<strong>Obviously the 7457 wasn't ready. That did surprise me because I was told a new G4+ in Jan. I'm wondering if that has changed (duh) maybe the reasoning behind "year of the laptop".</strong><hr></blockquote>
After the lackluster updates to the iMac and eMac, I have to wonder if the chip was delayed enough that Apple was forced to wait until summer to roll it out, which means that there's not much point considering it for the pro line. Mot might be releasing it in (late?) March, but if Apple's going to use it in their consumer lines they'll need quantities that might require a a month or three of stockpiling.
[quote]<strong>I think that could mean the towers ar done with G4s and the iMacs were'nt bumped much because they will get to 1.25+ (and possibly a design tweak) by summer then the towers get the 970 in the fall. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is my conclusion as well. I'm leaning toward the interpretation that it's bad news in the short term (since Apple would probably have liked to introduce a better upgrade), but good news in the medium term.
By stating that the new iMacs are part of their "Spring Line," it clearly points to the new PPC processor debuting sometime this summer or early fall for PowerMacs. Apple couldn't have made the tea leaf-reading any easier. I think the iMac will inheret the latest the G4 has to offer, once the 970s are shipping in PowerMacs. Since scores show the 970 is a significantly faster processor than the G4 at the same clock speed, it wouldn't hurt to bump the iMacs to the latest and greatest G4. We're likely to see 1.4 GHz and 1.2 Ghz G4 iMacs this fall. The PowerMacs will have 1.8 Ghz and 2 GHz 970s.
[quote]By stating that the new iMacs are part of their "Spring Line," it clearly points to the new PPC processor debuting sometime this summer or early fall for PowerMacs. Apple couldn't have made the tea leaf-reading any easier. I think the iMac will inheret the latest the G4 has to offer, once the 970s are shipping in PowerMacs. Since scores show the 970 is a significantly faster processor than the G4 at the same clock speed, it wouldn't hurt to bump the iMacs to the latest and greatest G4. We're likely to see 1.4 GHz and 1.2 Ghz G4 iMacs this fall. The PowerMacs will have 1.8 Ghz and 2 GHz 970s. <hr></blockquote>
<strong> Notice apple didn't do anything but bump, and the tower was bumped just a little. I think that could mean the towers ar done with G4s and the iMacs were'nt bumped much because they will get to 1.25+ (and possibly a design tweak) by summer then the towers get the 970 in the fall.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
or because the towers are bumped "just a little" we can expect another run of slightly faster G4s in the tower this fall (not faster than 1.6Ghz: jobs loves to have options) so the imac can also get slightly faster. and the year of the desktop will be ... 2004. same input, other conclusion.
or because the towers are bumped "just a little" we can expect another run of slightly faster G4s in the tower this fall (not faster than 1.6Ghz: jobs loves to have options) so the imac can also get slightly faster. and the year of the desktop will be ... 2004. same input, other conclusion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yea but slightly faster this year isn't options, it's flat sales. Tower sales are slowing and the iMac is starting to as well. So, they need speed right now. The G4+ was the last for the towers then the 970. We didn't get the 7457 so it's either been pushed back to the fall or skipped over to the imac by the fall or summer. So it's good or bad depending on your angle.
I agree. The 970 is coming soon. Just look at apples hardware lineup. I feel they have skipped the 7457 cause the 970 will be coming so soon that the 7457 wouldn't be worth the extra expense.
The IBM MDF announcement of the 970 said it would arrive at target frequencies of 1.4 - 1.8 GHz. When a manufacturer builds chips not all of them will run at the top clock rate so they typically sell a couple of speeds. Probably 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 GHz based on what was in the initial announcement. This is also IBM's conservative estimate that they are confident they can deliver at introduction... if things go well, and there are hints floating about that they are, we may see even faster chips at introduction -- 2 GHz certainly isn't out of reach.
