Well, I was waiting for somebody to finally say that!
Looks like SJO and friends may consider clicking on the 2nd page for alternative links when doing their usual searches using the phrase "ways the US has f*ck-dup on [add today's date here]".
Hey . . . I never said it f*cked up here . . . I even said that it was probably effective
where they probably f*cked up is in applying thie technique to Iraqis seeing as that whole damn affair was a sad mistake . . . . get them Al Queda folks hooked on Metal . . . and use satanic metal too
Then they would be correct when they call use tools of Satan
...somehow though I think that if they were really think artfully they should be using Beethoven's Ninth and forcing them to watch 911 over and over while high of acid and nausea emetics
Take it easy there, chief. That part of my post wasn't directed at you at all. (I apologize if I gave you the impression I was lumping you in with that group.) I just threw that in there as a zinger.
I don't think anyone here disputes that so-called "stress-and-duress" interrogation is in no way comparable to being subjected to electric shocks, beatings, rape, or mutilation...but it still doesn't make the techniques that are being used okay. Aren't we supposed to be above this kind of stuff?
I don't think anyone here disputes that so-called "stress-and-duress" interrogation is in no way comparable to being subjected to electric shocks, beatings, rape, or mutilation...but it still doesn't make the techniques that are being used okay. Aren't we supposed to be above this kind of stuff?
so we should ask real nice when people won't answer on sensative subjects? (WOMD, terrorism) get real. man, i swear people live in some fantasy world now where bad things don't happen.
guess what. the world is a damn ugly place. there are a lot of very bad things that happen. sometimes people need to do bad things to protect that fat lazy people who sit on their asses at home.
The actual interrogation procedure (if the Washington Post's description of similar interrogations in Afghanistan is anything to go by) is less likely to be '45 minutes of Barney and Metallica' then it is 24 hours of forced standing or kneeling in a brightly lit room with a loop of the chosen music playing continously at a high volume. It's 'torture lite' because it leaves no permanent damage - not because it isn't unpleasant.
I don't think anyone here disputes that so-called "stress-and-duress" interrogation is in no way comparable to being subjected to electric shocks, beatings, rape, or mutilation...but it still doesn't make the techniques that are being used okay. Aren't we supposed to be above this kind of stuff?
Actually when you call them both forms of torture, then yes, you are saying they are comparable.
By this loose and easy definition of torture, what treatment would not constitute torture? Confining them to a large, spacious cell? Guess Anders and his ink could call that torture, as it could cause mental suffering. Don't like those handcuffs, guess not, because it's torture. Gave you a medical examination to make sure your were healthy? Well, if turning and coughing and getting cupped causes you physical discomfort, call it torture and get some liberal wank to fight for your cause.
Anyone that works in a building that plays Muzak, by Anders definition, should be able to sue their employer for violationg their human rights by torturing them.
I honestly thought Anders was being sarcastic with this thread originally, but am now convinced that swallow any charge against the US, so long as it sounds bad.
Actually when you call them both forms of torture, then yes, you are saying they are comparable.
By this loose and easy definition of torture, what treatment would not constitute torture? Confining them to a large, spacious cell? Guess Anders and his ink could call that torture, as it could cause mental suffering. Don't like those handcuffs, guess not, because it's torture. Gave you a medical examination to make sure your were healthy? Well, if turning and coughing and getting cupped causes you physical discomfort, call it torture and get some liberal wank to fight for your cause.
The thing is, there is a definition of what constitutes torture...agreed on by the UN...and handcuffing people or submitting them to a medical exam is not covered by it, but subjecting people to sleep deprivation and psychological duress is.
Perhaps I should have used 'equivalent' instead of comparable...
I'd still like to believe that we can accomplish what we need to without sinking even partway to the level of Saddam Hussein.
The thing is, there is a definition of what constitutes torture...agreed on by the UN...and handcuffing people or submitting them to a medical exam is not covered by it, but subjecting people to sleep deprivation and psychological duress is.
The problem is, as I see it given the UN definition Anders provided...
Quote:
"...the term 'torture' means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."
is that so many things can be covered by it to almost make it meaningless in its ambiguity.
