Armstrong wins the Tour

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
... and what a Tour it was. As much as I would have liked to see Ullrich win, I have to admit that he was the better rider. Still, I'm a bit reluctant to accept Armstrong as the same kind of super-cyclists as the other five-time-winners (Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain) were. I guess these things take time.



In any case, for the off-chance that mr. Lance Armstrong is an AI lurker: Congratulations for a job well done.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 56
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    der Kopf:



    Quote:

    Still, I'm a bit reluctant to accept Armstrong as the same kind of super-cyclists as the other five-time-winners (Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain) were. I guess these things take time.



    It must be difficult to ackonwledge that one of the greatest ever trains in Austin, Texas.



    So much elitism and xenophobia to fight... gah it must be hell for you.
  • Reply 2 of 56
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Its so fun that someone absolutly wants this to be a "Us vs. Europe" competition. I am pretty sure that the french most of all wanted one from their own country to win but since that is imposible I am sure an american is preffered over someone from Germany.



    Armstrong is not Texas or US. He is Armstrong. And this years Armstrong is a more humble bike rider than previous years and simply liked more. Add to that that the one everybody felt with and liked, Hamilton, is actually ALSO an american and even a very good friend of Armstrongs.
  • Reply 3 of 56
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    We already have a thread on this



    Armstrong is very Texas. Maybe someone not from the US can't tell but the things he says marks him as being from Texas.
  • Reply 4 of 56
    der kopfder kopf Posts: 2,275member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    It must be difficult to ackonwledge that one of the greatest ever trains in Austin, Texas.



    So much elitism and xenophobia to fight... gah it must be hell for you.




    Oh c'mon, groverat, I think that is one below the belt. Unfair and incorrect. This is not about Armstrong being American, it is about him not being the superchamp I think some of the others were (especially Merckx, the canibal). If you look at Merckx' palmares, you'll see that he won EVERYTHING. Armstrong, a bit like Indurain (IMO) is probably too much of the calculated, exclusive cyclist, who has one goal in the cycling year, being bringing home the Tour, which he, as Indurain, does very well. I'm not saying that the changed sporting climate doesn't necessitate this, but what I do say is that I have a hard time equating him to some of the others in that pantheon he now belongs too.



    (also, I believe Armstrong and his equipe, guided by the good Johan Bruyneel, have their training base in Spain).
  • Reply 5 of 56
    der kopfder kopf Posts: 2,275member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    Armstrong is very Texas. Maybe someone not from the US can't tell but the things he says marks him as being from Texas.



    Yep, especially the interviews he gives after each stage, in French.
  • Reply 6 of 56
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    I'm sure if your not familiar with it you couldn't tell. Plus I'm sure Lance doesn't know how to translate his texas talk into frog speak. What does he say in french? "Uhhhhh Uhhhhhh There was a lot of Uhhhhhhh water on the floor Uhhhhhh and I was Uhhhhhhh going slow Uhhhhhh"?
  • Reply 7 of 56
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott



    Armstrong is very Texas. Maybe someone not from the US can't tell but the things he says marks him as being from Texas.




    This may be but then you agree its an US internal thing. But what Grover tried to see was a "Europe/France have a hard time accepting a Texan" angle thats not really there.
  • Reply 8 of 56
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    I'm sure if your not familiar with it you couldn't tell. Plus I'm sure Lance doesn't know how to translate his texas talk into frog speak. What does he say in french? "Uhhhhh Uhhhhhh There was a lot of Uhhhhhhh water on the floor Uhhhhhh and I was Uhhhhhhh going slow Uhhhhhh"?







    Actually he is doing fine. Not the best grammar and yes he is sometimes looking for the words. But his french is probably better than mine.



    Quote:

    frog speak.



    IS this your way of saying "Goddammit I WANT this to be a US vs. Europe thing "?
  • Reply 9 of 56
    jrcjrc Posts: 805member
    The only way it could be a french vs usa thing other than fans who have nothing to do with it but watch it on tv, is if europe even mattered in all of this.
  • Reply 10 of 56
    der kopfder kopf Posts: 2,275member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JRC

    The only way it could be a french vs usa thing other than fans who have nothing to do with it but watch it on tv, is if europe even mattered in all of this.



    What do you mean by this? Please explain, for I'm afraid I understand your statement in a wrong way.
  • Reply 11 of 56
    der kopfder kopf Posts: 2,275member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    frog speak



    So your trip to Paris wasn't a success, huh?



    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    What does he say in french?



    Whatever any cyclist says right after a stage, huffing and puffing, dripping with sweat. Something about a near-fall, about missing the right démarrage, about being dehydrated or about the other being just a tad better, or about having woke up yourself, feeling you've got superlegs today, and deciding that you're gonna try something today. I thought you were familiar with cycling, Scott.
  • Reply 12 of 56
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JRC

    The only way it could be a french vs usa thing other than fans who have nothing to do with it but watch it on tv, is if europe even mattered in all of this.







    Had to read it a coouple of times before I got the point.



    Kopf: "...if europe even mattered in all of this.". Speaking about Tour de France. Get it
  • Reply 13 of 56
    der kopfder kopf Posts: 2,275member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Anders

    And this years Armstrong is a more humble bike rider than previous years and simply liked more.