From day 1, way back in March 2000 the intention for the 0.13 micron G4 implementation (i.e. the 7457) has been to go into consumer and notebook computers. There is no reason to expect them to ever show up in the PowerMac towers. The most likely scenario at the moment is that the current towers will be replaced in Aug-Sept by 970-based machines, and the iMac and notebooks will be updated with 7457 processors at >1 GHz. Probably all with DDR memory. This gives Motorola plenty of time to build enough of those processor for Apple and to get the speeds up. A 6 month run is Apple's normal production cycle so given the introductions of the last week, that puts the new lines appearing in roughly Aug-Sept. Hmmm... could all this be coincidence? I don't think so...
<strong>I agree. The 970 is coming soon. Just look at apples hardware lineup. I feel they have skipped the 7457 cause the 970 will be coming so soon that the 7457 wouldn't be worth the extra expense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
BTW: the 7457 is a "drop-in" replacement for the 7455 so there isn't any "extra expense" for Apple. As I said in the previous note, the 7457 has always been intended for the consumer / notebook machines... not the towers.
<strong>From day 1, way back in March 2000 the intention for the 0.13 micron G4 implementation (i.e. the 7457) has been to go into consumer and notebook computers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where did MOT announce this chip, and is there any info about it online? I am not talking about the "leaked PDF" but at some forum or another? A link would be nice. I still am having a hard time believing that the 7457 exists anywhere except on paper.
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if we never see it, as MOT has probably scraped it. The current G4 has enough room to give the iMac an upgrade or two more before switching to the 970 (if Apple wants, they could go 970 sooner). The iBook could go G3 forever (didn't IBM announce a G3 with SIMD, and other stuff?). The PowerBook/PowerMac will get 970 from the next go.
So what does this mean? There is no need for the 7457? MOT knows this, and probably decide to scrap it after the paper came out. Plus, with MOT at work on the 85XX series, they have no need to do the 74XX series any longer. Future customers in the embedded arena would rather get a 85XX over any 7457 would be my guess.
Where did MOT announce this chip, and is there any info about it online? I am not talking about the "leaked PDF" but at some forum or another? A link would be nice. I still am having a hard time believing that the 7457 exists anywhere except on paper.
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if we never see it, as MOT has probably scraped it. The current G4 has enough room to give the iMac an upgrade or two more before switching to the 970 (if Apple wants, they could go 970 sooner). The iBook could go G3 forever (didn't IBM announce a G3 with SIMD, and other stuff?). The PowerBook/PowerMac will get 970 from the next go.
So what does this mean? There is no need for the 7457? MOT knows this, and probably decide to scrap it after the paper came out. Plus, with MOT at work on the 85XX series, they have no need to do the 74XX series any longer. Future customers in the embedded arena would rather get a 85XX over any 7457 would be my guess.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Moto has plenty of customers who use the G4 that would like a lower power, higher speed version. The 85xx has its uses, but it doesn't hold a candle to the G4's AltiVec unit and Moto's presentations on their respective vector units make that clear.
Taking the G4 to 0.13 micron SOI has been on the roadmap for a long time and its the next logical step, and a heck of a lot cheaper than developing a new core. As suggested above, its possible that issues with the 0.13 process will just cause them to leapfrog to the 0.09 process, but so much the better. That might explain the delay in getting this chip out.
Where did MOT announce this chip, and is there any info about it online? I am not talking about the "leaked PDF" but at some forum or another? A link would be nice. I still am having a hard time believing that the 7457 exists anywhere except on paper.
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if we never see it, as MOT has probably scraped it. The current G4 has enough room to give the iMac an upgrade or two more before switching to the 970 (if Apple wants, they could go 970 sooner). The iBook could go G3 forever (didn't IBM announce a G3 with SIMD, and other stuff?). The PowerBook/PowerMac will get 970 from the next go.