First off, there's the word 'severe' in there... what's 'severe'? Are we talking red hot poker in the eye, or being kept awake for a couple of days? (Hell, my longest stint working, straight, in grad school was 86 hours. No joke.) I guess I don't see annoying loud music for a day or so as 'severe' in relation to what is *usually* meant by 'severe' with respect to the word torture.
I mean jeez, I get hauled in the poky by the local constabulary on suspicion of, well, whatever. They keep me in a cell overnight. I can sleep, I get food, I get water, but gee willikers, it's got me stressed out.
Let's see, mental suffering, intentionally inflicted, suspected of commiting a crime, inflicted by a public official... holy shibnitz, I been tortured!
\
It all hinges on the vague word 'severe'.
*I* think severe means scarring, loss of body parts, beatings, rape, etc.
I do *not* think it means Barney. \ That's just annoying as hell.
The problem is, as I see it given the UN definition .... is that so many things can be covered by it to almost make it meaningless in its ambiguity.
True - but that is just the text of the convention, which is interpreted by the Commission on Human Rights, which found that:
Quote:
(1) restraining in very painful conditions, (2) hooding under special conditions, (3) sounding of loud music for prolonged periods, (4) sleep deprivation for prolonged periods, (5) threats, including death threats, (6) violent shaking, and (7) using cold air to chill [are] breaches of article 16 and also constitute torture as defined in article 1 of the Convention. This conclusion is particularly evident where such methods of interrogation are used in combination (source)
It's a pretty grey area, and I do find myself wondering if Barney and Lars Ulrich is really that bad if it'll help save lives...but there is always the possibility that things get taken too far, like when two prisoners died in custody in Afghanistan.
Check out the Post article I linked to above...if even half of it is true, it makes for pretty chilling reading. And bear in mind that this isn't an anti-Bush administration thing. The practice of sending prisoners that resisted stress and duress interrogation to countries like Egypt and Syria for more persuasive questioning was pioneered during the Clinton years.
Cute? I´m dead serious. THIS IS TORTURE and makes all talk about the spread of western democratic values sound hollow I just refuse to put the faces up everytime there is something out there that is wrong.
Maybe this is yet another indication that the UN uses the term "severe" as a throw-away word which ultimately means absolutely nothing? Anybody remember "severe consequences" or "severest of consequences"? What about this UN definition of torture which seems to go out of its way to describe the more innocuous of tortures, but where is the listing of the more objectional (and obvious) tortures (such as electrocution, cutting, dismembering of appendages, beatings, etc.)?
Maybe this is yet another indication that the UN uses the term "severe" as a throw-away word which ultimately means absolutely nothing? Anybody remember "severe consequences" or "severest of consequences"? What about this UN definition of torture which seems to go out of its way to describe the more innocuous of tortures, but where is the listing of the more objectional (and obvious) tortures (such as electrocution, cutting, dismembering of appendages, beatings, etc.)?
That's the way that legal documents like this - intenational treaties and conventions - get written. Language that is open to interpretation is used, and when an activity that may be covered by the document comes into question, the lawyers are called in.
With respect to the interpretation I cited above - where the convention was deemed to cover sleep deprivation, etc. - this was in response to specific circumstances whereby the Israeli intelligence services were using stress and duress to question suspected terrorists.
I guess this troture is kinda like working a 16-hour day and then dropping acid at 1 a.m.---on a weekend mind you---and then getting Kate Bush's Wuthering Heights stuck in your head for five hours while you're popping and fizzing---'till about noon.
Not nice.
It was many moons before I could listen to Kate at all.
I'll bet there's gonna be some Iwaqis that will never be able to watch Barney once he hits Iraqi syndication.
I guess this troture is kinda like working a 16-hour day and then dropping acid at 1 a.m.---on a weekend mind you---and then getting Kate Bush's Wuthering Heights stuck in your head for five hours while you're popping and fizzing---'till about noon.
Not nice.
It was many moons before I could listen to Kate at all.
I'll bet there's gonna be some Iwaqis that will never be able to watch Barney once he hits Iraqi syndication.
try doing it on a week night when you have to be at work by 10:00am the next morning and you didn't start coming down until 7:00. oh what fun. but hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time.
Comments
Originally posted by Randycat99
Well, I was waiting for somebody to finally say that!
