Latest G5's = Short EOL?
With the latest PowerMac 'upgrades' might we have just witnessed the birth of another "PowerMac VX" and/or "B&W G3"? Both computers were kinda like the 'last of their line' and/or 'very short lived'.
Why you ask?
Well these G5 v2 upgrades just SMELL FUNNY.
1 - Only a one new CPU speed introduction (2.5 GHz) all the others are old news.
2 - No appreciable motherboard changes at all and in the case of the 1.8 a downgrade to PCI from PCI-X
3 - No memory upgrades at all and it the case of the 1.8 a downgrade
4 - No hard drive changes at all and in the case of the 1.8 and 2.0 a downgrade
5 - *** Not even a stitch of a change in video cards. In fact, the lack of video cards updates have been pointed out by most everyone right off the bat. A huge letdown to most. Second only to not making the change to PCI-Extreme
6 - *** No display updates - still mismatched holdovers from the G4 days. Quite un-Apple like if you ask most people.
Okay so with what we have above and the ThinkSecret report about new displays that are in the works it got me to thinking.
1 - The new displays are said to be DVI instead of ADC - power usage being the main reason for the dropping of ADC.
2 - Apple had to push or build their own card designs that supported ADC since they are the only company (for the most part) that has adopted the (IBM invented?) standard.
3 - Designing special Video cards that support ADC can't be 'cheap' to do and unless you know your gonna build a lot of them just wouldn't be cost effective.
So could it be that the reason that the "NEW" PowerMac line is still stuck with OLD video card options is due to the fact that it didn't make sense for Apple to redesign 'more modern cards' with ADC knowing full well:
A - The 'new' hardware is short lived
B - The 'current' displays are at their end of life
C - New PowerMacs and Displays will QUICKLY follow that are DVI based and then Apple can utilize cards and/or card designs that are already being made for the rest of the PC industry. (greatly increasing the video card options).
I dunno but this could help explain things...
Dave
Why you ask?
Well these G5 v2 upgrades just SMELL FUNNY.
1 - Only a one new CPU speed introduction (2.5 GHz) all the others are old news.
2 - No appreciable motherboard changes at all and in the case of the 1.8 a downgrade to PCI from PCI-X
3 - No memory upgrades at all and it the case of the 1.8 a downgrade
4 - No hard drive changes at all and in the case of the 1.8 and 2.0 a downgrade
5 - *** Not even a stitch of a change in video cards. In fact, the lack of video cards updates have been pointed out by most everyone right off the bat. A huge letdown to most. Second only to not making the change to PCI-Extreme
6 - *** No display updates - still mismatched holdovers from the G4 days. Quite un-Apple like if you ask most people.
Okay so with what we have above and the ThinkSecret report about new displays that are in the works it got me to thinking.
1 - The new displays are said to be DVI instead of ADC - power usage being the main reason for the dropping of ADC.
2 - Apple had to push or build their own card designs that supported ADC since they are the only company (for the most part) that has adopted the (IBM invented?) standard.
3 - Designing special Video cards that support ADC can't be 'cheap' to do and unless you know your gonna build a lot of them just wouldn't be cost effective.
So could it be that the reason that the "NEW" PowerMac line is still stuck with OLD video card options is due to the fact that it didn't make sense for Apple to redesign 'more modern cards' with ADC knowing full well:
A - The 'new' hardware is short lived
B - The 'current' displays are at their end of life
C - New PowerMacs and Displays will QUICKLY follow that are DVI based and then Apple can utilize cards and/or card designs that are already being made for the rest of the PC industry. (greatly increasing the video card options).
I dunno but this could help explain things...
Dave
Comments
Originally posted by applenut
In fact, it would make sense for apple to include ADC for the next generation or two so as to cater to people who already own cinema displays and want to use them on their new macs.
As a person who purchased a MIDDLE END G4 450 the day it was announced (and long before 450 was re-classified TOP END to to 500MHz CPUs being MIA for much longer than anticipated) I for one can say in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that what you describe is NOT Apples' style! Not by a longshot.
Being stuck with a NON-ADC G4 pissed me off to no end and while sure they could have designed those 'too cool flat panel displays' that I wanted SO BAD in a way were I could have ordered one for my 'not too old' G4 - I was simply SOL... Sorry but without ADC Apple just didn't wanna know me... DVI-->ADC came out eventually but for a good long while the initial adopters of the G4 were just screwed over....
