The New Horizons Computer Learning Center...Am I finally selling-out my Apple soul?

randycat99

So I've been offered a state-funded tuition grant to attend a 3 mos curriculum that will result in certifications for MCSA, CCNA, CompTIA A+, and CompTIA Network+, paid internship, and direct connections to employers who seek candidates possessing the specific skills that I will have.



The cold business truth is that M$ rules the roost in technological business in Orange Co. So those are the skills you need if you want to find work. So I find myself at a life career juncture overlooking the world of IT. The outlook is a career in IT Management. I could finally dig into that $60k-$90k/yr salary sector. Should I do it? Any comments or experiences with New Horizons? Curious to hear opinions from real IT people in the field on this (if you are here in the forum). Hit me wid-it quick!



Oh yes, getting back to my particular choice in topic title- so I'm still a diehard Apple advocate, but isn't it a shame I'm considering a deep plunge into the professional world of M$? I'm just acknowledging a short bit irony in all of this. It's not like a big dilemma- making money is making money. Got to make a living. Guess I should practice a "Don't ask, Don't tell" strategy?

alcimedes

well, i know among the tech geeks i know, MCSA is an insult, not a plus.



of course, i've also seen it listed as a requirement for job openings, so go figure.



i guess the real question would be are you going to be happy with what you're doing if you take that kind of job? if yes, go for it.

cosmonut

FWIW, New Horizons does a great job. \

randycat99

What's the non-smiley smiley supposed to mean? I'm confused! Is there anything exceptional at all about New Horizons, or is it pretty much the same boat as the likes of DeVry and ITT?



Is there any particular explanation why MCSA comes off as an insult?

chych

The MCSE certification is stereotypically viewed in the geek community as something completely not worthwhile. Those with MCSE certifications do not have a corresponding level of skill and perform poorly in the job environment, and simply do not have a real understanding of computing and IT.



MCSA is below MCSE, so it can't be any better. I've also heard that A+ is a joke FWIW. I took a CCNA certification class back in high school (during the IT boom) and never took the exam, but I did learn some interesting things.



Anyways, if you're getting this for free, you should take it then. However I'm not sure you will actually like your future jobs.

kickaha

I'll throw in my worthless two cents here...



MS* certifications are one of the biggest scams foisted on business by MS. Really. "Our systems are soooooo complicated, that only *certified* engineers can run them!" So instead of making the tools better, they figured out they could convince the suits that they needed *certified* engineers, and hey, it'll only cost you X$ to get your people *certified* by MS!



Classic fear tactics.



And of course they worked because suits are, for the most part, pretty inept and more than slightly paranoid.



So yeah, among the suits, MS* certifications are seen as a plus. Among techies, they're seen as a necessary evil at best, and at worst, just another MS scam.



Take it for what it's worth.

formerlurker

I agree with Kickaha on the value (or lack thereof) in the MS certifications. A necessary evil is a good description.



Of course, you could always throw a few Apple Certifications in the mix...

randycat99

Yes, I always suspected a certain amount of sleeziness behind all of this certification hubub. However, isn't it true that unless you have those various 4-letter (heh, ironic) combos in your resume, you are pretty SOL to get any consideration in the IT? The way it was described to me is that a HR person may get 100 or so resumes a day. Since they have no idea who is really qualified or not based on descriptions in the resumes (apart from outright fabrications, which I'm told is fairly common), they are left with just looking for specific "certifications" to quickly weed out the bulk of the resumes. The certifications may not show how much more you know, but it does show that you know a certain amount of specific things. Like a "college degree", the certificates are simply a documentation that you have been through some definable curriculum.



So I guess if it comes down to if I am obliged to put any serious money of my own into this, the courseware that leads to these certifications are a ripoff? Is it better to just get these certifications on my own and pay "ala cart"? What about the hands-on exposure, the paid internship, and the sheer networking resources involved here? Won't that count for something wrt getting "teh job" vs. not getting it?



This is what strikes me the most about this setup- the combination of resources. You can get your own certifications, but if you don't have the contacts, you will never even see the job listings you seek (because they aren't typically available in public). The ones you do see, you will be vying for attention within a stack of a 100+ resumes. You can have the contacts, but if you don't have the certifications, they are really just going on word of mouth that you can handle what you say you can. It's expensive and time-consuming to hire and fire people over and over because their capabilities don't quite meet up to what their resume claims.



The hands-on exposure to actual hardware and software also strikes me as a crucial component. Someone may have gotten all the certifications and "played around" with similar hardware/software at home, but does that compare with being trained on actual equipment and put in real troubleshooting scenarios? Finally, there's the internship. That gets your foot in the door, and if you are worth your grits, they will know you by name when it comes to actually landing a job with them.



So you have certification, networking/contacts, lab exposure, and internship, which should make a far more compelling job candidate, right? Well that's my pro-argument for this New Horizons thing. Have I been brainwashed?

kickaha

Yeah, it helps.



Doesn't mean that from a technical perspective it actually means anything.



But gee, those suits seem to like 'em.

randycat99

Quote:

Originally posted by chych

Anyways, if you're getting this for free, you should take it then. However I'm not sure you will actually like your future jobs.

Well, it's not entirely free. \ How much do you think it should be worth?



Would you please elaborate on why I may not actually like the future jobs? Do tell!

randycat99

Quote:

Originally posted by Kickaha

Yeah, it helps.



Doesn't mean that from a technical perspective it actually means anything.



But gee, those suits seem to like 'em.

