What do you think she would have gotten if she were a he?
Nick
Would "he" have kidnapped a boy as well? a girl? There is a common assumption that a 15 year old boy can stand up for themselves, whereas a 15 year old girl may not be able to do so... We need more info anyway to make the judgement call. Was it concentual? I mean did she need to take the kid at gun point? Local sentancing in such "reverse" cases has been about 5-13 years (but the most recent one was between a 60 year old cop and a 13 year old girl...)...
As I read the story the teacher and the boy somehow fell in love with eachother and went away to Las Vegas to have a good time. On that supposition:
Its VERY stoopid for a 34 year old to run away with her 15 year old loverboy to Vegas but isn´t a crime. Her crime is to have sex with her student. Thats something you can´t do unless your a teacher at high school or college.
If I am right she should be fire and thats that. And the parents should be given a reprimande. If they want their son not to enjoy the forbidden fruit before marriage perhaps its their responsibility to raise him not to.
Oh forgot. The age of concent is somewhere between 17 and 21 in US and not 15 as in other normal countries.
What that I hear? "forgive Anders for his liberal sins because he doesn´t know better". Thanks. I love to be part of someones prayers before sleep. At least they care for me then
Well I believe at some level it was consentual but what the real question would become is to what degree can a 15 year old give consent?
If I got a 15 year old boy to consent to some nude photos, etc it would still be a crime.
Anders, in some ways your reasoning is just a little bit odd to me. Perhaps the parents did raise him a certain way but if another adult undermines that by taking the child away from the parents without their consent what are they to do then?
Billbobsky, why would it be assumed that a 15 year old boy could handle themselves? Even if it were based off of physical stature, there are large differences in development. I was fully grown at 15 years old, but there are boys who are still growing with the are 19 years old.
Eitherway both boys and girls at this age are minors and deserve equal protection.
Well I believe at some level it was consentual but what the real question would become is to what degree can a 15 year old give consent?
If I got a 15 year old boy to consent to some nude photos, etc it would still be a crime.
Anders, in some ways your reasoning is just a little bit odd to me. Perhaps the parents did raise him a certain way but if another adult undermines that by taking the child away from the parents without their consent what are they to do then?
If the boy is 15 its his concent that matters not the parents IMB. But then again I grew up in a country where 15 years was the turning point with alcohol, sex and crime so thats how I see things like this. If he is over 15 and not a retard its his concent not the parents that counts.
I don't think it hyperactive to believe that if a male teacher heavily suggested she go/kidnapped his 15 year old female student, drove her to another state and had multiple sexual encounters with her, and then returned her several days later, he would only get two years.
I kinda wish one of the ninth grade English teachers at my high schoo (she very definitely WAS hot) had kidnapped me at 15 and made a man of me. Not that any 15 year old is ever going to "become a man" at that age. Has nothing to do with physical stature but rather mental stature.
And Trumpt, if a 30-something year old male teacher took one of his 15 year old students (male or female) to another state to get funky and returned a few days later, it would be a *life* sentence (note this is different than "life in prison") for any prosecutor worth a crap. There is vry definitely a double-standard here, as there should be. Not all double-standards are nonsensical, despite what the politically correct types in this country think.
There is vry definitely a double-standard here, as there should be. Not all double-standards are nonsensical, despite what the politically correct types in this country think.
Context is everything.
Unless the kid was tied to a chair and force-fed Viagra; or there was some some *ahem* extra ?equipment? evolved, it?s not exactly rape. In fact it?s every greasy hunched over teenaged boy?s dream.
I mean, assuming that it was only the woman doing this (not say her, and some guy she dates), and assuming she didn't drug him or use any kinkoid stuff on him...yah... it probablywas like a fantasy for him.
But you can argue that a 15 year old girl who "falls in love" with her male teacher is also living her fantasy if it happens, but socially we feel like the young woman has been taken advantage of. Whereas the young man is just a "lucky sumbitch" to most observers.
I understand there is a societal double standard. That is why I thought it strange that Bunge didn't recognize it and secondly that if you suggest there is one, you must hate all women. (Since when did criticism = hate)
However to those of you who suggest that the woman was just fulfulling the guys fantasy, why is the opposite not true?
We read/encounter dozens of stories everyday about men who can easily prey upon younger women. There are lots of 14-15 girls who seem to easily go after 25-26 year old men for what they can provide and what they give them.
We say that the boy couldn't have really been hurt because he would have desired sex. What sort of planet do you all live on where women don't enjoy and desire sex as well? If anything they can enjoy it MORE since they can seemingly go unendingly and have multiple...ehem... resolutions, to the act.
