Liberalism, and the Democratic Party, have become so sensitized to race issues, they?ve abandoned any pretense of defending the common man (at least if he?s white and lives in the south) AND the MERE MENTION of that class by name (formerly democratic supporters) brings hysteria and apoplexy from Democratic Party elites and leaders.
Dean is right, the party of FDR used to make common cause for all working people; now this class, including white working classes outside the south, see that their values and future is with the middle and upper class Republicans. Having driven them from the party with elitist attitudes, the San Francisco democrats are ?shocked? that they vote in mass Republican (as do many union members)?
As I say, it delights us Republicans to see such democratic bigotry ? and has made our job so much easier, especially on the national level.
The answer to your question requires too sophisticated a response for me to answer. I think they still 'defend the common man' better than Republicans despite looking very much like them in recent years. But a new progressive wing needs to challenge the conservative "DNC" wing of the party. I don't know. That's a really good question. But I think Dean is part of the solution. (not for being progressive: he's not. but for challenging the dormant democratic leadership establishment.)
And again, as a white liberal southerner who made a considered decision to move elsewhere, I think making assumptions about the politics of confederate flag displaying pick-up driving southerners is perilous, at best. I know the rest of the country has a pretty firm idea of the "Dukes of Hazard/Deliverance/George Wallace" south, but trust me, it ain't that cut and dried. I have friends who feel a real loyality to the idea of southern culture while simultaneously holding liberal to progressive views on most topics.
And I agree, from the other side of the fence, with what Max has been saying: the democratic party needs to conect with average working class voters, dare I say it, white voters, by explaining how their interests and the interests of other disenfranchised groups are connected by issues like access to health care, fair taxation, education, corporate governance, etc.
I'd have to hear more from Dean to know quite what he means, but if he means something like the above, and isn't just signaling his willingness to pander, then he's got a point.
Dean isn't going to get white votes in the south. Even southerners like Clinton and Gore don't get white votes in the south. Republicans have a lock on white males, especially in the south. The only demographic that votes Republican nationwide are white males. Every other demographic goes Democratic - blacks, hispanics, asians, women. White males vote 70% Republican in the south. Flag issue or no, they aren't going for Dean.
Because he does what Hitler did... try to fan flames of anger in angry less sophisticated working class white trash males.
I have no respect for Dean. Never will.
Fellowship
"Less sophisticated white trash males"? "Flames of anger"?
How about: "working class whites", and "enlightened self interest". The south was solidly democratic until Nixon figured out that race baiting could serve as a wedge issue. One of the jobs of any Democratic candidate is to try to get past the "culture wars" rhetoric so cynically used by the right and talk to all working class voters about the screw job their getting at the hands of the corporate state.
I'm not entirely sure that any of the candidates are up to it, but I'll take what I can get.
Because he does what Hitler did... try to fan flames of anger in angry less sophisticated working class white trash males.
I have no respect for Dean. Never will.
Fellowship
You've reached new depths of unsophistication with that post, Fellowship. I'm not really sure what the hell you're talking about this time. Did we read the same article?
You've reached new depths of unsophistication with that post, Fellowship. I'm not really sure what the hell you're talking about this time. Did we read the same article?
Dean:
Quote:
At that event, Dean received a rousing ovation from the crowd when he said, "White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us, and not [Republicans], because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
That insults me. I do not like Dean. Never have. Never will.
That insults me. I do not like Dean. Never have. Never will.
Fellowship [/B]
Well, they do need health care and better schools. Dean obviously believes that, as president, he'll do a better job of delivering those things. I honestly don't see how he could do much worse, and I don't see why that would insult you.
And if you don't care for divisive tactics, what in the world are you doing in the Republican party? Hint: rhymes with Willie Horton.
Well, they do need health care and better schools. Dean obviously believes that, as president, he'll do a better job of delivering those things. I honestly don't see how he could do much worse, and I don't see why that would insult you.
And if you don't care for divisive tactics, what in the world are you doing in the Republican party? Hint: rhymes with Willie Horton.
I am not "in" the Republican party nor will I vote in the next election. I am just not happy with any choice as if we have one.
That better have been a facetious thread title.... if not:
Trumptman, you are no better than Scott or SDW (at their most intellectually dishonest and misleading):
1). Dean did not say "Give me guns and Confederate flags." Dean said "White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us, and not [Republicans], because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too." He could have said 'racists, polygamists, born-again Christians, pedophiles, or people who like to pick fights on the internet' should vote with Democrats because the party will provide them with health insurance and better schools. That means the need for health insurance and better schools outweighs whatever narrow, exclusive ideology practiced by gun-toting, confederate flag-waving bigots.
