New Dark Ages coming soon ?
Are the West & Islam heading for the ultimate battle of survival.?
I know that Bush & many in the west don't want to portray the struggle against terrorism as a fight against Islam.
But the fact remains, that many fundamentalists not only portray this war as a war between Islam & non believers ( the west ) , but alternately paint it as a war against Christians, Jews & any other groups that would stand in the way of a Pan Islamic world.
Indonesia, is about to launch into another war in Aceh where fundamentalist muslims want to secede form Indonesia.
Al-Quaeda is launching terrorist attacks against fellow muslim countries in the hope of destabalising their elected governments.
Palestinian terrorist groups continue to bomb civilians even while peace talks are in progress....
Everywhere I see Fundamentalist Islam on the rise...& I fear that what is at stake is our very plural-democratic way of life.
Are we being railroaded into a clash of civilisations, another re-run of the Crusades or even worse...the Dark Ages...?
I know that Bush & many in the west don't want to portray the struggle against terrorism as a fight against Islam.
But the fact remains, that many fundamentalists not only portray this war as a war between Islam & non believers ( the west ) , but alternately paint it as a war against Christians, Jews & any other groups that would stand in the way of a Pan Islamic world.
Indonesia, is about to launch into another war in Aceh where fundamentalist muslims want to secede form Indonesia.
Al-Quaeda is launching terrorist attacks against fellow muslim countries in the hope of destabalising their elected governments.
Palestinian terrorist groups continue to bomb civilians even while peace talks are in progress....
Everywhere I see Fundamentalist Islam on the rise...& I fear that what is at stake is our very plural-democratic way of life.
Are we being railroaded into a clash of civilisations, another re-run of the Crusades or even worse...the Dark Ages...?
Comments
even if they could get hold of a nuclear device, and detonate it in a free country, while the damage would be severe we wouldn't have to respond with an all out nuclear rebuttal. the chance of them gathering enough nuclear weapons to really fight the unholy power of the united states is unlikely to me. if they fire one, and its successful, we can counter with one of our own, and end that fight. with russia we couldn't because any attack they made would lead to an all out defense (and complete nuclear annihilation of the planet). with the fewer weapons of the fundamentalists, we dont have to fear complete destruction, because they aren't up to speed in the nuclear arms race. we probably even have (or in wartime produce) enough non-nuclear weapons to desimate them should that need arise.
also, i think that it won't come to that. that we'll learn to peacefully coexist.
Originally posted by bunge
I'd say judging by the poverty across the globe we're living in another dark ages and that a period of enlightment is coming next. Perhaps it will take hitting rock bottom before it arrives, but hopefully it will.
Funny I'm seeing this time as the descent from the Enlightenment/neo-classical era. However, I think the poverty argument at face value is a bit ignorant of what it was really like in the past. Perhaps a better way to say what you mean is that the gap between rich and poor is so great now, though you might be able to argue same-old-same-old in that respect too. We're coming towards the a mark in the history of Islam, and much like the millennial birthdate of Christianity (crusades, etc.), I think its fundamentalism and intolerance will come to a head soon, then the cycle will start again.
Islam is built in such a way that it basically can't have a reformation---or adapt to the changing needs of the future---therefore it will be moved to the sidelines in the future.
Power is power, and whether pluralistic or Christian, nations don't share power. Islam is at war with a world that is moving forward into a better existence. Islam is stuck in the 7th century. It doesn't have any other options.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
...the gap between rich and poor....
That's a better way to put it. Relative poverty, because even poor people these days have it better than they did in the Dark Ages.
I've felt for a while that Islam might be in the midst of overtaking Christianity globally, but I've just never equated that with 'Dark Ages'. They already have the population numbers, but they have no where near the economic clout Christianity does.
There are more than enough 'average' Muslims to keep Islam from slipping into a Taliban-esqe wave across the globe. I think at this point Islamic countries are going to have to Westernize to gain more political clout and the more they Westernize the more 'enlightened' they will become. At least economically. That's why I see this period as the beginning of an ascent rather than the beginning of a decline.
Originally posted by ena
Islam is built in such a way that it basically can't have a reformation---or adapt to the changing needs of the future....
How so?
Originally posted by bunge
How so?
I think the biggest hurdle is the Quran itself it is fairly contradictory, like a Rubik's cube with no solution.
The other is that it's a works-based religion, which gets in the way where Christianity can (like in the clothing argument on the other thread) adapt as a culture changes.
The other is what Salmon Rushdie found out about, even scholarly critiques of the Quran have been met with fatwa's or death sentences.
You just THOUGHT Jerry Falwell was screwy!
Originally posted by bunge
That's a better way to put it. Relative poverty, because even poor people these days have it better than they did in the Dark Ages.
so it won't be the New Dark Ages...
perhaps the Softly Lit Ages
if it's the Dim Ages, we've got a posterboy already
Originally posted by ena
I think the biggest hurdle is the Quran itself it is fairly contradictory, like a Rubik's cube with no solution.
