Pulling out of Iraq
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...n_el_pr/bush_3
The US military been there now for 15 months. If we can't get out now, then what is the right time? If now isn't a good time, then is any time possible? Are US troops going to be there forever, at a cost of $5 billion + each month?
If there is a genuine emergency re. national security, then will that be the reason to pull out? We don't have the troops to cope with another simultaneous "situation".
What is the "disaster" that Bush is talking about? That Iraqis will assume control of their own natural resources and perhaps nationalize the oil industry there? It is impossible that his concern is humanitarian ...ie civil war breaking out, resulting in lots of civilian casualties: we've killed 11,000 of them already. Terrorism? Since US troops entered Iraq, terrorism has spiralled in the region, in places where it was previously a rarity.
What is Bush gibbering about this time, and if the troops can't come home right now, when CAN they, according to Bush "logic"?
Quote:
ROME - President Bush (news - web sites), facing tough talks with U.S. allies, said Thursday it would be disastrous if they took their troops out of Iraq (news - web sites).
ROME - President Bush (news - web sites), facing tough talks with U.S. allies, said Thursday it would be disastrous if they took their troops out of Iraq (news - web sites).
The US military been there now for 15 months. If we can't get out now, then what is the right time? If now isn't a good time, then is any time possible? Are US troops going to be there forever, at a cost of $5 billion + each month?
If there is a genuine emergency re. national security, then will that be the reason to pull out? We don't have the troops to cope with another simultaneous "situation".
What is the "disaster" that Bush is talking about? That Iraqis will assume control of their own natural resources and perhaps nationalize the oil industry there? It is impossible that his concern is humanitarian ...ie civil war breaking out, resulting in lots of civilian casualties: we've killed 11,000 of them already. Terrorism? Since US troops entered Iraq, terrorism has spiralled in the region, in places where it was previously a rarity.
What is Bush gibbering about this time, and if the troops can't come home right now, when CAN they, according to Bush "logic"?
Comments
You have a country that's in turmoil - some directed at us, much not.
Pulling the only established, garrisoned, equipped (kind of) policing force the country has would be, well, negligent murder at best.
We screwed up the country by mismanagement, you're damned skippy we should stay there as long as needed and requested.
Or maybe you think that walking away from a responsibility after screwing up is the right way to go?
Sorry, but I utterly disagree with you on this one, and I'm hardly a Bush supporter.
In for a penny, in for a pound so to speak.
If you were really interested in "liberating" the people, you treat the general populace as people, not as insurgents. Yes it will cost lives short term, but without the support of the people it was going to always be hard.
After the toppling of Saddam a lot was promised. Unfortunately not much been delivered.
Hell you may even have to sent more troops...
Originally posted by Kickaha
Um, I know it's not fashionable around here to defend Shrub, but I'm actually going to on this one.
You have a country that's in turmoil - some directed at us, much not.
Pulling the only established, garrisoned, equipped (kind of) policing force the country has would be, well, negligent murder at best.
We screwed up the country by mismanagement, you're damned skippy we should stay there as long as needed and requested.
Or maybe you think that walking away from a responsibility after screwing up is the right way to go?
Sorry, but I utterly disagree with you on this one, and I'm hardly a Bush supporter.
The presence of US troops is Iraq is causing unrest, and a lack of US troops in Iraq will promote differing forms of unrest. You missed my point completely...I wasn't advocating an immediate pullout: I was inquiring when can this happen? As I said, if not now, then the answer is probably never. Also, currently, 14 permanent military bases are being constructed there....that doesn't exactly point to any future troop withdrawals.
Colin Powell commented re. Iraq: "if you break it, you own it". Will Iraq will become a US satellite state with a puppet government, in order to secure those valuable oil deposits for the ever increasing demand of gas guzzling Americans? The fable of "democratize" the middle east so people live there in peace and security" that we've been fed by the administration is garbage: anyone believing this kind of BS is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Before the presence of US troops in Iraq there were hundreds of Islamic extremists wanting to attack the US, or US interests. Now there's probably hundreds of thousands. These people do not have short attention spans like us...time is of no object. revenge may happen next month, or next decade.
When can we pull the troops out, (if ever), and why then?