So I won't learn anything useful from these courses that I can use in the field? What other stuff would I be missing?

kickaha

Jobs that require those sorts of certifications that are really rather worthless are those that don't value tech skills, just certifications. They won't understand your job, your skills, or problems you may run into. You'll be a cog, and anyone else with the same certification will be seen as an easy replacement for you.

randycat99

Wouldn't that include just about every major corporation these days? Clearly, they rely on a technology backbone that has to function and function well. So if they are hiring mostly people that have the certifications, somebody must be keeping these systems running, no? ...or are these all just the same self-trained computer fanatics that have begrudgingly picked up the certifications to qualify for the positions that they hold?

gh0ztt

As somebody who actually has a fairly high level tech operations job I can tell you that the certifications really are worthless from an educational standpoint. There is no replacement for experience. At the end of the day the people with the most certifications are just the people who can memorize and recall information the best.



Most of the people that I encounter with MS certs are junior level people who were in the same position as you. Now this isn't true with everybody, but most of them have zero troubleshooting experience, which is critical to most of the jobs that ask for these types of certs.



Think of the certs as a way to get your foot in the door. I wouldn't expect the 60-90k pay range that you suggest above though. That's just the way that these training companies convince people to pay $10,000 for a MCSE class that they could get for $200 if they just bought the books themselves. Put it this way, I've worked for several big name tech companies, and none of them would pay in that range for somebody with no experience, no matter how many pieces of paper they had. Of course this also depends on the market that you're in... if you're in a really large city (read NYC or SFO) then you might get 60k out of the gate, but I still think it's unlikely. There are always exceptions and you might luck out, but don't go for the certs based on what you want to make, go for them with the expectation that you'll get a decent job and will be able to move up as you gain experience.



For the record I have certs from MS, Cisco, and CompTIA. Did they help me get my current job? Maybe. But I know for a fact that experience is what's scrutinized the most at an interview. I've never been asked to show proof of my certs. So either companies are very trusting of people's resumes, or they simply don't put that much weight on certs.



One last thing, as somebody mentioned above - if you work for a company who hires people solely based on certs you'll find yourself working with a bunch of know-it-alls who really know nothing, and the company will replace them on a whim if they want too. Don't become a commodity.



I work with Windows all day - It's refreshing to come home to my Mac

randycat99

I hear what you are saying, and I am glad that everybody has taken the time to express their opinions frankly.



To back up a bit, I did say that the certifications get your resume looked at vs. pushed over into the trash pile. I'm sure the experience comes out when they interview you. The certifications get your resume in the door, I guess. W/o that, you can't get the interview. I take it the experience is what you gain while you are on the job? So everyone has to start as a newbie one day. So what sort of jobs do you think I would end up in as a newbie with these certifications?

ghost_user_name

Depends on who is interviewing you. An interview is your chance to sell yourself usually, so if you can bullshit well, you'll do well. Unless you're actually interviewing with someone that knows his shit and he is going to grill you on it, your idealized idea of how all this works will fall apart quickly when you step into the office for your interview

ghost_user_name

Depends on who is interviewing you. An interview is your chance to sell yourself usually, so if you can bullshit well, you'll do well. Unless you're actually interviewing with someone that knows his shit and he is going to grill you on it, your idealized idea of how all this works will fall apart quickly when you step into the office for your interview

stupider...likeafox

Quote:

Originally posted by Randycat99

To back up a bit, I did say that the certifications get your resume looked at vs. pushed over into the trash pile. I'm sure the experience comes out when they interview you. The certifications get your resume in the door, I guess.

I have seen comments to the effect that listing these qualifications can get your application binned in some workplaces. As you state however, in other places you need them to get past the HR dept. They won't however impress anyone technical.



The question is which of these two types of places do you actually want to work in?



As far as constructive advice: get the certs if you can for cheap but *do not* believe the hype that their salespeople put out and if you put the certs on your resume *do not* make a big deal out of them. You passed the exam, that's all they prove and that's all you should expect them to say. (Many of the exams expect you to give the official MSFT answer rather than the correct one, too)



Genuine, real-world experience and being enthusiastic and knowledgeable about your work is far more important.



On a wider note you should really be trying to network your way into a job rather than responding to random job adverts asking for MSCEs. Join a local Mac User Group or something.

alcimedes

well, i have no certs and have been working in IT for about 7 years now.



when i'm hiring, if someone lists MCSE on their resume first, or promotes it in any way shape or form, i toss it.



the thing is, the only way HR is going to chuck your resume if it doesn't contain MCSE info is if the job description was written to require it.



anyone who actually required that crap to hire someone you probably don't want to work for because they're clueless.



i personally view MCSE as a negative that someone needs to make up for in an interview. my first assumption is that they're going to be an MS drone, and i don't need that in a cross platform enviornment.

dfiler

I also view certifications as a negative although there are manyy who disagree with this stance.



Any job requiring a cert is likely for an organization which has a culture where employees cover their own ass rather than relying on forthwith interaction.



Personally, I view certification as equivalent to a tech school education from an institution that advertises on day-time television.



(Or maybe that's my expensive education trying to justify itself.)

progmac

Quote:

Originally posted by dfiler

I also view certifications as a negative although there are manyy who disagree with this stance.



Any job requiring a cert is likely for an organization which has a culture where employees cover their own ass rather than relying on forthwith interaction.



Personally, I view certification as equivalent to a tech school education from an institution that advertises on day-time television.



(Or maybe that's my expensive education trying to justify itself.)

I see you are from Pittsburgh, a haven for real IT education. I was in Pitt's telecom grad program for a while, good stuff.