Phone encryption debate will reignite over attempted Trump assassination

Posted:
in iPhone

Former President Donald Trump would-be assassin's locked phone is in FBI custody. Stand by for the next attack on encryption, privacy, and security.

A person holding an iPhone in an ad. Text reads 'Privacy. That's iPhone.'
Privacy and security rely on encryption, a bane to investigators



The manufacturer of the shooter's phone is unknown. It could be Apple, Google, Samsung, or any of the multitude of other OEMs out there.

Given that the shooter is in the US, it's more than 50/50 that it's an iPhone.

However, one thing is certain -- encryption will be the problem. According to a report from The New York Times, the FBI obtained the shooter's phone and failed to gain access to it.

If any of this sounds familiar, it's because the FBI and its war on consumer encryption rears its head any time tragic events involve national security and smartphone security. While we can't predict the future, it seems almost certain that the FBI will utilize the tragedy and urgency of the situation to compel tech companies to do the impossible -- break encryption enough to help the good guys while thwarting the bad guys.

That is not how encryption works.

Either a device is fully encrypted, or it isn't. There isn't some magical in-between space that lets cops solve crimes while keeping bad guys from committing crimes. It's like asking for a gun that only kills criminals.

Despite the impossible nature of a good guy back door, the FBI has requested one again and again, particularly from Apple. Like with the San Bernardino shooting and Pensacola shooting.

Another pattern from those events is one that the FBI isn't keen on the public knowing. The FBI unlocked those devices without Apple's help by buying hacking mechanisms from foreign entities, likely Cellebrite's tools.

A Cellebrite hacking tool
Cellebrite has hacking tools for iPhones



If Apple is compelled to hand over data, it only has so much information available. Average users will have data stored in iCloud like Mail, text messages, or even iMessages depending on your settings.

If the user has Advanced Data Protection turned on, the data set is even more limited. The FBI would be able to get almost nothing from Apple.

So, we all must stand by and wait to see if the FBI cries encryption again in light of the attempted assassination and locked smartphone. Or see if they do the smart thing and work with the smartphone makers from the start or ultimately pay for a hacking tool without asking to ruin consumer encryption.

Given the former President's previous stance on encryption, legislation could pass under a future administration forcing Apple and others to compromise their devices for the sake of the good guys. The issue continues to be perilous, and while it isn't the most important thing on the ballot in the fall, realize that personal privacy and security could be decided by how you vote in the 2024 election.



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baconstang
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 26
    sbdudesbdude Posts: 287member
    Well, that was a whole lot of speculation.
    Cesar Battistini Mazieromaltzwilliamlondonjrfunk
  • Reply 2 of 26
    6ryph3n6ryph3n Posts: 58member
    This issue was the first strike against Trump in my book back in 2016. Aside from any other issues that’s an automatic dealbreaker for me.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 26
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,290member
    "Given that the shooter is in the US, it's more than 50/50 that it's an iPhone." In other words, 50/50 means you're either right or wrong. He was a kid, republican, conservative living in Butler, PA. Butler's median income is half the average income of PA so lower income. Almost entirely white, white minimal minority races. I'd say there's a much greater chance of the kid having an android phone. Yes, that's my speculation but just because the FBI couldn't immediately open the phone doesn't mean they can't open it. Anyone who knows anything about Cellebrite knows the FBI and most major police forces already has hacking devices no matter what they say. Plus, the FBI isn't going to tell us that they actually were able to open it and found anything because that's actually illegal since it's an ongoing investigation. 
    mknelsonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 26
    humbug1873humbug1873 Posts: 160member
    Encryption, Weapons different stuff same stupid story. You can't limit its use to the 'good' guys.
  • Reply 5 of 26
    Wesley HilliardWesley Hilliard Posts: 243member, administrator, moderator, editor
    *deleted conspiratorial nonsense*
    I cannot emphasize this enough right now. DO NOT post conspiratorial nonsense that hasn't been stated by any news organization. We will shut this thread down soooo fast.

    If I have to ask an individual more than once, they will face a ban.

    Keep discussions civil, about Apple and encryption. Thank you.
    baconstangmknelsondewmewilliamlondonwatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 6 of 26
    Wesley HilliardWesley Hilliard Posts: 243member, administrator, moderator, editor
    Starting now
    mknelsondewmewilliamlondonjony0
  • Reply 7 of 26

    Encryption, Weapons different stuff same stupid story. You can't limit its use to the 'good' guys.
    The "good guys" depends on what country you live in, and may be influenced by political, religious and other affiliations.  