That sounds a lot like the bible. In reality most of Islam is as mundane as most of Christianity. Both have extremes that are insane.
Originally posted by bunge
That sounds a lot like the bible. In reality most of Islam is as mundane as most of Christianity. Both have extremes that are insane.
What about the governmental extremists? How should we deal with them?
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
What about the governmental extremists? How should we deal with them?
Big question. Do we really want to tackle it here? I have ideas, but I don't think they really relate to the Dark Ages.
Regardless of what any religion's holy books say or don't say, two things seem fairly clear to me: (1) People will find a way to twist the "holy" words to mean whatever they want them to mean. (2) Those who are insistent on literal interpretations of scripture are the most intolerant and dangerous.
The best way to create stable, peaceful, and tolerant societies is to have stable, comfortable middle classes and a minimum of desperately poor people who feel themselves to be without hope. If you can create those circumstances, I think you'll see religious zealotry of all stripes and colors fade. Not that there aren't rich zealots, of course (bin Laden, for example), but the rich zealots lose an easily manipulated source of recruits when the general population is more worried about what color they're going to stain the deck instead of where their next meal is coming from.
Creating this stable middle class in today's Islamic world, however, is a tough challenge. The end result is certainly conceivable, it's the transition from the current state of affairs that's hard to imagine.
I don't see any great likelihood of a new Dark Ages coming out of this conflict, but I do see the possibility for very deadly terrorist strikes, even deadlier counterstrikes, and extreme economic and environmental damage, with periods of recovery taking decades. For instance, if an Islamic terrorist group were to set off an atomic weapon in a major city, I can easily see the response boiling over into genocidal fear and rage.
Some people filled with great hatred and anger, others feeling remorse about their actions and regretting the deaths of innocents -- but still not able to tolerate such threats looming over their lives... I can see such people deciding together that the only choice would be to utterly obliterate the Islamic world, leaving not one soul alive who might live to try to claim vengeance for his fellow Muslims.
Originally posted by shetline
...... but the rich zealots lose an easily manipulated source of recruits when the general population is more worried about what color they're going to stain the deck instead of where their next meal is coming from.
....that's a common sentiment, but the breeding ground in England is starting to bear suicide bomber fruit.
Originally posted by trumptman
What about the governmental extremists? How should we deal with them?
Nick
I agree ... religious extremists in government are a big problem. You could always have voted for Al Gore though.
Oh, wait. You did.
Hmm. I see what you mean.
Originally posted by aquafire
Are the West & Islam heading for the ultimate battle of survival.?
I know that Bush & many in the west don't want to portray the struggle against terrorism as a fight against Islam.
Well. This Islam = dark ages is an interesting mental connection. That's what you are told to think. Islam = the other, The bad. so the bad is elsewhere, the other. The wasps are good. The others not, right?
How many muslems do you know personally?
Originally posted by Giaguara
Well. This Islam = dark ages is an interesting mental connection. That's what you are told to think. Islam = the other, The bad. so the bad is elsewhere, the other. The wasps are good. The others not, right?
How many muslems do you know personally?
Well, you know that the height of the Islamic mediterranean empire occured during the "dark ages", so they have to be connected somehow. My theory is that the Roman empire didnt crumble because of its own failings in design/internal and external pressures, but because Muhammad was Satan himself and arrived at 630 AD to wreak havoc on the Christian Roman empire. Mind you any citations of historical circumstances contray to this theory are both wrong and the tools of Satan himself, and they are what those wrily Muslims would have you believe...
(Who uses the term dark ages any more, anyway?)
Originally posted by billybobsky
Well, you know that the height of the Islamic mediterranean empire occured during the "dark ages", so they have to be connected somehow. My theory is that the Roman empire didnt crumble because of its own failings in design/internal and external pressures, but because Muhammad was Satan himself and arrived at 630 AD to wreak havoc on the Christian Roman empire. Mind you any citations of historical circumstances contray to this theory are both wrong and the tools of Satan himself, and they are what those wrily Muslims would have you believe...
(Who uses the term dark ages any more, anyway?)
the arabic cultures used to occupy my previous home town for hundreds of years. i see churches transformed to mosquees, and then reformed back to churches, left with their islamic cupolas giving them the charachter. arabic cultures brang a lot to south european cultures, the spanish ones, italian ones, portuguese ones etc. the arabic brang the use of the sweets, invented halva and generally, introduced the sugar. 'azucar' from spanish shows its origin being in arabic.. without them, there won't be such things as halva, cassata, cannoli, loukoumi .. pr probably anything sweeter european based desert than a sour apple.
satan? that sounds childish, sorry.