Antisemetism in Israel

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
In the Air Force no less.



They consider Israeli actions immoral and offensive. They are anti-Jew, sorry, anti-Israeli (got to use the new codeword!).











(i'm no expert in this, all those who think criticism of israel equates to antisemetism are welcome to help me out)

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 17
    aquafireaquafire Posts: 2,758member
    So harald..tell me how their refusal is " Antisemitic" ?



    Stirring the possum again \



    & when we "boil down" the media frenzy around this story it turns out that of the 27 signatories on the letter:



    with the exception of a few ( including Brig gen Yiftah Spector ( res ) Yom Kippur...)



    18 are retired " Desk pilots"

    :

    9 are on active " reserve " service......



    It turns out:.....



    ONLY 2 of the above being in any field

    position to fly over those bits of Palestine...



    Don't ya love the "beat ups "



    http://web.israelinsider.com
  • Reply 2 of 17
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    Isn't it wonderful that Israeli citizens feel so free that they can take such a stand and state it publicly. Too bad the same can't be said for the rest of the middle east.
  • Reply 3 of 17
    It's not wonderful if they get tried with treason for doing so.
  • Reply 4 of 17
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Aquafire

    http://web.israelinsider.com



    I didn't realise AppleInsider had branched out.



    I checked out the story as reported by this IsraelInsider site (love the cheery little tank icon for 'security' stories).



    Wow, those guys quoted are scarier than Bush. Every answer was a paraphrase of "Terrorist are evil and you are either with us or them". Nice.
  • Reply 5 of 17
    aquafireaquafire Posts: 2,758member
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by stupider...likeafox

    I didn't realise AppleInsider had branched out.





    Yep ...



    I had a chuckle to myself when I noted the little tank and the " Almost could have been Apple..err I mean Israelinsider " name...





    Maybe we could become an exemplar of the sort of forums they'd like to run on their page....
  • Reply 6 of 17
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Aquafire

    So harald..tell me how their refusal is " Antisemitic" ?



    Stirring the possum again \ [/url]




    I don't actually.



    There are those that would have us believe that anyone that critises Israeli policy re. Palsetinians is antisemitic. I was inviting them to say the same about members of the IDF who also dislike the killing of innocent civilians.



    (incorrect assertion removed)
  • Reply 7 of 17
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by stupider...likeafox

    I didn't realise AppleInsider had branched out.



    I checked out the story as reported by this IsraelInsider site (love the cheery little tank icon for 'security' stories).



    Wow, those guys quoted are scarier than Bush. Every answer was a paraphrase of "Terrorist are evil and you are either with us or them". Nice.




    AO is a pretty nice place compared to those forums.
  • Reply 8 of 17
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    Isn't it wonderful that Israeli citizens feel so free that they can take such a stand and state it publicly. Too bad the same can't be said for the rest of the middle east.



    So are these guys antisemitic Scott?



    If not, why not?
  • Reply 9 of 17
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Harald

    In the Air Force no less.



    They consider Israeli actions immoral and offensive. They are anti-Jew, sorry, anti-Israeli (got to use the new codeword!).





    No they are not. They disagreed with certain orders that they have been given. They love their country and their people I am sure. You fail in your attempt to rationalize any bigoted or any-jewish feelings harboured by by the anit-israel camp by trying to link their refusal to commit certain actions to general anti-semetic feelings.



    Anti-Israel people claim they don't hate Israel. But their arguements, when played out to the end, usually end up with no Israel.







    Quote:

    Originally posted by Harald



    (i'm no expert in this, all those who think criticism of israel equates to antisemetism are welcome to help me out)




    See any around here? I do see many, who hide old anti-semitism behind the PC anti-Israel agenda.
  • Reply 10 of 17
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    I am often called anitsemitic.



    The reason is given that I think the tactics of the IDF are often disgusting.



    Members of the IDF have refused to do some actions for the same reasons.



    But all of a sudden they are not antisemitic.
  • Reply 11 of 17
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Harald

    I am often called anitsemitic.



    The reason is given that I think the tactics of the IDF are often disgusting.



    Members of the IDF have refused to do some actions for the same reasons.



    But all of a sudden they are not antisemitic.