<strong>The IBM MDF announcement of the 970 said it would arrive at target frequencies of 1.4 - 1.8 GHz. When a manufacturer builds chips not all of them will run at the top clock rate so they typically sell a couple of speeds. Probably 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 GHz based on what was in the initial announcement. This is also IBM's conservative estimate that they are confident they can deliver at introduction... if things go well, and there are hints floating about that they are, we may see even faster chips at introduction -- 2 GHz certainly isn't out of reach.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I saw where the IBM presentation said speeds up to 1.8 GHz but where does it say that will be the initial speed? If you look at most roadmaps, the top speed listed is usually at least 2 generations away. Maybe I am just confusing the information given on a 'roadmap' with the type of announcement made by IBM last October but it does seem a possibility. That would be disappointing if the first machines to use it topped off at less than 1.8.
I saw where the IBM presentation said speeds up to 1.8 GHz but where does it say that will be the initial speed? If you look at most roadmaps, the top speed listed is usually at least 2 generations away. Maybe I am just confusing the information given on a 'roadmap' with the type of announcement made by IBM last October but it does seem a possibility. That would be disappointing if the first machines to use it topped off at less than 1.8.</strong><hr></blockquote>
IBM hasn't released any roadmaps on the 9xx series of chips. Pretty much everything they said was referring to at release.
I have a feeling that Apple will keep Motorola around for something. It would be nice to have a little more certainty as to whether the PPC970 will be out this year. However, it really seems that motorola has gone to hell and that IBM may be the only solution. The 970 fits the equation so well that I don't think many of us have any doubts as to its future coming. However, the time frame as to when it will show up is still a bit cloudy. Programmer and Redkid both say Aug-Sept, and I tend to agree with that perspective. I would love to see the 970 as soon as June, but I feel that is pushing it. Although, if Apple was really working hard on it and things went great on IBM's side, this could be a possibility. We can only hope, that whenever the 970 does come out, it will be sufficient to bring Apple back to the top performance wise.
<strong>I saw where the IBM presentation said speeds up to 1.8 GHz but where does it say that will be the initial speed? If you look at most roadmaps, the top speed listed is usually at least 2 generations away. Maybe I am just confusing the information given on a 'roadmap' with the type of announcement made by IBM last October but it does seem a possibility. That would be disappointing if the first machines to use it topped off at less than 1.8.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The roadmap that is part of the MDF presentation seems pretty clear. There is a single icon for the 970 marked 1.4-1.8 GHz, just like there are single icons for the G3 series chips (and attached clock speed ranges). Also, its hard to predict eventual top speeds, so they usually don't try... they just put "1.4+ Ghz" or something like that.
<strong>I agree. The 970 is coming soon. Just look at apples hardware lineup. I feel they have skipped the 7457 cause the 970 will be coming so soon that the 7457 wouldn't be worth the extra expense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
your right about this option, i still got the Q3 timeframe for a ppc970 introduction in my mind. (and the experiences with the moto G4 in late 1999 and there after) maybe i got a little pessimistic about timeframes in the last couple of years.
<strong>I agree. The 970 is coming soon. Just look at apples hardware lineup. I feel they have skipped the 7457 cause the 970 will be coming so soon that the 7457 wouldn't be worth the extra expense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have a feeling they skipped the 7457 because it isn't actually released and they had no choice. The iMacs and laptops will receive them pretty soon after they are ready though.
Comments
<strong>Obviously the 7457 wasn't ready. That did surprise me because I was told a new G4+ in Jan. I'm wondering if that has changed (duh) maybe the reasoning behind "year of the laptop".</strong><hr></blockquote>
After the lackluster updates to the iMac and eMac, I have to wonder if the chip was delayed enough that Apple was forced to wait until summer to roll it out, which means that there's not much point considering it for the pro line. Mot might be releasing it in (late?) March, but if Apple's going to use it in their consumer lines they'll need quantities that might require a a month or three of stockpiling.
[quote]<strong>I think that could mean the towers ar done with G4s and the iMacs were'nt bumped much because they will get to 1.25+ (and possibly a design tweak) by summer then the towers get the 970 in the fall. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is my conclusion as well. I'm leaning toward the interpretation that it's bad news in the short term (since Apple would probably have liked to introduce a better upgrade), but good news in the medium term.
I hope so.
