Peace through Strength

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Just been reading how terrorism is down world-wide to its lowest levels since 1969......& that America's Hawkish response to terrorists..( going after them instead of trying to understand them ) has resulted in an overall boost to world security.....and not the reverse that so many leftwingers & bleeding heart liberals have maintained.

Just as you deal with school yard bullies by taking the fight to them, rogue nation states, terrorists & all ilks of oppressive regimes that threaten democracy should be taken on....democracy would be ringing it's own throat by trying to appease terrorism.....

From my perspective outside America, you will always find people hating you, but in the end, your power needs to be projected in a way that sends the most powerful message to all would be terrorists...be they nations or otherwise.



" Speak softly but carry a big stick"



Funny how bullies are more respectful after you bloodied their noses !

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 18
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by aquafire

    Just been reading how terrorism is down world-wide to its lowest levels since 1969......& that America's Hawkish response to terrorists..( going after them instead of trying to understand them ) has resulted in an overall boost to world security.....



    It's way too soon to declare this approach a success, at least in the long term. You could make the analogy that the Hawks' strategy has a kind of rubber band effect and that later on, a very big backlash is coming. While I think an aggressive policy towards this is igenerally a good idea, the politics of the situation call for a little more skill and grace than our leaders have demonstrated (and this despite efforts of some in the US leadership). Even though it is petty politics and PR spin(which we're sure to lose anyway but that's another story), it's important. Sorry to sound like a watered-down Machiavelli, just attempting to add a little levity.
  • Reply 2 of 18
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    Think about this. The Taliban could still be around today. Had they not allowed al-Qaida to wage war on the US from their country. All of these major, and minor, terrorist groups are either funded via stable governments or are allowed to operate by their consent. This whole notion that poverty and ignorance breeds terrorism is total crap. Maybe these governments have started to get the message that terrorism can cost them big time.
  • Reply 3 of 18
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BuonRotto

    It's way too soon to declare this approach a success, at least in the long term. You could make the analogy that the Hawks' strategy has a kind of rubber band effect and that later on, a very big backlash is coming. While I think an aggressive policy towards this is igenerally a good idea, the politics of the situation call for a little more skill and grace than our leaders have demonstrated (and this despite efforts of some in the US leadership). Even though it is petty politics and PR spin(which we're sure to lose anyway but that's another story), it's important. Sorry to sound like a watered-down Machiavelli, just attempting to add a little levity.



    Well when you have countries like France, Germany and Russia supporting someone like Saddam AND the EU funding terrorism due to their ineptness and unwillingness to look the diplomacy is never going to look good. The UN "refugee camps" are in fact bases and launching points for terrorist.



    Blame the bad diplomacy where it it due.
  • Reply 4 of 18
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Why can't people around here just be honest?



    It's estimated that in 2001 3300 people died from terrorism. Obviously that number was significantly bumped by the attacks on 9/11. If we take an average while dropping the extreme high and low numbers from the last few years, then we'll see that terrorism is up.



    Am I going to cry that the conservative view is increasing world terrosism? No, because the effect in either direction is going to take years to sort out.



    You don't even take into consideration that it's the Bush administration deciding what's a terrorist act and what's not. They're releasing the numbers. How do you expect them to portray themselves?



    Brains around here must be at an all time low.
  • Reply 5 of 18
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Just an addition, consider the two wars we've had, to say 'peace through strength' is complete bullshit. We've had no peace.
  • Reply 6 of 18
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    Blame the bad diplomacy where it it due.



    I don't disagree with you in many cases. I do think the "political" problems of this position are genrated by both sides. The US government for being a bit tactless, all others for being reactionary and opportunistic. I have a very cynical attitude towards the whole diplomacy thing, don't get me wrong. At some point, you have to say, screw it, we should be doing what's best for us/everyone, what's worst for terrorists and those who support them, and screw the those who seek to hurt this process because of who is leading it.



    A far as the "peace through strength" argument, we haven't seen much peace obviously yet. A part of me says that'll never happen, and history is on my side for saying that. It's a question of minimalizing organized violence or the scope of violent actions. Of course, it's also a matter of minimalizing hatred that motivates violence in the long term anyway, and that's a much more slippery issue.



