have decided is necessary.
My body, my choice, unless the court decides that I don't earn enough and must continue to work at a job regardless of how it harms my health, regardless of whether the employer provides safe working conditions, regardless of my freedom to do what I want with my body.
Do you think they would ever jail a woman for changing jobs? For earning less?
Do you have statistics on that? I could come with some battered wives:battered husbands ratios if you like.
In the USA, for every dollar a man earns, a woman earns 76 cents. How about this for a solution? Women pay 24% less tax than men and we also get a mandatory 24% discount on any purchase. Now that would encourage parity.
Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce
You've got to be ****ing kidding me, trumptman. Tell me you're joking.
You should be careful Shawn, you use your full name on these forums. Have you ever thought about what would happen if some pregnant woman just wrote it down and declared you the father of her child?
If the court thinks it tried to contact you and you failed to appear. You would likely be declared the father and ordered to pay child support. You of course would be ignorant of all these proceedings. Meanwhile one day you get a nice letter from the university declaring that you can't have your financial aid. You are ineligable because you are a deadbeat dad.
Think it can't happen? Think again...
Penn Process for Paternity
Look at these sections in particular.
I got a document that claims I may be the biological father of a child. This document tells me that there will be a hearing about this matter. Should I just skip the hearing because I know I am not the father?
In Pennsylvania, if you do not appear at certain stages of a paternity hearing this will result in an order declaring you the father of the child. The only way that it would not result in an order declaring you the father is if the mother or state is unable to show that you had notification of the hearing. This order is called a default order and it will include an order for you to begin to pay child support.
Some more...
What if a woman says I am the father of her child but I think that I am not the father?
If you never signed an Acknowledgment of Paternity and you were never married to the mother of the child, a suit can be brought against you to declare you the father. The mother, the child, or the local child support agency can sue to establish whether you are the biological father.
You will get a legal document that will have a date and time for you to appear at a court hearing. It is important that you appear at this hearing. If you do not appear, you may be declared the father of the child and owe child support.
Obviously this is written from the perspective of someone reading about paternity rights but the writing is clear. If there is a hearing, whether you know about it or not, you can be declared the father and have child support levied against you without a single shread of evidence. They do not even have to prove you were served in person or anything like that. They can just mail it to what the woman claimed is your address.
This has happened lots in California. Someone could literally look up your name in a directory at work or something and bam, later you discover you are in arrears for thousands of dollars of child support for someone you have never even met.
That is Shawn... Patrick....Joyce right?
Nick
Have a nice day.
Options cost money. Many of the women who earn less, have also worked less. Less signority, less experience, more unpaid leave to have/raise children. They have two avenues (domestic and professional) open to them, and employers simply don't like the risk.
But yes, also just plain old sexism too.
However, some things are fixable just with a good re-adjustment of practice.
Why not legally entitle married men to a maternity leave of equal time to that enjoyed by their wives? Then, you take away the employer's legimate concern that women will leave to have/raise families.
Not overnight, I know, but if men had the same rights and supports regarding the choice to stay home, they would become as expensive (or potentially expensive) as women. You take away a valid reason for wage discrimination.
Of course, men actually are quite expensive because they tend to jump from company to company, so that businesses still lose a trained individual to other businesses.
Businesses certainly were/are sexist in places, but today some of the difference we see might be the result of the market responding to one inequality with another.
But then again, whadda I know, the women I work with all make as much or more than the men in similar posts.
"Women are more likely to be against wars because of their biology"
Thanks. Because of my biology my ability to have feeling for other human beings are somehow not to its full potetial. I especiailly love it argument like "its just because all the leaders are men we have war". When I ask about Margaret Fatcher the answer is often (with a little shy laughter): "Well she isn+t reallya woman is she?" Circular argument if I ever saw one
"All men are potiential rapists"
"Since I am a woman I am by definition worse of than men".
No you are not. It depends completly on your individual course of life. On average women doesn´t have the chances men do. But that doesn´t mean YOU as an individual meet more hardship than your brother. In some cases its the other way round actually. Its still much harder for a man with working class background to get into the university here than a woman with educated parents. And I am actually pretty sure that for all stradas its easier for women to get an education today.
(1) The deflation of manliness. It's a social (and sometime prosecutable) crime for a man to be manly these days. I don't like it. I don't like being sensitive or caring, and I don't think I should be obligated to be.
(2) Laws that require equal rights in unnatural areas. For example, I don't like how in some places there are laws that require there to be a portion of female workers on a construction job. There are a few honestly capable female contractors out there, but women are pretty ineffective at manual labor in most cases. This goes for the military as well. I just don't get a good vibe about women in the military.
*but*
i am friends with a female college professor who gets payed less then her peers who are of the same qualifications (or so she says i havn't seen both to verify but i assume she is telling the truth haha)
her mere 70,000/yr probably
If women are so oppressed nowadays why do they make up almost 55% of our college population?
Because they make up 55% of the general population?