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong> Notice apple didn't do anything but bump, and the tower was bumped just a little. I think that could mean the towers ar done with G4s and the iMacs were'nt bumped much because they will get to 1.25+ (and possibly a design tweak) by summer then the towers get the 970 in the fall.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
or because the towers are bumped "just a little" we can expect another run of slightly faster G4s in the tower this fall (not faster than 1.6Ghz: jobs loves to have options) so the imac can also get slightly faster. and the year of the desktop will be ... 2004. same input, other conclusion.
<strong>
or because the towers are bumped "just a little" we can expect another run of slightly faster G4s in the tower this fall (not faster than 1.6Ghz: jobs loves to have options) so the imac can also get slightly faster. and the year of the desktop will be ... 2004. same input, other conclusion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yea but slightly faster this year isn't options, it's flat sales. Tower sales are slowing and the iMac is starting to as well. So, they need speed right now. The G4+ was the last for the towers then the 970. We didn't get the 7457 so it's either been pushed back to the fall or skipped over to the imac by the fall or summer. So it's good or bad depending on your angle.
From day 1, way back in March 2000 the intention for the 0.13 micron G4 implementation (i.e. the 7457) has been to go into consumer and notebook computers. There is no reason to expect them to ever show up in the PowerMac towers. The most likely scenario at the moment is that the current towers will be replaced in Aug-Sept by 970-based machines, and the iMac and notebooks will be updated with 7457 processors at >1 GHz. Probably all with DDR memory. This gives Motorola plenty of time to build enough of those processor for Apple and to get the speeds up. A 6 month run is Apple's normal production cycle so given the introductions of the last week, that puts the new lines appearing in roughly Aug-Sept. Hmmm... could all this be coincidence? I don't think so...
<strong>I agree. The 970 is coming soon. Just look at apples hardware lineup. I feel they have skipped the 7457 cause the 970 will be coming so soon that the 7457 wouldn't be worth the extra expense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
BTW: the 7457 is a "drop-in" replacement for the 7455 so there isn't any "extra expense" for Apple. As I said in the previous note, the 7457 has always been intended for the consumer / notebook machines... not the towers.
<strong>From day 1, way back in March 2000 the intention for the 0.13 micron G4 implementation (i.e. the 7457) has been to go into consumer and notebook computers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where did MOT announce this chip, and is there any info about it online? I am not talking about the "leaked PDF" but at some forum or another? A link would be nice. I still am having a hard time believing that the 7457 exists anywhere except on paper.
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if we never see it, as MOT has probably scraped it. The current G4 has enough room to give the iMac an upgrade or two more before switching to the 970 (if Apple wants, they could go 970 sooner). The iBook could go G3 forever (didn't IBM announce a G3 with SIMD, and other stuff?). The PowerBook/PowerMac will get 970 from the next go.
So what does this mean? There is no need for the 7457? MOT knows this, and probably decide to scrap it after the paper came out. Plus, with MOT at work on the 85XX series, they have no need to do the 74XX series any longer. Future customers in the embedded arena would rather get a 85XX over any 7457 would be my guess.
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: kupan787 ]</p>
<strong>
Where did MOT announce this chip, and is there any info about it online? I am not talking about the "leaked PDF" but at some forum or another? A link would be nice. I still am having a hard time believing that the 7457 exists anywhere except on paper.
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if we never see it, as MOT has probably scraped it. The current G4 has enough room to give the iMac an upgrade or two more before switching to the 970 (if Apple wants, they could go 970 sooner). The iBook could go G3 forever (didn't IBM announce a G3 with SIMD, and other stuff?). The PowerBook/PowerMac will get 970 from the next go.
So what does this mean? There is no need for the 7457? MOT knows this, and probably decide to scrap it after the paper came out. Plus, with MOT at work on the 85XX series, they have no need to do the 74XX series any longer. Future customers in the embedded arena would rather get a 85XX over any 7457 would be my guess.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Moto has plenty of customers who use the G4 that would like a lower power, higher speed version. The 85xx has its uses, but it doesn't hold a candle to the G4's AltiVec unit and Moto's presentations on their respective vector units make that clear.