    I'm with Scott that education and affluence have jack to do with solving the problem at least in any clear derivative or procedural way. More important than the imbalance between the haves and have-nots in the middle east is the skewed balance of power among all the people in those nations. Money is power. I fear that democracy is truly a difficult thing for many of these people in the middle east to comprehend yet because they don't understand that no one gets everything they want, and that's why it works. Everyone wants what they want and only what they want, and that's when things fall apart and what so many are disenfranchised because others have everything in their power while others have no power.



    I'm not explaining myself very well.
  • Reply 7 of 18
    aquafireaquafire Posts: 2,758member
    Good onya Scott,

    Lefties are forever ringing there hands over blood being spilt in the name of democracy...but funny how their political position never fits squarely with the facts..Ie overall terrorism is Up ..Oh Puh---Leese.....how do you make that case?

    like 1+1 = 3 good maths huh...& they reckon we ain't got brains....ha ha ha
  • Reply 8 of 18
    thttht Posts: 3,209member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by aquafire

    in the end, your power needs to be projected in a way that sends the most powerful message to all would be terrorists...be they nations or otherwise.



    America's response to international terrorism now is the same as it was in the past: the severity of response is based on the severity of the terrorist act.
  • Reply 9 of 18
    thttht Posts: 3,209member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by aquafire

    Just been reading how terrorism is down world-wide to its lowest levels since 1969.



    Skimmed, if one can even call it that, the literature, and the report says:



    Overview of State-Sponsored Terrorism



    Despite significant pressure from the US Government, the seven designated state sponsors of terrorism?Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Syria, and Sudan?did not take all the necessary actions to disassociate themselves fully from their ties to terrorism in 2002. While some of these countries have taken steps to cooperate in the global war on terrorism, most have also continued the very actions that led them to be declared state sponsors.




    And the statistical review indicates that the drop in terrorist incidents were solely due to a 156 incident drop in Latin America:







    Not only this, the trend in terrorism incidents dropped throughout the 1990s according to this chart:







    Perhaps the rise around the year 2000 is from the Palestinian intifada. Also, the casualty charts seem to correlate with al Queda incidents:







    So, once al Queda's organization is destroyed, the decline in terrorism can continue per the 1990s trend.
  • Reply 10 of 18
    hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    Firstly, let's wait six months at the very least.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    Well when you have countries like France, Germany and Russia supporting someone like Saddam AND the EU funding terrorism due to their ineptness and unwillingness to look the diplomacy is never going to look good. The UN "refugee camps" are in fact bases and launching points for terrorist.



    Blame the bad diplomacy where it it due.




    Secondly, Scott. Everything you say in this post is inflammatory bullshit, and I'm inflamed so well done.



    Apparently when America funds terrorism and trains right-wing terrorists that's OK, it's not terrorism at all. It's only proper support for terrorism when the EU sends aid to people displaced and oppressed by Israel, of course, because that's because you're Jewish and really very right wing, are you not?



    Your problem isn't terror at all. If it were, you'd at least acknowledge that Israeli policy in the occupied territories might just contribute to the horrible mess there. I'd argue it was directly responsible, but that's me. As far as you're concerned it's completely black and white: it's the frigging Arabs, and they can afford to do it because the frigging Frogs give them the money. As long as people think like you we're NEVER GOING TO FIND A SOLUTION, and right now it looks like the Knesset's full of hateful Mika-likes like you.



    The UN refugee camps are not "launching points for terrorist" [sic] at all. They are, of course, good places to recruit terrorists because the people who live in them are angry, poor, and hopeless and they'll carry on being good places to recruit suicide bombers until Israel is brave enough to face its responsibility and moral enough to do something about it.



    In the meantime, go to Europe. Eat some croissants. Go to a gallery. Get into a fight with a junkie in Madrid. Europe's great, you obviously haven't got a clue about it, and I think you might like it.
  • Reply 11 of 18
    aquafireaquafire Posts: 2,758member
    Apparently when America funds terrorism and trains right-wing terrorists... that's OK, it's not terrorism at all."



    Hassan if I may jump in here..( it is my post )..I mostly think of you as a worldly & balanced human being..... so I hope you read my points in that light.



    First point...



    I went to your link & couldn't find any link to " Right Wing Terrorism". However, I did note that federal policy now requires all participants to undergo mandatory Training in Human rights. The lions-share of the page was dedicated to the ongoing indiction of drugs coming from Sth America...is that the " Proof " of your right wing terrorism ?



    Second Point.....