    If one claims to be anti-Israel, not just Israeli policy, but against the state itself, then whether one admits it or not, one could be considered anti-semetic.



    Some here openly state that they hate Israel, for no other reason that it shouldn't have been created. They don't seem to harbour the same ill will or launch the same rabid attacks against all the other 'created' states in the region, even those with far worse human rights records. So, one must wonder naturally, what drives the hatred of israel in these cases...when they also use the same rehash anti-semetic arguements that have been around for centuries, the pieces seem to line up and fit.



    Others, like youself, I think, don't really hate Jews and maybe not even Israel. But, it still remains that the type of rabid attacks against Israel and Israeli poilicy are made only against Israel. I don't see thread after thread opened about Iranian abuses, Syrian attrocities, or Saudi racism. Even when Israel is attacked and children are butchered on buses, all I see are conditional condemnations of the attacks..like "well that was horrible, but you know that had it coming".



    The IDF members who refused, refused not based on any anti-israel feelings or anti-semetic leanings. The didn't refuse based on a belief that Israel shouldn't defend herself. The refused because the disagreed with a specific order they were given.



    If others, outside, condemn each and every Israel action, regardless of reason or consequence, then yes, sometimes anti-semitism is going to look like a possible reason. No matter what Israel does they are comdemned. They respond to terror attacks, they are condemned. They try to arrest bombed before they kill, they are condemned. they try to block bombers with a wall they never wanted, they are condemned. They try and move toward peace and the are still condemned. they remove settlements and stop assasination stricks and they are still condemned. Yet, not a word or condemnation about the actions taken by the other side.



    Most times it seems the Anti-Israel parties will not be happy till Israel is gone. Some are honest about it and their open hatred towards the very state of israel. Some are not and hide behide rhetoric about israel's actions, when Israel's actions are obviously irrelevant to their feelings. If nothing Israel ever does is good enough, then their only solution, though unspoken, is the removal of the jews from israel.
  • Reply 12 of 17
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Harald

    I am often called anitsemitic.



    Me too.
  • Reply 13 of 17
    moogsmoogs Posts: 4,296member
    I'm confused Harald; do you or do you not believe these men are antisemitic? If you DO (hard to determine based on your question to Scott), how can you (or anyone for that matter) possibly draw that conclusion?



    We could perhaps label them as "traitors" in a strict, military sense. But what about their actions says to (anyone here, not just Harald) that they hate Jews? Even in the "anti-Zionist" thread, I don't think there's any debate that "antisemitic" implies hatred or vervent dislike of Jews. Possibly other groups as well, if you use the more technical definition of "semite".



    The point is, after reading through that article, I didn't see anything that resembled hatred of Jews or Israelis. They simply do not agree with and refuse to comply with the military policies of their country. Takes balls if you ask me. Big ones. Easy for me to say I dislike their military tactics; I'm not the one pulling the trigger!



    Quote:

    One of the rebel pilots told the Yediot Ahronot newspaper that he felt like he had "come out against his family".



    "I was proud to belong to the organisation called the Israel Air Force, and today I am ashamed," said the pilot, a Blackhawk helicopter captain named Alon.



    "This is an organisation (emphasis mine) that carries out actions that in my eyes are immoral and patently illegal.



    Given the above, I don't see how a person could think these guys are anything but "conscientious objector" types. Not even traitors really, let alone antisemitic.
  • Reply 14 of 17
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Moogs

    I'm confused Harald; do you or do you not believe these men are antisemitic? I



    I do not think they are anti semitic. I think they are brave.



    I was quoting a Scott-line ('anti jew, sorry Israel') and trying to point out that despising Israeli policy does not make not you antisemitic.



    Had one of those pilots posted here his views on the action (using only the words on their statement) but leaving out the fact they were IDF, they would have been called a jew-hater. This pisses me off.
  • Reply 15 of 17
    moogsmoogs Posts: 4,296member
    Very well then.



    I urge you to proceed with caution. It is a dangerous man who can read such an article, and subsequently deduce the men being written about are antisemitic.



  • Reply 16 of 17
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Moogs

    It is a dangerous man who can read such an article, and subsequently deduce the men being written about are antisemitic.



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