Xserver for (really) small business?...guidance needed
Hello Faithful:
As you have yet to let me down, I thought it time to go back to the well of knowledge for some much needed advice.
Your guidance in the past has led me to many sound Apple purchases (current 17" PB included) and I am now in charge of buying a server / managing technology for our office. As a Mac lover, Xserve seems the right approach.
I need a machine to play nice with 5 Windoze machines, several network printers and my Mac(s). Also, it may host our website and possibly provide VPN if possible. More than likely, I will have it managed remotely (third party).
Questions: Is this within the characteristics of the Xserve? One processor or two? Enclosure, power and ventilation issues? Can we setup encrypted communication with our European home office server?
Should I hire someone to do this or is it manageable?
Many thanks for taking the time to answer this and all of the other information you all put out on this forum..it helps more than you know!
Cog
As you have yet to let me down, I thought it time to go back to the well of knowledge for some much needed advice.
Your guidance in the past has led me to many sound Apple purchases (current 17" PB included) and I am now in charge of buying a server / managing technology for our office. As a Mac lover, Xserve seems the right approach.
I need a machine to play nice with 5 Windoze machines, several network printers and my Mac(s). Also, it may host our website and possibly provide VPN if possible. More than likely, I will have it managed remotely (third party).
Questions: Is this within the characteristics of the Xserve? One processor or two? Enclosure, power and ventilation issues? Can we setup encrypted communication with our European home office server?
Should I hire someone to do this or is it manageable?
Many thanks for taking the time to answer this and all of the other information you all put out on this forum..it helps more than you know!
Cog
Comments
I'll let more adept sysadmins answer the rest of your questions.
Originally posted by Kesh
Unless you absolutely need the rackmount format, a standard G5 tower + MacOS X Server is probably a more practical bet.
I'll let more adept sysadmins answer the rest of your questions.
Thanks Kesh. I just assumed a true server hardware solution the better solution. I realize OS X server would run on a desktop but is it as realiable?
thanks for the input.
cog
If your office and work is important enough that you need hot-swappable drives, rack-mounting capabilities, and redundant components, and if you budget allows, then get the Xserve. If a nightly backup to an external drive via Retrospect of your important data is sufficient enough, then save a whole lotta money and just load up a standard Powermac with OS X server.
As for the capabilities of OS X Server, I don't have enough experience with it to answer those questions, but I would expect OS X server to be able to handle all of those things. Hopefully someone else will be able to help you better than I. Good luck!
I would buy the Xserve. Either model. Or even a discounted G4 version, if you can find one.
Why?
Mac OS X Server software is $499 for 10-user license and $999 for unlimited-user license. It comes WITH the Xserve as part of the cost.
True, all the things you want can be done with OS X client, but Server (especially Panther Server) lets the user do most all of it via GUI, not by command line.
If you are interested in limiting who has access to what on the server, the Xserve is a better way to go.
If you are interested in creating a multi-level backup system that may include back ups to Hard Drives on a daily basis and to DVD/CD/Tape less often, Go with the Xserve.
Want realiability? Let the Xserve mirror your drives (X client will also do this)
Want speed? the Xserve can come with TWO gigabit ethernet ports, each of which can feed your network or can be assigned to different networks.
Want to run you own mail server and save lots of dough and headaches? Mac OS X Server - which is part of the Xserve. I use an add-on called Communigate for mail, but Server comes with a nice one as well.
Want to do web work and test it on a live system that serves it? Go with the Xserve.
Want a system that you can have repair parts in-house, waiting to be used by end-users? Xserve.
Want "free" Server software upgrades for up to three years? Server Maintenance Plan ($999) (1/3 less than buying new 10-user licenses every year; 2/3 less than buying unlimited licenses every year) NO you don't HAVE to buy licenses every year, but I think the improvements will make you WANT to.
Want on-site service in most metro areas from Apple techs, sometimes within a couple of hours? Only available for the Xserve. Phone support, too.