    These hacking tools are heavily used by both sides in many countries.  Politicians are frequent targets, often by the opposition parties, military, militias...  In the US, there are fringe associated groups of both major parties that hack major players of opposition parties.  In the US, there are multiple fringe parties, from far right (neo-Nazi) to far left (Marxist).  
    edited July 15 watto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 26
    The FBI has already gained access to the alleged perpetrators phone.Given that, I doubt there will be much of a debate. 
    dewmetmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 26
    clexmanclexman Posts: 213member
    You should just go ahead and delete this opinion piece. The phone was accessed and no encryption debate happened.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/fbi-says-it-has-gained-access-trump-shooting-suspects-phone-2024-07-15/
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 26
    mac_dogmac_dog Posts: 1,083member
    Just get a warrant. Problem solved. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 26
    msuberlymsuberly Posts: 239member
    The FBI has in its possession the dead body of the shooter, including the severed head and his fingers.  Isn't that enough to unlock any iPhone with FaceID or TouchID enabled (or the Android equivalents)?
  • Reply 12 of 26
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,422member
    Not sure why the dialog about this matters now that the news media is reporting it has been accessed (i.e., "unlocked, with contents visible")...

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/15/trump-rally-shooting-suspect-phone-fbi

    How that was done is not clear, but obviously, the found a way.  Could be Msuberly was correct. Using the dead man's body to unlock it might work.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 26
    kmareikmarei Posts: 203member
    msuberly said:
    The FBI has in its possession the dead body of the shooter, including the severed head and his fingers.  Isn't that enough to unlock any iPhone with FaceID or TouchID enabled (or the Android equivalents)?
    I thought faceid only works if your eyes are open and you are looking at the camera ?.

    No idea  if that would work for a dead person 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 26
    You wouldn't be having this conversation again if the assailant didn't have a gun! America's problem is guns, not encryption. Unlike every other developed country in the world - Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Canada and the countries of Europe, to name a few, America finds it impossible to do universal public healthcare and gun control. Less guns = less gun crime and no guns = no gun crime (obvs, leaving aside for a moment the issue of any illegal arms trading; but that's why police and customs exist). Y'all can argue about things like knife crime but it's easier to shoot someone from hundreds of metres away rather than stab them (where you'd have to be up close and they could more easily take up the fight).

    Since 1996, when we had our last mass shooting event, Australia implemented a comprehensive programme of gun confiscation (yes, the government took our guns from us by force; but paid us for them because it was a compulsory acquisition of property) and gun control (practically nobody can get a gun licence, save for game hunters). Guess what! We've had no mass shootings and no political assassinations since then. The other side of the coin is that political assassinations aren't part of our political history or culture because our politicians don't turn up the temperature the way America's Republicans do; although the Libs (our conservatives) here try sometimes.

    Y'all can argue the toss and try on all the counterpoints you like, but the empirical evidence from Australia is that gun control works - so stop with the faux arguments about encryption and what you can learn about the shooter in hindsight (what he had on his phone doesn't matter now, because he carried out his attack - he was allowed to sneak onto a roof, within a couple hundred metres of the oompa loompa, with a rifle in hand).

    America needs gun control, not encryption hacks or backdoors.
    zimmermannmuthuk_vanalingamNYC362baconstangtmayronnwatto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 26
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,422member
    America needs gun control, not encryption hacks or backdoors.
    "Gun control" is not the same as "banning guns," which is perhaps what you were suggesting.  You see, based on reports I have seen, the gun was legally purchased by the shooter's father.  Therefore, "waiting periods" and similar "gun CONTROL" measures would not have prevented the recent assassinated attempt.  The kid used his dad's gun.  And yet, to ban guns and reclaim them would require a repeal of the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution.  Americans have long been in staunch opposition to that, which is why people only talk about gun "control."  But again, that only goes so far, and doesn't do much to control "illegal" guns readily available on the "street."

    But getting back on topic...

    As I said in my earlier post, the phone seems to have been hacked or otherwise accessed by the FBI.  I've not read about the FBI complaining about Apple and the lack of back doors, so I guess they either found a backdoor or used the dead body to access the phone.  In any case, I don't see this as a renewed call for Apple to create back doors.  As long as the FBI finds its own way in, they seem to be content with that.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 26
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,290member
    kmarei said:
    msuberly said:
    The FBI has in its possession the dead body of the shooter, including the severed head and his fingers.  Isn't that enough to unlock any iPhone with FaceID or TouchID enabled (or the Android equivalents)?
    I thought faceid only works if your eyes are open and you are looking at the camera ?.

