Hajj 'great success' ? Saudi minister

blue shiftblue shift
Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Hajj 'great success' ? Saudi minister



Al-Jazeerah



MECCA (AFP) ? The Hajj season was a "great success," Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef Ben Abdul Aziz said Wednesday, adding that the 251 people trampled to death



Apparently, it is still very difficult for some to distinguish between civility and barbarism. If a "pilgrim" slips and falls, he has less of a chance of being helped to his feet than of being trampled to death.



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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 65
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Blue Shift

    Hajj 'great success' ? Saudi minister



    Al-Jazeerah



    MECCA (AFP) ? The Hajj season was a "great success," Saudi Interior Minister Prince Nayef Ben Abdul Aziz said Wednesday, adding that the 251 people trampled to death



    Apparently, it is still very difficult for some to distinguish between civility and barbarism. If a "pilgrim" slips and falls, he has less of a chance of being helped to his feet than of being trampled to death.







    this is the kind of trollery I expect from you . . . intolerant, incomprehending, and worthy of being locked and kicked
  • Reply 2 of 65
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    As much as I agree that PC_KILLA is a troll, this Hajj business is the sign of a sick culture.
  • Reply 3 of 65
    blue shiftblue shift Posts: 157member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pfflam

    this is the kind of trollery I expect from you . . . intolerant, incomprehending, and worthy of being locked and kicked



    So I suppose trampling 250 plus people to death is the civilized thing to do?





    Anyway, it seems now this kind of reaction is an almost automatic thing with you. I can't say I'm much surprised. But it is interesting to observe this evolution.
  • Reply 4 of 65
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    250 people died in a massed throng of pushing people . .. regrettable and not very civilized



    the Haj itself, however has millions and millions of people converging on a small geographical location for over a week . . . considering that that is the only real accompanying tragedy it is not so terrible



    after all, I remember a Who concert where many were trampled to death . . . or what about recent concerts of the same sort of thing, here in the great USofA?



    What I object to is you obvious attempt to belittle the whole culture for this tragic occurance and this phrasing in general:
    Quote:

    it is still very difficult for some to distinguish between civility and barbarism. If a "pilgrim" slips and falls, he has less of a chance of being helped to his feet than of being trampled to death



  • Reply 5 of 65
    blue shiftblue shift Posts: 157member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pfflam

    250 people died in a massed throng of pushing people . .. regrettable and not very civilized



    after all, I remember a Who concert where many were trampled to death . . .





    Maybe it says something about some of the Who fans?





    Quote:

    Originally posted by pfflam

    250

    What I object to is you obvious attempt to belittle the whole culture for this tragic occurance and this phrasing in general:



    See above.



    Same applies to the original post. i.e., Muhammadian fans.
  • Reply 6 of 65
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Blue Shift

    [ . . .] Muhammadian [ . . . ]



    need I say more
  • Reply 7 of 65
    blue shiftblue shift Posts: 157member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pfflam

    need I say more



    Plz do!!!
  • Reply 8 of 65
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    them muhammadinianistists is all evil and uncivillike . . . right Blue shift?
  • Reply 9 of 65
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Blue Shift

    If a "pilgrim" slips and falls, he has less of a chance of being helped to his feet than of being trampled to death.



    This is a lie. You state it as fact, when in fact it's simply a lie. That's not very nice of you.
  • Reply 10 of 65
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    This is a lie. You state it as fact, when in fact it's simply a lie. That's not very nice of you.



    I haven't seen either of you present evidence supporting either side. Since neither of you are more credible than the other, I'd like to see some evidence before believing anything.
  • Reply 11 of 65
    moogsmoogs Posts: 4,296member
    Troll or not, there is a valid point here (and Bill Maher made the same one), and that is that the overlooking of all these people who endured a horrible death, is a sign of complete lack of understanding and compassion on the part of the "officials" declaring it a great success. They no doubt declare it as such because they know how much bad press it gets and so want to contradict the notion that there is "something wrong" with the hajj. At least in terms of how it is carried out.
  • Reply 12 of 65
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    Well I for one am strongly tempted to lock the thread. Can it be saved, or should it?



    The 260 trampling of pilgrims is worthy of a topic. Want to how it precipitated, how it could be prevented or what can done about it? The idea that this is a sign of Muslim barbarism is highly dubious and I'd say explicitly trolling.