Yes, you can do simple file sharing with OS X Client, or even "Complex" sharing if you are into using WebDAV and mucking around with .conf files. But imagine a "lowly" secretary being able to manage the server, if you so desire. Want to take a vacation? IF there's trouble, you can talk her through it or EVEN do it yourself remotely by GUI or SSH.
The Xserve can grow with your business, even providing services that maybe you don't know you want or need.
Group calendaring, shared work areas, remote user mounts, webmail, and stuff I can't recall.
AND, you won't be paying per-user licenses for users, email accounts, etc, like Windows Servers.
Like I said, Xserve is the way to go.
Of course, you must understand that they msut be kept in a room or closet without people - loud as a vacuum cleaner. No, you don't HAVE to have a rack, but it's nice.
Just my rant.
Originally posted by jccbin
Cog,
Just my rant.
Cory and JCCBIN:
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. We are running mission critical data around on our network (medical company) so it seems from a hardware standpoint that xServe is the right approach.
JCCBIN, would you say from a cost/ benefit perspective, using all of the benefits you outlined, that xServe over a few years (including reliability in the formula) is more cost effective than simply using a desktop PMac? Also, what about encryption, VPN, etc. Does that fall within the capabilities of the xServe?
Thank you again for your thoughtful replies...this helps more than you know.
Cog
Call apple, they want to get into businesses, let them send someone to talk to you.
Have their people work for you, they know that stuff.
From my personal experience, it's always better idea to go with rack mounted hardware, once you start buying towers, then as your company grows, you end up using more towers, then comes a point when it would be good to have it all mounted in a rack or cabinet, with proper cooling, wire management, etc. Then it will be hard for you to replace all these boxes all at once. It's always a good idea to start right.
I need a machine to play nice with 5 Windoze machines
In what sense? Do you have any domains?
As far as VPN goes, IMO it's better to with dedicated VPN appliance, then you have independent solution, you can change your servers, VPN works, xServe goes down, VPN works.
If your xServe will be acting as file server, print server, and not doing any intense cpu work, don't bother with newest greatest hardware, you won't even be utilizing it.
Call apple, let them answer all your questions.
HTH
Originally posted by piwozniak
Cog,
Call apple, they want to get into businesses, let them send someone to talk to you.
Call apple, let them answer all your questions.
HTH
HTH:
I followed your advice on the day of your post...so far not response from Apple...I guess they are not THAT anxious to get into business. Poor response to potential customers may be an indication to how I would be treated when I become a xServe owner...I hope not...and to be fair, my previous experience with Apple has been amazing (customer service, repair, etc.).
cog
The Xserve is a great machine but a standard tower is a better choice for most businesses. The only time I suggest otherwise is when a company expects to be running a considerable ammount of other rack mount gear. Otherwise, the form factor and corresponding price of the Xserve isn't justified.
A tower and a copy of OS X server will likely be easier to work with and will be MUCH cheaper. The Xserve does provide more hardware redundancy/diagnostics. Yet this piece of mind and security is expensive when considered along side other possible infrastructure improvements.
Originally posted by dfiler
I would suggest a tower.
A tower and a copy of OS X server will likely be easier to work with and will be MUCH cheaper.
Wow! Thank you dflier! The cost is certainly an issue as is the rack mount..the cost and placement alone would make using the Xserve difficult. I did not know that a tower could be / is as dependable as a server. I simply assumed that the hardware is more suited to the server functions (other than the obvious form factor).
Thanks for the information...I'll have to look much harder at the G5 towers.
Cog
Originally posted by Cog
Hello Faithful:
As you have yet to let me down, I thought it time to go back to the well of knowledge for some much needed advice.
Your guidance in the past has led me to many sound Apple purchases (current 17" PB included) and I am now in charge of buying a server / managing technology for our office. As a Mac lover, Xserve seems the right approach.
I need a machine to play nice with 5 Windoze machines, several network printers and my Mac(s). Also, it may host our website and possibly provide VPN if possible. More than likely, I will have it managed remotely (third party).
Questions: Is this within the characteristics of the Xserve? One processor or two? Enclosure, power and ventilation issues? Can we setup encrypted communication with our European home office server?