Why shouldn't a girl want sex as much as a boy? Birth control, RU486, and abortion without adult consent all mean that she would never have to carry the consequences of said actions with her.
Why punish the male so excessively who would do what this female teacher did and got two years? Do females not like going to Vegas all expenses paid?
I didn't say it made logical sense necessarily, just that the double standard in this case is not simply nonsense the way most double-standards are. The classic example being the similarly educated man and woman who do the exact same job with the exact same proficiency, but the woman gets paid less because she lacks a penile unit. That type of nonsensical "acid test" does not fit well with the double standard of "it's not as bad if a woman has sex with a 15 year old boy, as when a man has sex with a 15 year old girl".
In the typical case, the 15 year old boy is physically able to handle himself better in the sense of ... if he was truly feeling he didn't want to, the average sized woman couldn't physically force him to do it without some sort of outside help (drugs, another man, etc).
I don't truly think anyone with any significant amount of life experience could - in a million friggin years - make the argument that a 15 year old boy is more emotionally capable of taking care of themselves (in any sense), than is a 15 year old girl. Just the opposite in my experience. I think until they reach the age of about 17, young women are typically more emotionally mature than their same-age male counterparts.
That is, I think a 16 year old boy is roughly equivalent (emotionally) to a 14 year old girl, and so on, as you get younger and younger. The theory goes that young boys tend to mature physically first, emotionally second, and young girls the other way arround -- generally. There will of course be several exceptions to this rule in any middle or high school classroom, but the majority will tend to bear it out I think.
Anyway, getting back to this case, the 15 year old boy's advantage is his physical stature. Unless she was a very strong woman I don't think he could be held to do something against his will. He obviously liked the woman in this case so it's not like he was tricked into getting into her car or something. He went willingly. I think a 15 year old girl's advantage is that she's more capable of making an intelligent decision about sex - namely that she's not ready to have it - but at the same time is less capable of fending off unwanted advances if bad things start to happen. Self-defense techniques not withstanding of course.
Make sense? Sorta?
I guess what it boils down to is, no 15 year old is as emotionally prepared for sex as they think they are. We all thought we had it all figured out at that age, but later came to find we basically knew nothing of sex and love and all the rest. But given the scenario of a 15 year old male making the poor decision of getting into a sexual situation with an adult woman, and the scenario of a 15 year old girl doing the same with an adult man ... the 15 year old male has a *much* better shot at getting out of the situation unscathed, should they want to.
Then there is the *other* double-standard no one is mentioning. A 15 year old girl who loses her virginity has been "deflowered". She's lost some of her beauty in society's eyes. No longer will that white dress on her wedding mean anything. A 15 year old boy who loses his virginity was merely "sewing wild oats" or "having his first lay" or whatever. THAT double-standard is truly nonsensical. I think it's equally sad to have a boy or girl of that age lose their virginity. Not to say they lose any of what makes them a "beautiful and unique snowflake" (thank you Tyler), it's just sad is all. But that's just me.
[{{{EDITED LIKE, ONE ZILLION TIMES BECAUSE I CAN'T FIT ALL MY SCATTERED THOUGHTS INTO ONE POSTING SESSION. ARGH. }}}
I understand there is a societal double standard. That is why I thought it strange that Bunge didn't recognize it and secondly that if you suggest there is one, you must hate all women. (Since when did criticism = hate)
How didn't I recognize the double standard? Does it show in this case? Probably not. It's a plea bargain. Of course it's a reduced sentence. No one pleas for a greater sentence.
And it's not the criticism in this thread I was commenting on, it's the multiple threads you've started that got me thinking it was weird.
How didn't I recognize the double standard? Does it show in this case? Probably not. It's a plea bargain. Of course it's a reduced sentence. No one pleas for a greater sentence.
And it's not the criticism in this thread I was commenting on, it's the multiple threads you've started that got me thinking it was weird.
I think there have been a total of three threads in which I have posted about gender relations. None of them bring up hating women. They were mostly about different takes on things within society. The other thread had to do with women as sole income earners for a family and/or men assuming women's jobs. There was one generalize men are not the oppressor thread.
I doubt many men around here go around trying to oppress women, quite the opposite. The threads do deal with different matters and do deal with contemporary news and articles from various periodicals.
So I really don't get your point. If I find it interesting, I link to it and post to it, likewise the reverse.
Nick
P.S. If anything you should be happy because these threads have nothing to do with ...evolution, the Democratic or Republican party, or the war in Iraq.
Comments
Originally posted by trumptman
Teacher sentenced
What do you think she would have gotten if she were a he?