    " The UN refugee camps are not "launching points for terrorist" [sic] at all. They are, of course, good places to recruit terrorists ...... (Please you are splitting semantic hairs.....At what point does someone become a Terrorist?.... When they have a gun or when they they are training.... or earlier, when they are thinking about it?).....because the people who live in them are angry, poor, and hopeless and they'll carry on being good places to recruit suicide bombers until Israel is brave enough to face its responsibility and moral enough to do something about it."



    Hassan,

    Can you honestly tell me with the billions of dollars in aid that have been poured into the West bank & Gaza, that all these "angry, poor and hopeless" Palestinians are all down to "Israel's cruel oppression" & not to an endemic P.L.O system that has for years, allowed upper echelon graft & corruption to flourish: a veritable font of systemic opportunism that has been used to keep desperate Palestinian people impoverished in order to sustain its own political control & economic clout: a sort of system quo if you will ? This is a central accusation raised by Hamas.



    Third point,

    With Abu Mazen now being chosen as the democratically elected Prime Minister of the Palestinian Cabinet..are you in support of his wishing to stop all attacks on Israel..or do you support populist ( non-elected ) Islamic political / military groups in defiance of his call..?

    From my perspective, you have two choices, either you accept the central authority of Prime Minister Mazen & his cabinet or you must work outside of his call to peace....in which case you will see Palestinians in support of Mazen fighting Palestinians in support of Hamas & other groups outside of his democratically elected cabinet....you can't have it both ways.....because that will lead to civil war & I will leave it to you to guess who will benefit.
  • Reply 12 of 18
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by THT



    So, once al Queda's organization is destroyed, the decline in terrorism can continue per the 1990s trend.




    So this thread is bullshit. Good.
  • Reply 13 of 18
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah

    Firstly, let's wait six months at the very least.



    Yes, at least, if not a few years so there's a more substantial trend to measure.





    Quote:

    Apparently when America funds terrorism and trains right-wing terrorists that's OK, it's not terrorism at all. It's only proper support for terrorism when the EU sends aid to people displaced and oppressed by Israel, of course, because that's because you're Jewish and really very right wing, are you not?



    Scott's Jewish? Anyway, at least some of us find these old "skeletons" in the US's closet just a slight embarrassment. Sandinistas, etc. and all that not good.



    As far as the UN supporting terrorism in some way because of the refugeee camps, I obviously don't buy that the UN folk are beinhd any of it, but everyone obviously admits that they are good places to look for willing terrorists. Anyway, we can blame Israel to its fair share of this problem but can we not also blame Jordan for shunning their former citizens in their time of need? Oh, I guess they (and others of course) do supply bombs, guns and stipends for the families of suicide bombers. I think we're all to blame for the refugee camp mess. We're all using them as a tool though when they really need help. And don't give me the "Israel started it" crap, we're not children arguing in the back seat. Time to take these things as they are and deal with them and stop lamenting the past, making excuses and letting theproblem languish because no one wants to take some responsibility.



    Quote:

    The UN refugee camps are not "launching points for terrorist" [sic] at all. They are, of course, good places to recruit terrorists...



    Seems like 6 of one, half a dozen of another.
  • Reply 14 of 18
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
  • Reply 15 of 18
    thttht Posts: 3,209member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    So this thread is bullshit. Good.



    Well, yeah. Most politics are. It is interesting to note that Latin America has the highest incidences of terrorism, and its mindshare in the media is virtually zero!
  • Reply 16 of 18
    kneelbeforezodkneelbeforezod Posts: 1,120member
    There were less terrorist attacks in 2002 then in 2000, but more deaths from terrorism. Less attacks is good...but more people killed and wounded? Not so good...if you went by number of attacks alone, 2001 would look like a better year than 2000.



    2000
    Quote:

    423 international terrorist attacks in 2000.... 405 persons were killed and 791 were wounded



    2001
    Quote:

    The number of international terrorist attacks in 2001 declined to 346...A total of 3,547 persons were killed...The number of persons wounded in terrorist attacks in 2001 was 1,080 (note: the 2002 report updates the number of dead and wounded to 3,295 and 2,283)



    2002
    Quote:

    International terrorists conducted 199 attacks in 2002...A total of 725 persons were killed....A total of 2,013 persons were wounded



  • Reply 17 of 18
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    It's so funny that Hassan thinks I'm a Jew.
  • Reply 18 of 18
    aquafireaquafire Posts: 2,758member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    It's so funny that Hassan thinks I'm a Jew.



    And here I was thinking of you being more like this.

    :lo
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