Looks like SJO and friends may consider clicking on the 2nd page for alternative links when doing their usual searches using the phrase "ways the US has f*ck-dup on [add today's date here]".
Hey . . . I never said it f*cked up here . . . I even said that it was probably effective
where they probably f*cked up is in applying thie technique to Iraqis seeing as that whole damn affair was a sad mistake . . . . get them Al Queda folks hooked on Metal . . . and use satanic metal too
Then they would be correct when they call use tools of Satan
...somehow though I think that if they were really think artfully they should be using Beethoven's Ninth and forcing them to watch 911 over and over while high of acid and nausea emetics
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
I don't think anyone here disputes that so-called "stress-and-duress" interrogation is in no way comparable to being subjected to electric shocks, beatings, rape, or mutilation...but it still doesn't make the techniques that are being used okay. Aren't we supposed to be above this kind of stuff?
so we should ask real nice when people won't answer on sensative subjects? (WOMD, terrorism) get real. man, i swear people live in some fantasy world now where bad things don't happen.
guess what. the world is a damn ugly place. there are a lot of very bad things that happen. sometimes people need to do bad things to protect that fat lazy people who sit on their asses at home.
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
I don't think anyone here disputes that so-called "stress-and-duress" interrogation is in no way comparable to being subjected to electric shocks, beatings, rape, or mutilation...but it still doesn't make the techniques that are being used okay. Aren't we supposed to be above this kind of stuff?
Actually when you call them both forms of torture, then yes, you are saying they are comparable.
By this loose and easy definition of torture, what treatment would not constitute torture? Confining them to a large, spacious cell? Guess Anders and his ink could call that torture, as it could cause mental suffering. Don't like those handcuffs, guess not, because it's torture. Gave you a medical examination to make sure your were healthy? Well, if turning and coughing and getting cupped causes you physical discomfort, call it torture and get some liberal wank to fight for your cause.
Anyone that works in a building that plays Muzak, by Anders definition, should be able to sue their employer for violationg their human rights by torturing them.
I honestly thought Anders was being sarcastic with this thread originally, but am now convinced that swallow any charge against the US, so long as it sounds bad.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Actually when you call them both forms of torture, then yes, you are saying they are comparable.
By this loose and easy definition of torture, what treatment would not constitute torture? Confining them to a large, spacious cell? Guess Anders and his ink could call that torture, as it could cause mental suffering. Don't like those handcuffs, guess not, because it's torture. Gave you a medical examination to make sure your were healthy? Well, if turning and coughing and getting cupped causes you physical discomfort, call it torture and get some liberal wank to fight for your cause.
The thing is, there is a definition of what constitutes torture...agreed on by the UN...and handcuffing people or submitting them to a medical exam is not covered by it, but subjecting people to sleep deprivation and psychological duress is.
Perhaps I should have used 'equivalent' instead of comparable...
I'd still like to believe that we can accomplish what we need to without sinking even partway to the level of Saddam Hussein.
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
The thing is, there is a definition of what constitutes torture...agreed on by the UN...and handcuffing people or submitting them to a medical exam is not covered by it, but subjecting people to sleep deprivation and psychological duress is.
The problem is, as I see it given the UN definition Anders provided...
"...the term 'torture' means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."
is that so many things can be covered by it to almost make it meaningless in its ambiguity.
First off, there's the word 'severe' in there... what's 'severe'? Are we talking red hot poker in the eye, or being kept awake for a couple of days? (Hell, my longest stint working, straight, in grad school was 86 hours. No joke.) I guess I don't see annoying loud music for a day or so as 'severe' in relation to what is *usually* meant by 'severe' with respect to the word torture.
I mean jeez, I get hauled in the poky by the local constabulary on suspicion of, well, whatever. They keep me in a cell overnight. I can sleep, I get food, I get water, but gee willikers, it's got me stressed out.
Let's see, mental suffering, intentionally inflicted, suspected of commiting a crime, inflicted by a public official... holy shibnitz, I been tortured!
It all hinges on the vague word 'severe'.
*I* think severe means scarring, loss of body parts, beatings, rape, etc.
I do *not* think it means Barney.
