Hybrid Cars Don't Live Up to Mileage Claims
Over at Slashdot they are running a story on the claims of hybrid cars not living up to thier claims.
I've always wondered at the TRUE efficiency of the battery operated/hybrid cars---that the generation of electricity combinded with the eneregy losses involved with transfer, charging, then discharging, not to mention the energy and waste involved in building the batteries, and their disposal---make for a truly unevironmentally friendly solution comapred with the internal combustion engine.
I think this is a shell game that puts the environmental impact in China or Mexico rather than in the L.A. air supply.
Could somebody prove my wrong? I'd actually like to wrong on this.
I've always wondered at the TRUE efficiency of the battery operated/hybrid cars---that the generation of electricity combinded with the eneregy losses involved with transfer, charging, then discharging, not to mention the energy and waste involved in building the batteries, and their disposal---make for a truly unevironmentally friendly solution comapred with the internal combustion engine.
I think this is a shell game that puts the environmental impact in China or Mexico rather than in the L.A. air supply.
Could somebody prove my wrong? I'd actually like to wrong on this.
Comments
That said, my Insight on highway driving gets around 50 mpg. When I'm driving around the city at less than 30 mph, I've calculated that my fuel economy is closer to 80 mpg.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?cha...F483414B7F0000]
That said, my Insight on highway driving gets around 50 mpg. When I'm driving around the city at less than 30 mph, I've calculated that my fuel economy is closer to 80 mpg.
That's phenomenal! Not just the raw numbers, but the fact that fuel economy in the city is almost twice as good as on the highway, a complete opposite of the "traditional" vehicle.
Nifty.
-John
I thought at the time that the hybrid was a waste on a car like the civic. It already sips gas so why fit it with and electric system?
Originally posted by dmz
Over at Slashdot they are running a story on the claims of hybrid cars not living up to thier claims.
I've always wondered at the TRUE efficiency of the battery operated/hybrid cars---that the generation of electricity combinded with the eneregy losses involved with transfer, charging, then discharging, not to mention the energy and waste involved in building the batteries, and their disposal---make for a truly unevironmentally friendly solution comapred with the internal combustion engine.
I think this is a shell game that puts the environmental impact in China or Mexico rather than in the L.A. air supply.
Could somebody prove my wrong? I'd actually like to wrong on this.
Disappointing no doubt but to be even handed about all cars and claims of fuel milage I will state that the 2003 Dodge Ram Quad Cab truck I owned had stated on the window sticker 14 city 19 highway.
The truth is I got 12 city and 14 highway. I never ever got more than 15.5 even when I drove it very light footed and no AC for a tank to do a test to see how good it could be.
I would argue that it is not just hybrids that fail to meet what is claimed.
Fellowship
Originally posted by Outsider
I don't understand why hybrid cars don't use cleaner gas turbine engines that run most efficiently at a constant speed and have them power a generator that drives an electric motor, solely used for propulsion. basically an electric car with a gas turbine as the electricity generator.
Would you trust the majority of the population to keep up with the rigorous maint standadrs of a GT? Additionally, GT's are hot and diffictult to muffle. GT's are expensive to produce as well. We would have to have very highly/specially trained techs to repair GT's.
The auto industry has been toying with these for some time now. It seems every 10 years or so the industry gets a bug up its bonnett and look at the viability. GT's never pan out because of the above.
Originally posted by Outsider
I don't understand why hybrid cars don't use cleaner gas turbine engines that run most efficiently at a constant speed and have them power a generator that drives an electric motor, solely used for propulsion. basically an electric car with a gas turbine as the electricity generator.
I think the idea behind the current crop of hybrids is that they are regular cars, to keeps cost down, with and electric add on.
Originally posted by Scott
Makes me glad I didn't buy a hybrid when I got my Civic. I get 33-31 MPG highway driving 70/80MPH in Michigan. At that speed the electric motor can't help out that much at all. So I'm not surprised that the electric is no better. I can get 36 at more reasonable highway speeds. Honda claims 37 for that car. City driving I don?t have enough data on.
I thought at the time that the hybrid was a waste on a car like the civic. It already sips gas so why fit it with and electric system?
As already mentioned--Emissions.
Originally posted by faust9
As already mentioned--Emissions.
My topic -- Fuel Economy.
Originally posted by Scott
My topic -- Fuel Economy.