    Y'all have one shot.
  • Reply 13 of 65
    billybobskybillybobsky Posts: 1,914member
    i want to fire the cannonball. wait, how do i fire this thing?



    anyway. this has nothing to do with a religion per se, but more to the point that mob control has yet to reach the stage at which it should be. this is going to sound crude but how many people were trampled to death on their way out of the world trade center? people dont respond to massive moving crowds very well. it probably is wiser to trample someone than try to pick them up and be trampled yourself. conditions that support this environment should be prevented but that does not mean sacrificing a soccer match or the hajj.
  • Reply 14 of 65
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    Nice angle. Run with it!
  • Reply 15 of 65
    torifiletorifile Posts: 4,024member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by billybobsky

    i want to fire the cannonball. wait, how do i fire this thing?



    anyway. this has nothing to do with a religion per se, but more to the point that mob control has yet to reach the stage at which it should be. this is going to sound crude but how many people were trampled to death on their way out of the world trade center? people dont respond to massive moving crowds very well. it probably is wiser to trample someone than try to pick them up and be trampled yourself. conditions that support this environment should be prevented but that does not mean sacrificing a soccer match or the hajj.



    How many millions of people were in the WTC? What's that? .05 million? Hmm. How many millions were at Hajj? Around 2-3 million? It was a tragedy but to say that it's uncivilized is ridiculous.



    I've never been to Hajj or Mecca, but I hear that the experience is unique in that you've got many different nationalities/races represented and they all are there for the same thing. It must be a sight to see.



    Small mindedness is what started this thread. I hope we can pull this one from the gutter.



    edit: I should also say that crowd control would be a difficult task considering the shear number of languages that are represented at a pilgrimmage. Also, many pilgrims are not literate in their own language much less others. The task is daunting.
  • Reply 16 of 65
    billybobskybillybobsky Posts: 1,914member
    language isnt necessary really. most people will respond to arrows and colors in predictable ways, and as long as there are some literate people present it can be organized. i also think i made my point with the wtc comparisson, 250/3 M is probably a much smaller percentage than those trampled in the wtc.
  • Reply 17 of 65
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BR

    I haven't seen either of you present evidence supporting either side. Since neither of you are more credible than the other, I'd like to see some evidence before believing anything.



    This is the best you can do?



    If you bothered to read the article Blue Shift linked you'd see that no one 'slipped' as he stated. Feel free to come back after you're read the article we're discussing.



    How many millions made it? How many died? How many would normally die during that time period? I'll bet that the few that did die in an unfortunate and unnatural accident were fewer than would die out of a sample that size during a given week.
  • Reply 18 of 65
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by torifile

    Also, many pilgrims are not literate in their own language much less others. The task is daunting.



    Well when Chinese muslims make the trek, I'm not really surprised that they don't speak Arabic.
  • Reply 19 of 65
    chu_bakkachu_bakka Posts: 1,793member
    Nonetheless, the stampede has provoked King Fahd to announce a major renovation project for Mecca and nearby Medina. A council representing the kingdom's highest religious authority will meet on Thursday to discuss the tragedy, with some predicting that it may issue an edict, or fatwa, allowing changes to the stoning ritual to avoid future trouble.



    Tragedy is not new at the site of the pillars. Fourteen pilgrims were killed doing the same thing last year, 35 in 2001, more than 118 in 1998 and 340 in 1997.





    Thought I would add the end of the article to the discussion.
  • Reply 20 of 65
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    The Cincinnati Who concert was a huge deal. It changed everything about the way concerts are run in the US. And that was 11 people killed. Can you imagine if an official had said "it was just God's will." But people die at this Hajj every year. But what's another couple hundred of our Muslim brethren, right? And the belief is that if you die on the pilgrimage you get a free ticket to heaven. Wonderful.



    It's a sign of a damn sick culture. Just like letting school girls burn to death rather than go out without the funking veils. Allahu Akbar.



    Not that other cultures aren't sick. In the US we have our McDonalds and WalMart and televangelists and flag waving etc. But that doesn't excuse the really sick shite like this.



    Sorry if I offended anyone. God forbid that we actually be critical of anyone else.



    [edit: chubakka didn't see your post before I submitted mine.]
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