Ahhh okay I feel better now.
In any case... I stand by my comment:
"so as to cater to people who already own cinema displays " - that AIN'T Apples style!
Dave
ThinkSecret says the new 30" LCD display has a resolution of 2560 x 1600. This is above the capatibility of DVI at 60Hz! A single DVI connector cannot transmit that much data at 60Hz.
You made an error in your list - the video cards did change slightly. They are now the XT versions of the cards (ie Radeon 9600XT and Radeon 9800XT vs Radeon 9600 and Radeon 9800) and as such have increased in the amount of RAM on the card.
And as I see it the 1.8 wasn't downgraded - the low-end was upgraded from a 1.6 to a 1.8.
I suspect (and hope) you're on to something.
One of the reasons the G5 introduction was so well received was because Apple pulled all technology stops in their design: S-ATA, latest graphics accelerators, whisper quiet, USB2, FW800, etc.. After all the half-baked G4 updates, the G5 was a huge breath of fresh air and seemed to indicate Apple was rededicating itself to *all* leading edge technology.
These machines do not reflect that dedication and, even though they're decent, they don't continue the aggressive commitment of the original G5s. The graphics card issue really seems odd (unless you're correct) since Apple has really been tooling up for fast graphics on so many fronts... OSX general, gaming, and professional (Motion et al.). Plus, I've been waiting for new monitors since the November 2003 "release date" rumors started.
(Given WWDC is too soon at this stage) we still have SIGGRAPH in August to look forward to. Perhaps Apple'll introduce new screens, graphics cards, mobos there.
Even AppleInsider's legendary(infamous?) Kormac77 thinks SIGGRAPH may be special:
kormac77, Apple futures, & SIGGRAPH 2004
I'm hoping DG and Kormac77 are on to something(s) and we find out by August 8, 2004. In the meantime, I'm waiting for new monitors (including hopefully 30") to take the G5 plunge.
Cheers!
The initial message by kormac77 is the one I meant to link. Here's a better link:
Initial kormac77 post.
Cheers.
Originally posted by Leonard
They will not be short-lived. They're here for the next several months. Get used to it. Quit make excuses or reasons to hope they won't be here long... they will be. In life, you don't always get what you want, life is unfair.
Huh?
"Several Months" ***IS*** short lived!
Dave
Originally posted by Existence
Here's an interesting thought:
ThinkSecret says the new 30" LCD display has a resolution of 2560 x 1600. This is above the capatibility of DVI at 60Hz! A single DVI connector cannot transmit that much data at 60Hz.
Better read up on the DVI specifications.
Specifically read page 7 (section 1.2 - Performance Scalability)
A single TMDS-link supports more than HDTV (1920x1080) resolution at 60Hz LCD 5% blanking. And when the link cannot handle it, you need to add another one. Not too much issue there. Besides with Selective Refresh, only screen changes are pushed to the display, so no need to push the entire resolution to the screen on each refresh.
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Better read up on the DVI specifications.
Specifically read page 7 (section 1.2 - Performance Scalability)
A single TMDS-link supports more than HDTV (1920x1080) resolution at 60Hz LCD 5% blanking. And when the link cannot handle it, you need to add another one. Not too much issue there. Besides with Selective Refresh, only screen changes are pushed to the display, so no need to push the entire resolution to the screen on each refresh.
That is why I said "A single DVI connector cannot transmit that much data at 60Hz..." If Apple is going to make a a 30" display with 2560x1600 resolution, Apple needs a dual-link DVI connectors and a graphics card to match. Neither ADC nor a single DVI connector can do this resolution.
Originally posted by Existence
That is why I said "A single DVI connector cannot transmit that much data at 60Hz..." If Apple is going to make a a 30" display with 2560x1600 resolution, Apple needs a dual-link DVI connectors and a graphics card to match. Neither ADC nor a single DVI connector can do this resolution.
So what's the problem? Dual link is still one connector, just another link on the connector.
Here's one such dual-link cable.
In terms of the speed of the 970FX, or course it will increase in speed over time - just not as fast as we would like. There are also chips on the Apple/IBM road map that will make the new PMs look like "old" technology. That's also a given. The reality is that Apple delivered what was available when it was available. While it sucks that IBM ran into an unexpected problem with the 90 nm fab process I would guess that most people who have worked for a while have also ran into unexpected problems that delayed schedules, or make it necessary to address an issue in a different direction. I sure have - lots of times - and I've only got a small, one man company.