Anyway, Dean is walking a thin line here between appealing to people of questionable morality, ethics, and ideology and endorsing the morality, ethics, and ideology of those people. Dean is effectively saying: "Listen, I believe the need for better schools and health insurance for everyone outweighs some other significant differences of opinions." The problem here, of course, is how far Dean will go in condemning those differences of opinions that are pretty much fundamentally opposed his own (and likewise)
Does he embrace it, does he not? I don't think so. I'm uncomfortable with the whole thing just because people will react like this. It doesn't seem like a good sound byte to me- only good as part of a well-articulated long form speech. Like Lieberman said, "It is irresponsible and reckless to loosely talk about one of the most divisive, hurtful symbols in American history." You have to be careful.
You are really quite funny. Last time I checked, I'm not allowed to post a paragraph or so as a thread title. I linked to what he said and accurately portrayed it in my initial post. As usual you don't like the content so in typical Shawn fashion, you attack the poster/source/agenda/etc.
Dean is attempting a "Southern strategy." He is attempting to win back Southern male, white voters and telling them they don't have to leave any racist or oppressive baggage they may have at the door to join his big tent. Call it what it is and address the topic instead of ignoring the facts you don't like and tossing dust into the air.
You are really quite funny. Last time I checked, I'm not allowed to post a paragraph or so as a thread title. I linked to what he said and accurately portrayed it in my initial post. As usual you don't like the content so in typical Shawn fashion, you attack the poster/source/agenda/etc.
Dean is attempting a "Southern strategy." He is attempting to win back Southern male, white voters and telling them they don't have to leave any racist or oppressive baggage they may have at the door to join his big tent. Call it what it is and address the topic instead of ignoring the facts you don't like and tossing dust into the air.
Nick
Try responding to my points next time if you're going to quote me.
Comments
Originally posted by MaxParrish
Liberalism, and the Democratic Party, have become so sensitized to race issues, they?ve abandoned any pretense of defending the common man (at least if he?s white and lives in the south) AND the MERE MENTION of that class by name (formerly democratic supporters) brings hysteria and apoplexy from Democratic Party elites and leaders.
Dean is right, the party of FDR used to make common cause for all working people; now this class, including white working classes outside the south, see that their values and future is with the middle and upper class Republicans. Having driven them from the party with elitist attitudes, the San Francisco democrats are ?shocked? that they vote in mass Republican (as do many union members)?
As I say, it delights us Republicans to see such democratic bigotry ? and has made our job so much easier, especially on the national level.
The answer to your question requires too sophisticated a response for me to answer. I think they still 'defend the common man' better than Republicans despite looking very much like them in recent years. But a new progressive wing needs to challenge the conservative "DNC" wing of the party. I don't know. That's a really good question. But I think Dean is part of the solution. (not for being progressive: he's not. but for challenging the dormant democratic leadership establishment.)
And I agree, from the other side of the fence, with what Max has been saying: the democratic party needs to conect with average working class voters, dare I say it, white voters, by explaining how their interests and the interests of other disenfranchised groups are connected by issues like access to health care, fair taxation, education, corporate governance, etc.
I'd have to hear more from Dean to know quite what he means, but if he means something like the above, and isn't just signaling his willingness to pander, then he's got a point.
Call me crazy...
Dean is not quality.
Fellows
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Dean insults me.
Dean is not quality.
Fellows
How come?
Originally posted by addabox
How come?
Because he does what Hitler did... try to fan flames of anger in angry less sophisticated working class white trash males.
I have no respect for Dean. Never will.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Because he does what Hitler did... try to fan flames of anger in angry less sophisticated working class white trash males.
Woah
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Because he does what Hitler did... try to fan flames of anger in angry less sophisticated working class white trash males.
I have no respect for Dean. Never will.
Fellowship
"Less sophisticated white trash males"? "Flames of anger"?
How about: "working class whites", and "enlightened self interest". The south was solidly democratic until Nixon figured out that race baiting could serve as a wedge issue. One of the jobs of any Democratic candidate is to try to get past the "culture wars" rhetoric so cynically used by the right and talk to all working class voters about the screw job their getting at the hands of the corporate state.
I'm not entirely sure that any of the candidates are up to it, but I'll take what I can get.
Oh, and "what Hitler did'? Dude! Come on!
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Because he does what Hitler did... try to fan flames of anger in angry less sophisticated working class white trash males.
I have no respect for Dean. Never will.
Fellowship
"Love Peace Grace" as a byline and "church" as a part of a user ID ?