Then you should have bought a fucking diesel. You admit you made a poor choice with the Civic?
Originally posted by Scott
My topic -- Fuel Economy.
If you're worried about fuel economy then, as Existance said, you should have gotten a VW TDI. My wifes bug gets 40 to 50 MPG and her car is pretty peppy.
[edit] You stated that you didn't know why Honda was mucking up a Civic with a Hybrid engine to wit I responded Emissions. They are not doing it for economy (though that will probably go up), they are doing it for emissions.
Originally posted by Existence
Then you should have bought a fucking diesel. You admit you made a poor choice with the Civic?
What the fuck is your problem?
This is standard procedure to overstate benefits and to frame these things in the best possible terms even if they are ideal and not realistic. It sucks but it's not unique and we should be used to it by now. We can rant and rave all day about how the nutrition labels on food overstate their nutrition claims and understate their fat and calories. We can talk about how TV and computer monitors overstate their size. Certainly, any object that uses a battery overstates the longevity of that item. and f course, now we have overstated milage values for hybrid cars, just like all other cars. People have to be pretty gullible to take these things at face value.
Don't get me wrong, the emissions thing might make the wasted energy worthwhile.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
This is standard procedure to overstate benefits and to frame these things in the best possible terms even if they are ideal and not realistic. It sucks but it's not unique and we should be used to it by now. We can rant and rave all day about how the nutrition labels on food overstate their nutrition claims and understate their fat and calories. We can talk about how TV and computer monitors overstate their size. Certainly, any object that uses a battery overstates the longevity of that item. and f course, now we have overstated milage values for hybrid cars, just like all other cars. People have to be pretty gullible to take these things at face value.
We don't have to be gullible to demand more accurate testing from the EPA-- especially given the magnitude of the error of the gas mileage test. I would expect the test to reflect real-world driving conditions. Instead, it's often off by as much as 50%. To me that seems like a poor standard needing rejection or reformulation, not acceptance.
dmz:
transfer- Technically there is a little loss transferring the electricity from the battery to the motor; most if it from resistance in the cables, but that amounts to basically nothing. Electric motors are much more efficient than gas at converting energy into motion.
generation/charging/discharging- The battery pack in my Civic Hybrid charges/discharges much faster than batteries you are typically used to at home. These batteries can absorb current quickly, and dump current like there is no tomorrow! My battery pack can charge from 40% to 95% in less than a minute. Generating electricity uses the kinetic energy when you slow down (use breaks, coast) that is normally wasted on other cars. However, there is an exception when the battery is very low. When you reach 40% battery level, the engine will use every chance it can to charge the battery as long as you are not accelerating.
building/disposal- Aha! That is a problem. Batteries don't last forever. Do the ends justify the means?
Existence: 80MPG? I'm a little reluctant to believe that.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml
Originally posted by faust9
They are not doing it for economy (though that will probably go up), they are doing it for emissions.
That is totally true. Even more, it is for bragging rights. In order to qualify for "Ultra Low Emission Vehicle" status, everything that can emit some vapor has a sensor next to it. Even the gas tank has a vacuum sensor so unburned gas vapors don't escape into the atmosphere. The Maintenance required light comes on if the gas cap is not sealed tightly and it costs $90 for some a technician to plug in a computer and reset the switch.
$90 to PLUG IN A COMPUTER!?!? WTF!
This is standard procedure to overstate benefits and to frame these things in the best possible terms even if they are ideal and not realistic.
actually, this isn't entirely the case here. car manf. aren't allowed to use anything but the EPA test results to talk about fuel effiency of their vehicles. so if the EPA test sucks, then they'll have crappy numbers to show us in exchange.
problem is the EPA test tests emissions, not gas used. which of course gives inaccurate readings for cars that have partial zero emissions.
Originally posted by dmz
I was more concerned that hybrids actually use MORE total energy, and that that energy increae is actually much more wastefull than the internal combustion engine.
Don't get me wrong, the emissions thing might make the wasted energy worthwhile.
No, actually, they probably use more or less the exact same energy over the entire life of the car from raw material to recycling/disposal...
You use less water and energy using a dish washer, but the energy and waste from building and disposing of the dish washer makes up for that difference...
If this SUV can get around 30-35 miles per gallon in real world driving I am impressed.
I am not a fan of Ford but I applaud Ford for this effort.
Fellowship