    You think? That's not the impression I get. I remember the first year he came back, and actually won the Tour. Everybody was awestruck at this hero, who overcame cancer and won the Tour de France, maybe one of the most demanding sporting events in the world. This year, however, hardly anybody, if not nobody mentioned his fight with cancer. Many people were close to pleased with how weak he appeared in the first time trials and in the first Pyrenee stage, and people were already crowning Ullrich, the new/refound king, who, breaks your heart to think, left his newborn and firstborn daughter to come win this Tour.



    I have a feeling that people are fatigued with Armstrong, much as they were with Indurain in the end: here we go again. Good prologue, win one or both time trials (with a time advantage that makes your competitors feel like they can only compete for second place), and win a mountain stage if you feel you've got it in you. Again, this is probably the best way to win the Tour, but it does get a bit boring. Especially if the competition seems to be miles away (which is not Armstrong's fault, mind you). Not for naught has this Tour been dubbed the most exciting in 13 years (with, of course, a reference to the historice Fignon-LeMond clash of titans, won by the latter American with only 7 seconds).



    And Armstrong, through all this, has definitely deserved his victories, and I have been a fierce supporter of the man (hey, he retaught us the value of smaller speeds - faster peddling-, he oftentimes crushed the competition). Yet, I think that this year, Armstrong has probably been less favored by the general audience, than any of the previous years.
  • Reply 14 of 56
    placeboplacebo Posts: 5,767member
    The way Ulrich waited for Lance, just as Lance waited for Ulrich last year, was incredible. I can't think of any other times that anyone showed such admirable sportsmanship, in bicycling or any other sport. What honorable people.
  • Reply 15 of 56
    der kopfder kopf Posts: 2,275member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Placebo

    The way Ulrich waited for Lance, just as Lance waited for Ulrich last year, was incredible. I can't think of any other times that anyone showed such admirable sportsmanship, in bicycling or any other sport. What honorable people.



    Quite exactly, Placebo. It's about sports, about "may the best man win", but also "may the best man win in a fair fight".
  • Reply 16 of 56
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Yes the feeling of "here we go again" IS present. But thats because we want it to be an interesting sporting event. But there is another game going on at the same time. The difference between Lnace a couple of years ago and now is how he express his view on the race.



    Remember back when he and Pantani was head-to-head on a mountain stage and Pantani won? It was clear that Lance raced for the yellow jersey and Pantani for the stage. And its normal that in those situations they spilt the price: Lance got what he wanted and let Pantani get the stage as a thanks for the coorporation. BUT Lance did what you should NEVER do in such a situation. He said he gave the victory to Pantani. Besides being a lie (the right describtion would be he didn´t fight for the victory) it degraded Pantanis victory.



    Today he is more humble to the situation. He had crisis and he talks about them. He acknowledges it when he has a difficult time and the other races are stronger than him. Its more true to the situation.
  • Reply 17 of 56
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    When Armstrong came back from cancer he was treated like crap and loads of people suspected him (many still do) of taking supplements or using performance-enhancing drugs. He was the most tested guy on the Tour.



    You may consider the "elitism and xenophobia" comment below-the-belt, but it's true. There is no reason to regard Armstrong as an inferior cyclist compared with the others and as an athlete/competitor he is quite possibly above them all, taking into account overcoming cancer.



    It doesn't sit well with you because he's American, which I think is petty and childish.



    If Dirk Nowitski wins MVP in the NBA sometime in the future I don't know how many Americans will be grousing about him being German, accusing him of cheating.
  • Reply 18 of 56
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Look Grover. To survive cancer and eeven participate in TdF was recognised as a triumph by everyone. Lance just had the unluck of returning just as the doping issue broke in TdF. Everybody and their mother was accused of having taken doping not just Lance. Riis still carries the less than flattering nick name mr. 60%. If you won as much as one stage in the tour it was automaticly considered a result of doping in the eye of the press. In other words yes Lance was accused of doping himself. Just like everyone else. ANd if he is the most tested rider its a cadeau to his winning statistics more than anything else.



    If anyone considered him inferiour it was not as an athlete but because he didn´t live up to the unwritten rules and didn´t try to be friends with everyone (like Indurain always did) and did stupid things like the Pantani incident. But it has something to do with his personality (that has changed for the better the last two years).
  • Reply 19 of 56
    der kopfder kopf Posts: 2,275member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    It doesn't sit well with you because he's American, which I think is petty and childish.



    I consider that an insult.



    The day Armstrong has won all of the spring classics (ranging from Milano-San Remo, Paris-Roubaix, the Ronde van Vlaanderen, the Amstel Gold Race, and all in between and all after, all the way up to the World Championships annually in october, which he DID win), and has won one or more mass sprints in the Tour de France and other races, and has won the Giro d'Italia, and has won the Vuelta de España, that is the day I will accept him as Merckx' equal.

    I truly resent you playing out the xenophobia card. Have you ever watched reporting in my and other European countries? Have you held sociological surveys of the general European opinion on Armstrong between 1993 and 2003?
  • Reply 20 of 56
    der kopfder kopf Posts: 2,275member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Anders

    Everybody and their mother was accused of having taken doping not just Lance.



    Evenso, he was the one top-cyclist that has been mentioned the LEAST with respect to doping. At least in my country, the euphoria that Armstrong inspired many of us with in his first few winning years, almost made it physically dangerous for anyone to claim superman Armstrong was a doper.
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