Nick
Would "he" have kidnapped a boy as well? a girl? There is a common assumption that a 15 year old boy can stand up for themselves, whereas a 15 year old girl may not be able to do so... We need more info anyway to make the judgement call. Was it concentual? I mean did she need to take the kid at gun point? Local sentancing in such "reverse" cases has been about 5-13 years (but the most recent one was between a 60 year old cop and a 13 year old girl...)...
Its VERY stoopid for a 34 year old to run away with her 15 year old loverboy to Vegas but isn´t a crime. Her crime is to have sex with her student. Thats something you can´t do unless your a teacher at high school or college.
If I am right she should be fire and thats that. And the parents should be given a reprimande. If they want their son not to enjoy the forbidden fruit before marriage perhaps its their responsibility to raise him not to.
Oh forgot. The age of concent is somewhere between 17 and 21 in US and not 15 as in other normal countries.
What that I hear? "forgive Anders for his liberal sins because he doesn´t know better". Thanks. I love to be part of someones prayers before sleep. At least they care for me then
If I got a 15 year old boy to consent to some nude photos, etc it would still be a crime.
Anders, in some ways your reasoning is just a little bit odd to me. Perhaps the parents did raise him a certain way but if another adult undermines that by taking the child away from the parents without their consent what are they to do then?
Billbobsky, why would it be assumed that a 15 year old boy could handle themselves? Even if it were based off of physical stature, there are large differences in development. I was fully grown at 15 years old, but there are boys who are still growing with the are 19 years old.
Eitherway both boys and girls at this age are minors and deserve equal protection.
Nick
I think everybody but 12 jury members agree that that sentence was very wrong.
Originally posted by trumptman
What do you think she would have gotten if she were a he?
Considering it was a plea deal I imagine 'he' would have gotten the same bargain. Your hyperactive misogyny is a bit weird.
Originally posted by BRussell
More prison time? That woman should get a medal for fulfilling my teenage fantasies.
Oh BRussell, your societally indoctrinated need to act oversexed is just a facade to hide your true feelings.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Well I believe at some level it was consentual but what the real question would become is to what degree can a 15 year old give consent?
If I got a 15 year old boy to consent to some nude photos, etc it would still be a crime.
Anders, in some ways your reasoning is just a little bit odd to me. Perhaps the parents did raise him a certain way but if another adult undermines that by taking the child away from the parents without their consent what are they to do then?
If the boy is 15 its his concent that matters not the parents IMB. But then again I grew up in a country where 15 years was the turning point with alcohol, sex and crime so thats how I see things like this. If he is over 15 and not a retard its his concent not the parents that counts.
Originally posted by bunge
Considering it was a plea deal I imagine 'he' would have gotten the same bargain. Your hyperactive misogyny is a bit weird.
Yep I just imagine things like discrimination with regard to sentencing differences.
sentencing
I don't think it hyperactive to believe that if a male teacher heavily suggested she go/kidnapped his 15 year old female student, drove her to another state and had multiple sexual encounters with her, and then returned her several days later, he would only get two years.
Nick
I kinda wish one of the ninth grade English teachers at my high schoo (she very definitely WAS hot) had kidnapped me at 15 and made a man of me. Not that any 15 year old is ever going to "become a man" at that age. Has nothing to do with physical stature but rather mental stature.
And Trumpt, if a 30-something year old male teacher took one of his 15 year old students (male or female) to another state to get funky and returned a few days later, it would be a *life* sentence (note this is different than "life in prison") for any prosecutor worth a crap. There is vry definitely a double-standard here, as there should be. Not all double-standards are nonsensical, despite what the politically correct types in this country think.
Context is everything.
doesn't happen the other way around. then they just think "what if it had been my little girl."
sorry, huge double standard here that's not going to change any time soon. (mainly because it's a common fantasy among young boys)
And he deserved it.
Originally posted by Moogs
I'm with BRussell...I mean common, was she hot??
I was thinking the same thing.
Originally posted by Moogs
There is vry definitely a double-standard here, as there should be. Not all double-standards are nonsensical, despite what the politically correct types in this country think.
Context is everything.
Unless the kid was tied to a chair and force-fed Viagra; or there was some some *ahem* extra ?equipment? evolved, it?s not exactly rape. In fact it?s every greasy hunched over teenaged boy?s dream.
Don?t ya think?
I mean, assuming that it was only the woman doing this (not say her, and some guy she dates), and assuming she didn't drug him or use any kinkoid stuff on him...yah... it probablywas like a fantasy for him.
But you can argue that a 15 year old girl who "falls in love" with her male teacher is also living her fantasy if it happens, but socially we feel like the young woman has been taken advantage of. Whereas the young man is just a "lucky sumbitch" to most observers.