Taking the G4 to 0.13 micron SOI has been on the roadmap for a long time and its the next logical step, and a heck of a lot cheaper than developing a new core. As suggested above, its possible that issues with the 0.13 process will just cause them to leapfrog to the 0.09 process, but so much the better. That might explain the delay in getting this chip out.
<strong>
Where did MOT announce this chip, and is there any info about it online? I am not talking about the "leaked PDF" but at some forum or another? A link would be nice. I still am having a hard time believing that the 7457 exists anywhere except on paper.
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if we never see it, as MOT has probably scraped it. The current G4 has enough room to give the iMac an upgrade or two more before switching to the 970 (if Apple wants, they could go 970 sooner). The iBook could go G3 forever (didn't IBM announce a G3 with SIMD, and other stuff?). The PowerBook/PowerMac will get 970 from the next go.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=02VS0llCc5pzMPsvFLn1b23G5nChPn " target="_blank">March 2003 SNDF Dallas</a>
<strong>The IBM MDF announcement of the 970 said it would arrive at target frequencies of 1.4 - 1.8 GHz. When a manufacturer builds chips not all of them will run at the top clock rate so they typically sell a couple of speeds. Probably 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 GHz based on what was in the initial announcement. This is also IBM's conservative estimate that they are confident they can deliver at introduction... if things go well, and there are hints floating about that they are, we may see even faster chips at introduction -- 2 GHz certainly isn't out of reach.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I saw where the IBM presentation said speeds up to 1.8 GHz but where does it say that will be the initial speed? If you look at most roadmaps, the top speed listed is usually at least 2 generations away. Maybe I am just confusing the information given on a 'roadmap' with the type of announcement made by IBM last October but it does seem a possibility. That would be disappointing if the first machines to use it topped off at less than 1.8.
<strong>
I saw where the IBM presentation said speeds up to 1.8 GHz but where does it say that will be the initial speed? If you look at most roadmaps, the top speed listed is usually at least 2 generations away. Maybe I am just confusing the information given on a 'roadmap' with the type of announcement made by IBM last October but it does seem a possibility. That would be disappointing if the first machines to use it topped off at less than 1.8.</strong><hr></blockquote>
IBM hasn't released any roadmaps on the 9xx series of chips. Pretty much everything they said was referring to at release.
I think last year about this time Moto called Apple and said, "I cannot, I cannot, I cannot".
The Moto engine then trundled off to the roundhouse to rust.
From now on, it may be IBM or bust!
<strong>I saw where the IBM presentation said speeds up to 1.8 GHz but where does it say that will be the initial speed? If you look at most roadmaps, the top speed listed is usually at least 2 generations away. Maybe I am just confusing the information given on a 'roadmap' with the type of announcement made by IBM last October but it does seem a possibility. That would be disappointing if the first machines to use it topped off at less than 1.8.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The roadmap that is part of the MDF presentation seems pretty clear. There is a single icon for the 970 marked 1.4-1.8 GHz, just like there are single icons for the G3 series chips (and attached clock speed ranges). Also, its hard to predict eventual top speeds, so they usually don't try... they just put "1.4+ Ghz" or something like that.
<strong>I agree. The 970 is coming soon. Just look at apples hardware lineup. I feel they have skipped the 7457 cause the 970 will be coming so soon that the 7457 wouldn't be worth the extra expense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
your right about this option, i still got the Q3 timeframe for a ppc970 introduction in my mind. (and the experiences with the moto G4 in late 1999 and there after) maybe i got a little pessimistic about timeframes in the last couple of years.
<strong>I agree. The 970 is coming soon. Just look at apples hardware lineup. I feel they have skipped the 7457 cause the 970 will be coming so soon that the 7457 wouldn't be worth the extra expense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have a feeling they skipped the 7457 because it isn't actually released and they had no choice. The iMacs and laptops will receive them pretty soon after they are ready though.
<strong>I think last year about this time Moto called Apple and said, "I cannot, I cannot, I cannot".
The Moto engine then trundled off to the roundhouse to rust.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />