Across the board G5 desktop transition?
http://macosxrumors.com/
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Follow-up on the G5 production : The year of the G5?
At the end of August I had posted a rumour that IBM was going use 0.06 process for its PowerPC 970 production by late 2003. My (known to be sure) source admited that he was a bit too optimistic about this information which was based on "very excited" sales IBM sources. IBM, indeed, started testing 0.06 process before the end of 2003 but had actually never intended to start mass production of such processors before late 2004!
However, there is another bit of interesting information in my later reports: according to reliable sources, Apple has ordered more than 500,000 0.09 G5 processors from IBM this quarter and it plans to order even more units per quarter throughout the year.
An Apple source confirming this report, added that we can expect Apple to get rid of the G4 processor sooner than expected. Another part of Apple's line of computers will switch to the G5 by next quarter and the whole line could be G5 based by early to mid 2005.
I think we can suppose that new PowerMac's and a new iMac will be released soon and will both be based upon the new PowerPC 970FX. Some rumour sites have reported imminent releases of either of these products and my sources tend to confirm this.
Another source pointed out that this move is supposed to reduce production costs of G5-based Macs and will even allow Apple to lower the pricing of it's products without having to reduce it's margins.
Several sites reported something big is coming as soon as on Monday. if it's true what's coming will probably be G5 based. Frankly I could not have any very sure information about that, but some reports have indicated Apple would release a 20th anniversary Mac or a new G5-based iMac with a special design soon. Anyway, I'm sure Apple will improve a lot the performance of its products during the year and I can't wait to see what my sources have missed
Follow-up on the G5 production : The year of the G5?
At the end of August I had posted a rumour that IBM was going use 0.06 process for its PowerPC 970 production by late 2003. My (known to be sure) source admited that he was a bit too optimistic about this information which was based on "very excited" sales IBM sources. IBM, indeed, started testing 0.06 process before the end of 2003 but had actually never intended to start mass production of such processors before late 2004!
However, there is another bit of interesting information in my later reports: according to reliable sources, Apple has ordered more than 500,000 0.09 G5 processors from IBM this quarter and it plans to order even more units per quarter throughout the year.
An Apple source confirming this report, added that we can expect Apple to get rid of the G4 processor sooner than expected. Another part of Apple's line of computers will switch to the G5 by next quarter and the whole line could be G5 based by early to mid 2005.
I think we can suppose that new PowerMac's and a new iMac will be released soon and will both be based upon the new PowerPC 970FX. Some rumour sites have reported imminent releases of either of these products and my sources tend to confirm this.
Another source pointed out that this move is supposed to reduce production costs of G5-based Macs and will even allow Apple to lower the pricing of it's products without having to reduce it's margins.
Several sites reported something big is coming as soon as on Monday. if it's true what's coming will probably be G5 based. Frankly I could not have any very sure information about that, but some reports have indicated Apple would release a 20th anniversary Mac or a new G5-based iMac with a special design soon. Anyway, I'm sure Apple will improve a lot the performance of its products during the year and I can't wait to see what my sources have missed
Comments
what I can't understand is why they would introduce their pro (say: "beeeeeeefcaaaaaaake") chip in a consumer desktop within 6 months of its introduction in the pro machines. That to me just sounds plain stupid marketing wise. The PMG5 hasn't even had it's first revision yet !
I still think they'll introduce a new IBM chip for the consumers to bridge the gap between MOT G4s and IBM G5s. Like that G3 kinda chip I heard things about to which they added altivec. Hell they can even keep calling it the G4 and just finally have it scale from 1.4 -2.2 or something.
that would help. problem solved, call it G4+ for all I care.
from my perspective, the only reason why they'd introduce a G5 into the consumer models is if the PMG6 release was just around the corner.....
the difference between pro and consumer models can be (like on the pc side) expansion and speed (pro getting fastest G5 chips, consumer getting slower G5 chips) and dual processors for the pro models while only single processors for the consumer models...
if apple wants to increase market share (or hold on to market share) it must offer attractive computers for all markets (and by attractive i mean both attractive in design and attractive in specs)...
g
Today we dont have the clones, and there is no garuntee of third party box's coming to market. IBM only has one anounced model for the 970 so far. Basically this is an Apple chip.
It is probably better for Apple to push development of the next generation chip than to split their efforts on two chips. If a market for the 970 emerges outside of Apple's and IBM's offerings, or IBM is successfull enough with their 970 servers and see's an intereset in mobile 970's then we may see a dual chip strategy again. But for now a relatively quick transition to a new chip, coupled with improved manufacturing and process shirinkage will probably suite Apple's needs for the next 24+ months.
yeah well first of all Apple is and will remain a niche market company in the foreseeable future. this is not a bad thing, this is what keeps apple alive. they are "elite" puters if you will.
now, ever since I've been using apple puters since the first introduction of the G4, they've had the G3 for consumer products and G4s for pro products. That, for me worked really well because it boosts the awe factor of the pro machines. You are getting a system with a processor that only pro machines have, the consumers have an inferior chip.
slowly, when the G5's introduction was imminent G4s were starting to get introduced into the consumer&prosumer machines.
and then there was the G5, to regain the trust from the pro market which the badly scaling G4 had lost.
this worked very well.
I don't like the pc world kinda thing where pro and con (what genius pun again from my hand
and, like I've said before in other posts, having singles for consumers and duals for pros just arouses the suspicion from me that the company just doesn't have a decent pro chip, like with the last PMG4 incarnations.
introducing the G5 into consumer machines already will have it lose respect too soon.
but then again, if apple is in trouble, they might not have any other alternatives and I'd forgive them, Hell a new incarnation of the iMac might actually make it a cool puter again. As long as they don't use those fugly anodised colours ! ! !
iPod Minihentai yuck yuck.
"Tomorrow promises to be a ?big? day for Apple, so get your credit card balances down and your paychecks deposited?"
He is ussually right about things...I wonder what is coming?
Originally posted by anand
This from Maury at Railhead Design:
"Tomorrow promises to be a ?big? day for Apple, so get your credit card balances down and your paychecks deposited?"
He is ussually right about things...I wonder what is coming?
Thank god there is always a tomorrow ... yeah tomorrow we'll see new stuff, tomorrow
Before they can make this leap, they need to have a vary large installed base of G5s. I think this is still several years off, but they must be thinking of it already.
Another advantage (as others have noted) is definitely the scalability of the newer chips. The iMac is expensive enough that people will want real performance from it. I think the pro-line should differentiate itself by using duals, better cards, etc.
...IMO
As far as I can tell, 64 bit support means that compilers support the CPU's 64-bit data types, and system libraries support 64-bit datatypes (in particular, pointers). The performance gains for software that needs to work with these types can be significant, but not much Mac software does.
The 970 speeds a lot of things up for reasons that have nothing to do with its being a 64-bit CPU and everything to do with its being designed for high performance.
Originally posted by ~ufo~
introducing the G5 into consumer machines already will have it lose respect too soon.
but then again, if apple is in trouble, they might not have any other alternatives and I'd forgive them, Hell a new incarnation of the iMac might actually make it a cool puter again. As long as they don't use those fugly anodised colours ! ! !
iPod Minihentai yuck yuck.
Sometimes it's best not to overestimate customers. They're not looking at CPU families and motherboard specs. Let's be real superficial:
Design - Look at the pro line (Aluminum) and look at the consumer line (pretty white plastic).
Price - Look at the prices; the pro systems scale all the way up to $3000
Features - I consider the design of the Powermac G5 case a pro only feature. Superdrives used to be a pro-only feature (due to cost). Now we have TOSlink ports and fast-fast serial ATA drives for pros only (again, until the prices drop).
Lastly, I would hope Apple doesn't just "slap" in a G5 into the current iMacs (maybe they can't, thermally speaking). What with the 20th anniversary and all I think tomorrow or another Tuesday will bring us a new, new iMac with a G5.
Screed
It's pretty obvious PowerMac speedbumps are imminent if Steve's 3 gig in one year statement is to have any hope of credibility.
The iMac is in dire need of a G5, better graphics card and a redesign.
If the iMac gets a G5 then why not bung a 1.6 G5 in both eMacs at the same time? (Unless the eMac is canned and replaced by something with a decent screen...or better, some headless box thing...)
To me, PowerMac and iMac happen in the next couple of weeks.
The eMac by next quarter.
That leaves laptops. Er. 3 quarter of this year?
It's not rocket science...
Given Apple's slip to 1.9 marketshare...(Guess 'mhz'/speed and price do matter, eh?) I could well understand Apple's urgency to G5 transition.
They should be bustin' their b*lls to get there...
Lemon Bon Bon
Originally posted by ~ufo~
i can understand apple's haste to get rid of mot and their badly scaling G4s.
what I can't understand is why they would introduce their pro (say: "beeeeeeefcaaaaaaake") chip in a consumer desktop within 6 months of its introduction in the pro machines. That to me just sounds plain stupid marketing wise. The PMG5 hasn't even had it's first revision yet !
This has got to be the most simple minded position I've seen on this subject. There are literally hundreds of ways to differrentiate products. Plus if the 970 does scale to 3GHz, what is wrong in offering a 2GHz iMac to the rest of the market.
When it comes right down to it, it is not the chip that makes the computer a pro machine but a combination of other qualities. Frankly the G5 Tower does not qualify as a pro machine in some circles as it comes up short on a few features. Pro is a state of the mind issue anyways, plenty of iMacs are applied to professonal use. Well back when they had a reasonable cost performance ratio they where.
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I still think they'll introduce a new IBM chip for the consumers to bridge the gap between MOT G4s and IBM G5s. Like that G3 kinda chip I heard things about to which they added altivec. Hell they can even keep calling it the G4 and just finally have it scale from 1.4 -2.2 or something.
that would help. problem solved, call it G4+ for all I care.
Yep that is a good idea form an engineering stand point but maybe not from a production economics standpoint. If Apple can push volumes high enough the g5 will become very VERY CHEAP. Cheap is exactly what the iMac or its follow on needs.
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from my perspective, the only reason why they'd introduce a G5 into the consumer models is if the PMG6 release was just around the corner.....
Nope not at all. All they reasonably need is a substantial spread in performance. Put a 2GHz 970 in an iMac, add some nice graphics and it will compete very nicely with any of the intel based consumer machines. At the same time move the G5 to 3.3GHz and Apple will be out in front with respect to any sort of "pro" equipement (single or dual SMP) from just about anybody.
I would not be surprised to find that IBM is delivering the 90nm 970 to Apple for well less than a $100 per chip maybe even less than $50. I mean lets face it the transitor count on this chip is very low and the die size is tiny, they are not using any more resources that a chip did 4 or 5 years ago. It is in Apples best interest to implement as many of these as it can in as many products as it can.
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For one, it would be disastrous from a marketing perspective to have a G5 in an eMac (the lowest-end consumer machine that Apple makes) before, or even at the same time as the PowerBook (Apple's top-of-the-line portable). Regardless of heat and battery life considerations, they're just not going to do it.
I see PM updates very soon, and the G5 showing up in the iMac and PowerBooks not too long after... not sure which will come first. The eMac and iBook will probably get G5s late in the year. In time for Christmas shopping almost for sure, but if they could do it in time for school shopping, that would be even better.
Keep in mind, Apple probably wants to have big news announcements throughout the entire year, being the anniversary and all. There aren't too many things that get people excited more than major hardware announcements, and I think they'll want to milk it for all it's worth.
Imagine the following:
iBook - G5 1.2/512Mb RAM max
PowerBooks - G5 1.6/1.8/2.0/2Gb RAM max
PowerMacs - G5 2.6/2.8/3.0/8Gb RAM max
iMac - G5 1.4/1Gb RAM max
With marketing it is all about relative price/performance. The more G5's that Apple can get out into the market the better!
If Apple came out with G5 iBooks and PowerBooks today I would order a G5 PowerBook. Why? I am willing to spend ~$3,000.00 and I want to give my 17" PowerBook to one of my guys. I also want another 17" screen laptop. I don't care if I could get a G5 iBook...it's still and iBook!
Originally posted by Mike
Apple could do it if they are not held-up with technical issues.
Imagine the following:
iBook - G5 1.2/512Mb RAM max
PowerBooks - G5 1.6/1.8/2.0/2Gb RAM max
PowerMacs - G5 2.6/2.8/3.0/8Gb RAM max
iMac - G5 1.4/1Gb RAM max
With marketing it is all about relative price/performance. The more G5's that Apple can get out into the market the better!
If Apple came out with G5 iBooks and PowerBooks today I would order a G5 PowerBook. Why? I am willing to spend ~$3,000.00 and I want to give my 17" PowerBook to one of my guys. I also want another 17" screen laptop. I don't care if I could get a G5 iBook...it's still and iBook!
Apple needs to get the iMac up to the performance level ratio to the PM's that they had when the iMac was released, and indeed up untill the last 2 years. This means that the high end iMac should have an equivelent processor speed to the low end PowerMac.
PowerMacs - G5 2.0/2.4/2.6 all DP
PowerBooks - G5 1.4/1.6
iBook - G5 1.4
iMac - G5 1.4/1.6
eMac - G5 1.4
If you look at the speed ratios compared to the current line-up, it's really not that far off.
As has been mentioned, their are plenty of other ways to differentiate line-ups in addition to processor speed. The only caveat is that, even given the new power numbers, it seems unlikely that a processor faster than 1.6 GHz will work in a PowerBook at this time, and I just don't think that Apple will clock the iMac above the Pbook.
That being said, I'd love to see a 2.0 and 2.4 SP tower solution creep into the matrix. It would be especially nice if they could turn the iMac back into a consumer machine by getting the price back down in the $1,000 -$1,400 range, with a modestly expandable SP tower filling in from $1,500- $1,800 and the DP towers showing up at $2,000.
Don't forget IBM has PPC 750VX
Originally posted by neumac
I can't imagine Apple's sales suffering if they went immediately to the following line-up:
PowerMacs - G5 2.0/2.4/2.6 all DP
PowerBooks - G5 1.4/1.6
iBook - G5 1.4
iMac - G5 1.4/1.6
eMac - G5 1.4
I think that's your product differentiation right there.
PowerMacs - G5 2.0/2.4/2.6 all DP
PowerBooks - G5 1.4/1.6
iBook - G5 1.4
iMac - G5 1.4/1.6
eMac - G5 1.4
The iMac here is too slow. While the iMac may have started out as an entry-level consumer machine, it has graduated to being a mid-range computer, with a price to match.
If the PowerMacs ended up with those kinds of specs, the iMac should definitely get a boost. If even the low-end PM is DP (which I don't expect at this point), the SP iMac should also be at 2.0 GHz... having only one processor, no expansion capabilities, and other lower-end specs is enough of a differentiator. If, on the other hand, the low-end PM is an SP (which is more likely), the iMac would likely be slightly slower, but not by much. If the SP PM is at 2.0, the top-end iMac should hit 1.8.
There's no reason to keep the iMac tremendously slower than the PMs. Even if the PowerBooks are a bit slower, who cares? PowerBooks are portables, and iMacs are desktops... it's generally accepted that portables are slower.
Mojave has applications in the embedded processor market I believe, so it would not depend solely on Apple to get production quantities up and prices down. Mojave may get some of Motorola's embedded business too. Remember Gobi, the 750GX that so many were looking forward too? Well, Apple never used it, so there must be lots of other customers for such chips and price should be much better than Motorola's desktop G4 processors. Mojave is said to have AltiVec so it will run G4 applications.
I will go one styage further I think the 970fx will have a minimium clock speed of 2ghz and I doubt that ANY laptop will have a G5 below 2ghz. By the time the iBook has a G5, the PM will be running dual 3.2ghz or more.
I have my fingers crossed for tommorow.
I hope we see DP 2.2, 2.4 & 2.6 PM's
and
SP 2ghz 20" iMac.