Should I hire someone to do this or is it manageable?
Many thanks for taking the time to answer this and all of the other information you all put out on this forum..it helps more than you know!
Cog
You don't even need a G5, really. Get a refurb (or new, if you can still find it, and I think you can) dual G4 and be happy. Save yourself a couple of grand.
We have over 6 as Servers and they are nearly as dependable as an XServe. The secret of having a dependable server is don't use it to run a mission critical app and then start burning CD's on it or use it as a spare desktop.
Dobby.
Xserve gives you easy access to HDs, management tools, and all that stuff you need in a ....server.
It all depends what are plan to run on it.
I'm sorry to hear that apple didn't bother to follow up with you.
So, if you go 3rd party, you will spend a lot for a little. If you do it in-house there will be a lot of setup hours, but once it gets going it pretty much takes care of itself. But if you do go in-house, then please do so after taking some instruction.
Training
These classes are short and "expensive" but you will make out like a bandit doing the setup and admining in-house rather than via 3rd party after a year.
But you can do all of the things you want to with Panther Server. And much more. Hardware wise, I've had much better luck with server grade systems than desktops playing server. My experience. But the biggest thing is that Apple takes xServe hardware failures much more seriously than desktops, which could save you a lot of down time should something happen. Though the piece of mind costs more, it tends to be worth even more.
cheers and good luck-
Right now, I got an old Gateway 500mhz P3 running Windows Adv. Server serving about 450 systems with DHCP, DNS, WINS, AD, LDAP, and File and Print services for a Private High School.
This is gonna get me flamed but in my view if the majority of your desktops are Windows, run a Windows Server, and User a hardware fire wall. As long as you keep stuff updated and maintained you won't really have downtime. Half the stuff you hear when windows boxes crash is becuase of poor network administration.
Alternatively the best solution is Linux, but again if your primarily having windows clients, run windows. It'll be easier on you. And the hardware is cheaper.
Originally posted by scavanger
I assume that I'll get flamed but I don't care. I set up small business networks for a living. For this kind of task I would either use a Custom Linux install, or Windows. Since you will be working with more Windows boxes then Macs, it would make it much easier. Windows server setup's are reasonably easy, and if for some reason you can do it, you really shouldn't be in charge of something like this.
Right now, I got an old Gateway 500mhz P3 running Windows Adv. Server serving about 450 systems with DHCP, DNS, WINS, AD, LDAP, and File and Print services for a Private High School.
This is gonna get me flamed but in my view if the majority of your desktops are Windows, run a Windows Server, and User a hardware fire wall. As long as you keep stuff updated and maintained you won't really have downtime. Half the stuff you hear when windows boxes crash is becuase of poor network administration.
Alternatively the best solution is Linux, but again if your primarily having windows clients, run windows. It'll be easier on you. And the hardware is cheaper.
How much would you save on licensing alone if you would use OS X server ?
It all depends what you need, and how critical it is. If your server goes down, all these services are unavailable to the clients, in your case it may be OK. In my case that would mean people sitting around doing nothing. Try and explain to the president of the company why all these guys are not doing their work, while being paid for it? How fast can you get it repaired?
And by saying that hardware is cheaper you mean standard desktop PC right. you're not talking about server machine, with on-site warranty service, etc... right?
Evaluate your needs and get the gear that will do the job. From my perspective, if you start building your server room based on desktops, you will regret it later, when you'll have 10 of those sitting on the shelves, instead of them being enclosed in a rack with rack-mountable ups, kvm switch etc.... You don't just buy something for now, think how will it work 2 years down the road...
How about maintenance cost? Windows boxes always need your attention, there's always something to do there, personally i don't like that. On my AS/400 all i have to do is to load patches twice a year, and schedule power down/up. I never touch them otherwise. All that technology should work for you, and not the other way around. Realistically, how many updates are there for windows, and how many of them require reboot? What do you do? Do you reboot during the day or do you stay after hours? But then your systems are vulnerable until rebooted.. ? IMO, there's nothing worse than being locked with MS. I have to maintain Linux servers (web server, and ICC), AS/400s, (Domino, and ERP) and Windows (file/print/faxing/network services), most of my time i spend on Windows, to keep it current.