Originally posted by Kickaha
The problem is, as I see it given the UN definition .... is that so many things can be covered by it to almost make it meaningless in its ambiguity.
True - but that is just the text of the convention, which is interpreted by the Commission on Human Rights, which found that:
(1) restraining in very painful conditions, (2) hooding under special conditions, (3) sounding of loud music for prolonged periods, (4) sleep deprivation for prolonged periods, (5) threats, including death threats, (6) violent shaking, and (7) using cold air to chill [are] breaches of article 16 and also constitute torture as defined in article 1 of the Convention. This conclusion is particularly evident where such methods of interrogation are used in combination (source)
It's a pretty grey area, and I do find myself wondering if Barney and Lars Ulrich is really that bad if it'll help save lives...but there is always the possibility that things get taken too far, like when two prisoners died in custody in Afghanistan.
Check out the Post article I linked to above...if even half of it is true, it makes for pretty chilling reading. And bear in mind that this isn't an anti-Bush administration thing. The practice of sending prisoners that resisted stress and duress interrogation to countries like Egypt and Syria for more persuasive questioning was pioneered during the Clinton years.
Iraqi: No.
US soldier: Tell me where Saddam hid his weapons of Mass destruction??!!!
Iraqi: No.
US soldier: Tell me where Saddam hid his weapons of Mass destruction??!!!
Iraqi: No!
US soldier: Tell me where Saddam hid his weapons of Mass destruction??!!!
Iraqi: No!!
US soldier: Tell me where Saddam hid his weapons of Mass destruction??!!!
Iraqi: No!!!
US soldier: Tell me where Saddam hid his weapons of Mass destruction??!!!
Iraqi: No!!!
US soldier: Tell me where Saddam hid his weapons of Mass destruction??!!!
Iraqi: Stop!!! Your torturing me by asking the same question over and over!! I want to talk to Jonny Cochrahn!
Originally posted by Anders the White
Cute? I´m dead serious. THIS IS TORTURE and makes all talk about the spread of western democratic values sound hollow I just refuse to put the
OPERA!!!!!
Originally posted by ena
they even tried.........
OPERA!!!!!
kill da wabbit
kill da wabbit
wit my spear and magic helmet
spear and magic helmet?
my spear and magic helmet
wet me give you a sample
north wind blow
south wind blow
tornado
huricane
Originally posted by running with scissors
kill da wabbit
kill da wabbit
wit my spear and magic helmet
spear and magic helmet?
my spear and magic helmet
wet me give you a sample
north wind blow
south wind blow
tornado
huricane
TAWK YOU WASCLLY IWAQIS!!!
TAWK!!!!
Originally posted by ena
TAWK YOU WASCLLY IWAQIS!!!
TAWK!!!!
Most absurd thread, ever.
Originally posted by Randycat99
Maybe this is yet another indication that the UN uses the term "severe" as a throw-away word which ultimately means absolutely nothing? Anybody remember "severe consequences" or "severest of consequences"? What about this UN definition of torture which seems to go out of its way to describe the more innocuous of tortures, but where is the listing of the more objectional (and obvious) tortures (such as electrocution, cutting, dismembering of appendages, beatings, etc.)?
That's the way that legal documents like this - intenational treaties and conventions - get written. Language that is open to interpretation is used, and when an activity that may be covered by the document comes into question, the lawyers are called in.
With respect to the interpretation I cited above - where the convention was deemed to cover sleep deprivation, etc. - this was in response to specific circumstances whereby the Israeli intelligence services were using stress and duress to question suspected terrorists.
Not nice.
It was many moons before I could listen to Kate at all.
I'll bet there's gonna be some Iwaqis that will never be able to watch Barney once he hits Iraqi syndication.
Originally posted by ena
I guess this troture is kinda like working a 16-hour day and then dropping acid at 1 a.m.---on a weekend mind you---and then getting Kate Bush's Wuthering Heights stuck in your head for five hours while you're popping and fizzing---'till about noon.
Not nice.
It was many moons before I could listen to Kate at all.
I'll bet there's gonna be some Iwaqis that will never be able to watch Barney once he hits Iraqi syndication.
try doing it on a week night when you have to be at work by 10:00am the next morning and you didn't start coming down until 7:00. oh what fun. but hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time.