Your not only helpful to me as a Republican, but confirm why I'm an atheist...looney tunes eh?
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Because he does what Hitler did... try to fan flames of anger in angry less sophisticated working class white trash males.
I have no respect for Dean. Never will.
Fellowship
You've reached new depths of unsophistication with that post, Fellowship. I'm not really sure what the hell you're talking about this time. Did we read the same article?
Originally posted by ShawnJ
You've reached new depths of unsophistication with that post, Fellowship. I'm not really sure what the hell you're talking about this time. Did we read the same article?
Dean:
At that event, Dean received a rousing ovation from the crowd when he said, "White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us, and not [Republicans], because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
That insults me. I do not like Dean. Never have. Never will.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Dean:
That insults me. I do not like Dean. Never have. Never will.
Fellowship [/B]
Well, they do need health care and better schools. Dean obviously believes that, as president, he'll do a better job of delivering those things. I honestly don't see how he could do much worse, and I don't see why that would insult you.
And if you don't care for divisive tactics, what in the world are you doing in the Republican party? Hint: rhymes with Willie Horton.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Dean:
That insults me. I do not like Dean. Never have. Never will.
Fellowship [/B]
Do you think audiences are applauding in support of racism or in support of universal health care and better schools?
Get real, Fellowship.
Originally posted by addabox
Well, they do need health care and better schools. Dean obviously believes that, as president, he'll do a better job of delivering those things. I honestly don't see how he could do much worse, and I don't see why that would insult you.
And if you don't care for divisive tactics, what in the world are you doing in the Republican party? Hint: rhymes with Willie Horton.
I am not "in" the Republican party nor will I vote in the next election. I am just not happy with any choice as if we have one.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I am not "in" the Republican party nor will I vote in the next election. I am just not happy with any choice as if we have one.
Fellowship
Fair enough. I apologize for mischaracterizing your affiliation.
Originally posted by trumptman
... and his current inability to generate minority support, it looks pretty bad.
...
I think Dean got the endorsement of Jess Jackson Jr.
Originally posted by addabox
Fair enough. I apologize for mischaracterizing your affiliation.
No need to apologize, I respect you and your imput.
Fellowship
Originally posted by ShawnJ
That better have been a facetious thread title.... if not:
Trumptman, you are no better than Scott or SDW (at their most intellectually dishonest and misleading):
1). Dean did not say "Give me guns and Confederate flags." Dean said "White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us, and not [Republicans], because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too." He could have said 'racists, polygamists, born-again Christians, pedophiles, or people who like to pick fights on the internet' should vote with Democrats because the party will provide them with health insurance and better schools. That means the need for health insurance and better schools outweighs whatever narrow, exclusive ideology practiced by gun-toting, confederate flag-waving bigots.
Anyway, Dean is walking a thin line here between appealing to people of questionable morality, ethics, and ideology and endorsing the morality, ethics, and ideology of those people. Dean is effectively saying: "Listen, I believe the need for better schools and health insurance for everyone outweighs some other significant differences of opinions." The problem here, of course, is how far Dean will go in condemning those differences of opinions that are pretty much fundamentally opposed his own (and likewise)
Does he embrace it, does he not? I don't think so. I'm uncomfortable with the whole thing just because people will react like this. It doesn't seem like a good sound byte to me- only good as part of a well-articulated long form speech. Like Lieberman said, "It is irresponsible and reckless to loosely talk about one of the most divisive, hurtful symbols in American history." You have to be careful.
You are really quite funny. Last time I checked, I'm not allowed to post a paragraph or so as a thread title. I linked to what he said and accurately portrayed it in my initial post. As usual you don't like the content so in typical Shawn fashion, you attack the poster/source/agenda/etc.
Dean is attempting a "Southern strategy." He is attempting to win back Southern male, white voters and telling them they don't have to leave any racist or oppressive baggage they may have at the door to join his big tent. Call it what it is and address the topic instead of ignoring the facts you don't like and tossing dust into the air.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
You are really quite funny. Last time I checked, I'm not allowed to post a paragraph or so as a thread title. I linked to what he said and accurately portrayed it in my initial post. As usual you don't like the content so in typical Shawn fashion, you attack the poster/source/agenda/etc.
Dean is attempting a "Southern strategy." He is attempting to win back Southern male, white voters and telling them they don't have to leave any racist or oppressive baggage they may have at the door to join his big tent. Call it what it is and address the topic instead of ignoring the facts you don't like and tossing dust into the air.
Nick
Try responding to my points next time if you're going to quote me.