Guy who worked here before me was all windows... since he didn't know anything else now, i'm stuck with that for next few years, but when there will be a time to upgrade i'll try to stay as far from WIN as possible.
just my $0.02
-Apple has yet to contact me concerning my business needs. Spent the 5 minutes on the web filling out the form.....zip for my efforts.
-Setup meetings with a couple of local network companies specializing in Mac...results to come later. One is recommending the low-cost G4 desktop approach, the other an older Xserve (due to OS X server being included). We shall see...the jury is out.
With respect to the Windows suggestion, the very reason I am going with Apple is Windows is a black hole...I, with my very limited knowledge of PCs and networks, am the local guru in the office. I am fixing something, reinstalling something, troubleshooting something EVERY DAY! The Windows machines (all Dells) are constant trouble...nothing easy about managing simple desktops running simple Office programs. In contrast, my Mac (and the three at home) run without issue. I have a 4 year old G3 at home that is up for months at a time (OS X) without issue. This track record makes the decision to put in a local server an easy one.
From this discussion, I am moving away from hosting the website on our box, including mail. I do still require VPN to share files with out UK offices so more digging to come.
Thank you all for your guidance. You have given me lots to think about. I'll keep you posted.
Cog
Why would you not host your website in-house? Is there a bandwidth issue or you just don't feel confident? It will save you some $$, maybe not too much, but still.. As far as e-mail hosting, there's simple mail or something like that in OS X, but i never had a chance to play with that.
Originally posted by piwozniak
Cog, hehe, i tried to used that form as well, i guess it goes straight to trash somewhere, call them up!
Why would you not host your website in-house? Is there a bandwidth issue or you just don't feel confident? It will save you some $$, maybe not too much, but still.. As far as e-mail hosting, there's simple mail or something like that in OS X, but i never had a chance to play with that.
piwozniak:
Yep...some fear...that my meager technological abilities would be overcome by the hosting...also, the email issue- I have heard that the spammers are quite agressive at hacking into mail servers to set up a spam mailer...again, I am still collecting data on this and the other issues I identified...I would love to put it all in house, file server, web and email, etc.
If you have experience with hosting and mail servers, what are your thoughts? I know I can have it all remotely managed for a small monthly fee...at this point, I am wide-open to suggestions.
Cog
piwozniak
For web we use apache running on linux box, with backup copy sitting on AS/400 which also can run apache.
As for e-mail we have it running on Domino (IBM's software) which also runs on AS/400.
Hosting e-mail in-house has many advantages, for one you control how any mailboxes you have, and what their size is. If you need an additional e-mail address you can make it happen in 10 minutes. You can back it all up and archive it, you can't really do that with your ISP's accounts.
It's a bit of a pain to set it up... First you need to know that your system will work, because there's nothing like monday mornings when e-mail is down and you have all these people on your back asking when they can receive their junk mails... :-), plus you will have to change your MX record so it goes to you and not your provider.
And of course you'll need to have static IP, but i guess you have that already.
Additionally you will have to consider spam and virus protection.
What i have done is to put up virus scan soft on my internet gateway box, this way all incoming and outgoing traffic is checked, and cleaned, so i don't have to worry about viruses. Trend micro makes good product, and i found them more responsive, and cheaper than Symantec.
As far as spam goes, i don't have a solution for that yet, i'm looking into it myself. I need something what will work with Domino and so far all i found starts from $5000, for 100 clients.
There are advantages and disadvantages to any implementation.
Don't try to do it all in one shot. Start with your original goal, of file/print server. Once you have it all working and proven move on to next task.
little steps at a time :-)
edit: forgot to mention, u don't have to be too concerned with your e-mail server becoming spam forwarding one. Usually you can set up rules , for example to not accept any e-mails not addressed to your domain(s), you'll still receive junk, but you won't be forwarding anything outside.
yet another edit: Read this:
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