However to those of you who suggest that the woman was just fulfulling the guys fantasy, why is the opposite not true?
We read/encounter dozens of stories everyday about men who can easily prey upon younger women. There are lots of 14-15 girls who seem to easily go after 25-26 year old men for what they can provide and what they give them.
We say that the boy couldn't have really been hurt because he would have desired sex. What sort of planet do you all live on where women don't enjoy and desire sex as well? If anything they can enjoy it MORE since they can seemingly go unendingly and have multiple...ehem... resolutions, to the act.
Why shouldn't a girl want sex as much as a boy? Birth control, RU486, and abortion without adult consent all mean that she would never have to carry the consequences of said actions with her.
Why punish the male so excessively who would do what this female teacher did and got two years? Do females not like going to Vegas all expenses paid?
Nick
In the typical case, the 15 year old boy is physically able to handle himself better in the sense of ... if he was truly feeling he didn't want to, the average sized woman couldn't physically force him to do it without some sort of outside help (drugs, another man, etc).
I don't truly think anyone with any significant amount of life experience could - in a million friggin years - make the argument that a 15 year old boy is more emotionally capable of taking care of themselves (in any sense), than is a 15 year old girl. Just the opposite in my experience. I think until they reach the age of about 17, young women are typically more emotionally mature than their same-age male counterparts.
That is, I think a 16 year old boy is roughly equivalent (emotionally) to a 14 year old girl, and so on, as you get younger and younger. The theory goes that young boys tend to mature physically first, emotionally second, and young girls the other way arround -- generally. There will of course be several exceptions to this rule in any middle or high school classroom, but the majority will tend to bear it out I think.
Anyway, getting back to this case, the 15 year old boy's advantage is his physical stature. Unless she was a very strong woman I don't think he could be held to do something against his will. He obviously liked the woman in this case so it's not like he was tricked into getting into her car or something. He went willingly. I think a 15 year old girl's advantage is that she's more capable of making an intelligent decision about sex - namely that she's not ready to have it - but at the same time is less capable of fending off unwanted advances if bad things start to happen. Self-defense techniques not withstanding of course.
Make sense? Sorta?
I guess what it boils down to is, no 15 year old is as emotionally prepared for sex as they think they are. We all thought we had it all figured out at that age, but later came to find we basically knew nothing of sex and love and all the rest. But given the scenario of a 15 year old male making the poor decision of getting into a sexual situation with an adult woman, and the scenario of a 15 year old girl doing the same with an adult man ... the 15 year old male has a *much* better shot at getting out of the situation unscathed, should they want to.
Then there is the *other* double-standard no one is mentioning. A 15 year old girl who loses her virginity has been "deflowered". She's lost some of her beauty in society's eyes. No longer will that white dress on her wedding mean anything. A 15 year old boy who loses his virginity was merely "sewing wild oats" or "having his first lay" or whatever. THAT double-standard is truly nonsensical. I think it's equally sad to have a boy or girl of that age lose their virginity. Not to say they lose any of what makes them a "beautiful and unique snowflake" (thank you Tyler), it's just sad is all. But that's just me.
[{{{EDITED LIKE, ONE ZILLION TIMES BECAUSE I CAN'T FIT ALL MY SCATTERED THOUGHTS INTO ONE POSTING SESSION. ARGH. }}}
Originally posted by trumptman
I understand there is a societal double standard. That is why I thought it strange that Bunge didn't recognize it and secondly that if you suggest there is one, you must hate all women. (Since when did criticism = hate)
How didn't I recognize the double standard? Does it show in this case? Probably not. It's a plea bargain. Of course it's a reduced sentence. No one pleas for a greater sentence.
And it's not the criticism in this thread I was commenting on, it's the multiple threads you've started that got me thinking it was weird.
Originally posted by bunge
How didn't I recognize the double standard? Does it show in this case? Probably not. It's a plea bargain. Of course it's a reduced sentence. No one pleas for a greater sentence.
And it's not the criticism in this thread I was commenting on, it's the multiple threads you've started that got me thinking it was weird.
I think there have been a total of three threads in which I have posted about gender relations. None of them bring up hating women. They were mostly about different takes on things within society. The other thread had to do with women as sole income earners for a family and/or men assuming women's jobs. There was one generalize men are not the oppressor thread.
I doubt many men around here go around trying to oppress women, quite the opposite. The threads do deal with different matters and do deal with contemporary news and articles from various periodicals.
So I really don't get your point. If I find it interesting, I link to it and post to it, likewise the reverse.
Nick
P.S. If anything you should be happy because these threads have nothing to do with ...evolution, the Democratic or Republican party, or the war in Iraq.