Originally posted by Common Man
Can't leave now! Please! If we leave now , Iraq will implode. Leaving now would be a death sentence for Iraq. They need time to set up a decent police force and army. There gov will only survive if it can be defended against those who hate it and hare us. We need to have a presence for several years.
OK, fair enough. When is a good time then?
You're asking for a date. That's irrational. No one knows. Ask instead "What *criteria* and *circumstances* would make for the ideal pull out of American troops?"
That at least can lead to a hopefully interesting dialogue, instead of a meaningless whinefest like usually happens in here.
You are right about terrorism though. It's multiplying. This was one serious fuck up that I pray to the Creator won't come to bite us ALL in the butt for the next 50 years.
We "own" Iraq now. We need a change towards genuinely wanting to help the Iraqis, and this administration with the Rumsfelds,Wolfowitz, Feiths, Cheneys, Abrams, Bremers et al is finally openly proving it's NOT the one to do it.
Originally posted by bunge
We certainly can leave, as long as the UN takes 100% of the control we currently have in the country.
And how would the take control, without US troops? Take the US out of the mix and the UN could hardly be expected to provide the necessary people or equipment or will to take functional control.
The US should pull out as soon as the elected govenment asks them to. Or when the UN decides that the country is stable enough to manage itself.
Originally posted by Common Man
The UN is worthless. UN control =US soldiers keeping the peace under a different flag. Why is the left so enamored by the UN?
LOL, then why are we going to the UN these days? Last time I checked Dubya wasn't on the left. Did you hear that on Rush L?
"Members of the United Nations now have an opportunity, and the responsibility to assume a broader role in assuring that Iraq becomes a free and democratic nation,"Mr. Bush said in a rare prime-time address to the nation.
Click me
Emphasis mine.
Originally posted by Common Man
The UN is worthless.
Including Security Council Resolution 1441?
Quote:
UN control =US soldiers keeping the peace under a different flag. Why is the left so enamored by the UN?
OK...what is your solution for a replacement? The United Federation of Planets? And why are the pro-war folk so keen on this massive, ongoing, black hole of government spending?
Anti-war, pro-continued-presence here.
Stop lumping everyone who disagrees with some *portion* of your ideology into one bin.
At the moment it looks like another flash-point is building, and who knows what the consequences will be.
Originally posted by Common Man
The UN is worthless. UN control =US soldiers keeping the peace under a different flag. Why is the left so enamored by the UN?
Get the US out of Iraq and more countries will contribute troops under a UN banner for peace keeping. The US will still be leeched for financial aid, but it will be cheaper than the current bills being paid by the tax payers in the US.
Of course, pulling out was not the motive behind going to war with Iraq. The US will see to it that it has a permanent presence in the country under some pretext or the other. This is what many of us stated at the start of the war and it will happen irrespective of democrats or republicans. The US policy in the middle east for the past several decades has been to get more control over the oil reserves, it is not likely to change soon. At least back then you had Russia and the US keeping each other in check...
Originally posted by Tulkas
And how would the take control, without US troops?
Why would the UN need to take control without US troops?
Originally posted by Common Man
Why is the left so enamored by the UN?
Because according to the US Constitution, international treaties that we sign are considered the law of the land. The legal equivalent to the Bill of Rights. If you don't like having to follow the Constitution, go fuck yourself.
Originally posted by sammi jo
The presence of US troops is Iraq is causing unrest, and a lack of US troops in Iraq will promote differing forms of unrest. You missed my point completely...I wasn't advocating an immediate pullout: I was inquiring when can this happen? As I said, if not now, then the answer is probably never. Also, currently, 14 permanent military bases are being constructed there....that doesn't exactly point to any future troop withdrawals.
-snip-
When can we pull the troops out, (if ever), and why then?
When we first went into Iraq I thought our troops would be there for five to ten years. I have seen nothing to make me change my estimate. It takes a long time to pacify then and rebuild a county, and whether it was a good or bad idea to go invade in the first place is a totally moot point - we are there and have the responsibility to clean up the mess before we leave.
Even once we end our occupation of Iraq we will most likely keep at least 50,000 or so troops, and a lot of equipment stationed in basses leased form Iraq. America would totally collapse if middle-eastern oil was suddenly cut off, so we are going to put enough military assets in the region to make sure that it doesn't happen.