    No idea  if that would work for a dead person 
    It doesn't. Same with TouchID not working on a dead person.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 26
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,290member

    clexman said:
    You should just go ahead and delete this opinion piece. The phone was accessed and no encryption debate happened.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/fbi-says-it-has-gained-access-trump-shooting-suspects-phone-2024-07-15/
    jdw said:
    Not sure why the dialog about this matters now that the news media is reporting it has been accessed (i.e., "unlocked, with contents visible")...

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/15/trump-rally-shooting-suspect-phone-fbi

    How that was done is not clear, but obviously, the found a way.  Could be Msuberly was correct. Using the dead man's body to unlock it might work.
    Neither one mentions the brand of the phone, which is the main issue brought up in this article. The Guardian's article says an iPhone (not in this case) was hacked in Australia by Azimuth Security. It wouldn't surprise me if they simply have the Cellebrite system of a hacked version of it. I do believe the FBI has purchased the Cellebrite system, which I believe is a criminal act on the part of our government. If they did purchase this system, I would like to see the procurement paperwork because Israel is still on at least the DOE sensitive country list requiring special procurement processes. For those of you who don't know this, Israel is one of the major countries who constantly hack USA systems. Look it up. I still believe the shooter's phone was not one from Apple, especially since they already got into it. Of course, an iPhone using just a 4 digit PIN isn't that difficult to break into.
    muthuk_vanalingamronnwatto_cobra
  • Reply 18 of 26
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 1,306member
    You wouldn't be having this conversation again if the assailant didn't have a gun! America's problem is guns, not encryption. Unlike every other developed country in the world - Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Canada and the countries of Europe, to name a few, America finds it impossible to do universal public healthcare and gun control. Less guns = less gun crime and no guns = no gun crime (obvs, leaving aside for a moment the issue of any illegal arms trading; but that's why police and customs exist). Y'all can argue about things like knife crime but it's easier to shoot someone from hundreds of metres away rather than stab them (where you'd have to be up close and they could more easily take up the fight).

    Since 1996, when we had our last mass shooting event, Australia implemented a comprehensive programme of gun confiscation (yes, the government took our guns from us by force; but paid us for them because it was a compulsory acquisition of property) and gun control (practically nobody can get a gun licence, save for game hunters). Guess what! We've had no mass shootings and no political assassinations since then. The other side of the coin is that political assassinations aren't part of our political history or culture because our politicians don't turn up the temperature the way America's Republicans do; although the Libs (our conservatives) here try sometimes.

    Y'all can argue the toss and try on all the counterpoints you like, but the empirical evidence from Australia is that gun control works - so stop with the faux arguments about encryption and what you can learn about the shooter in hindsight (what he had on his phone doesn't matter now, because he carried out his attack - he was allowed to sneak onto a roof, within a couple hundred metres of the oompa loompa, with a rifle in hand).

    America needs gun control, not encryption hacks or backdoors.
    Australia has had mass shootings in 2002 (2), 2005 (2), 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014 (2), 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 (2), and 2022 (2).
    edited July 16
  • Reply 19 of 26
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,608member
    Early claims are that the shooters phone was an iPhone. Apple is likely breathing a quiet sigh of relief that the FBI was able to access it, avoiding another unpleasant discussion of encryption, crime, and the merits of national interest.

    BTW guys, if you in insist on going off-topic, for example, gun-control, this thread will end up closed and those comments deleted. Seems silly to shut down an otherwise pertinent discussion by ignoring staff warnings. 
    edited July 16 freeassociate2tmayronn
  • Reply 20 of 26
    Thank you, Wes. I know this is a complex and difficult subject area, particularly right now. And yet very timely. More than ever, autocrats and bad actors the world over would like more access to all our digital devices and stored personal information. While I’m all for helping ‘the good guys’, this isn’t some comic book universe where the virtuous never screw up or cross a line in pursuit of what they see as the right thing to do. As always, law enforcement needs to step up and do the work to make their case, without leaning on “God’s Eye” surveillance to do the heavy lifting.

    We all have opinions on these matters. Some of us are deeply impacted by these issues, and have understandably strong emotions about them.

    But let’s all cut Wes some slack for trying to see down the road a bit. These are trying times, and we’re all concerned for the future, even if we look at it differently from one another. So again, be kind to Wes. We’re all just trying to do our best to navigate this world we live in.
    ronnwatto_cobra
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