Maybe it's just that I'm getting old. When I took an Introduction to Computers course in college they passed around a cup with some small metal rings in it. It was memory - and it was hand wired into place. I don't tend to take new technology for granted like those that were not around at that time and Apple's release of the new PMs look pretty good to me - just as my new 1.5 gig 15" PB does.
I think that there are some very exciting things in Apple's future. Faster chips, 65 nm processing, Gx chips with dual cores - lost of things. What they have done this week is deliver products that made the most sense to them today.
Going from 2.0 to 2.5 Ghz is a fairy good speeed bump (an extra Ghz in total being a dual).
Intel don't do this type of speed bump. Especially in the 64bit arena.
I still think the casing is too big.
I don't like the "new" Dual 1.8 having its PCI-x demoted to PCI. That sucks. Graphics cards are lame as well. I would have expected at least 128MB cards as a decent Graphics card has 256MB.
Dobby.
$50 gets you a 128 Mb video card - just like on the 15' PM I bought last month.
It addresses a specific market that doesn't have the financial freedom to go for a topped out 2.5 - those folks are probably going to be glad Apple thought of them.
PowerMac G5s continue to use ADC because:
1. The current displays still use ADC. So G5s should have ADC in case customers want to buy a monitor at the same time.
2. Many people are upgrading from older Powermacs. Since the new G5s have ADC, then they can continue using their current display.
2. The current G5s also have DVI so they will be compatible with the new DVI monitors when they come out.
If Apple was to eliminate the ADC on the computer side, many customers will suffer. Therefore, it is only natural that the ADC disappears on the monitor side first. The G5s will probably continue to have ADC for a few months after the DVI monitors come out.
The fact that the new G5 still has ADC doesn't mean that the new G5s are temporary measures.
There are no new video cards is because ATI and Apple are probably hesitating to develop a new ADC-based card when they both know that DVI LCDs is just around the corner. New videocards won't be sold until 1) PCI express becomes mainstream. 2) Apple DVI LCDs are sold in quantity.
If anything it would have to be a Power5 derived chip (975, 980, whatever the name), and that might not happen before September/October. Even if it is true that IBM plans to ship this chip in July, it'll still take 2-3 months to build enough inventory to actually introduce a product.
Would Apple unveil it at SIGGRAPH mid August? Hard to tell. Maybe the whole SIGGRAPH presence wasn't planned like that? Those booths need to be booked many months in advance, perhaps at a time when Apple was still hopeful for better yields and earlier introductions?
But it could all be completely different:
New Power5 derived CPUs available, but 'slow'?
These new chips might actually be available next month, but due to the same 90nm issues, might not go any faster than 2.5 odd GHz either, far below the magical 3GHz. However since they are Power5 derived chips with hyperthreading their performance is still a lot better than similarly clocked 970fx chips, hence worth for Apple to use.
Running hot?
Their cooling issues might be even worse than with the 970fx. To a point where the cooling is physically still possible, but so expensive that Apple can no longer put them into PowerMacs without raising their prices substantially. At that point Apple might have decided to create a new 'MacStation' line for them which will have faster performance yet more expensive cooling.
With new displays?
And it could indeed be that the new displays, especially the 30" model, are intended for those 'MacStations'.
Introduction at WWDC?
PowerMac G5s got introduced at WWDC so developers could learn about the software changes required for this new type of processor. Perhaps the same is true for the Power5 derived chip (let's call it the 'G6')? Perhaps IBM's variant of hyperthreading (and other new hardware features planned) also require broad changes in application development?
So perhaps Steve Jobs will introduce a 'MacStation' at WWDC - much to our surprise.
But what in all this seems a more tangible issue is the lack of a cheap modular machine. If you already own a good display and want to trade up to a new Mac, your cheapest choice is a $1999 PowerMac G5, which isn't really available at that price since we all know that its 256MB RAM is not nearly enough. No matter how you look at it, the cheapest modular Mac is a $2000+ affair.
The entry model price hike from $1799 to $2000+ opened the field for a 'PowerMac mini' ('NuCube', whatever).
If I'd have to chose between a 'MacStation' at WWDC or a 'PowerMac mini', I think the latter is more likely.
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Besides with Selective Refresh, only screen changes are pushed to the display, so no need to push the entire resolution to the screen on each refresh.
I don't think that will work for games or fullscreen video.
Originally posted by Whisper
I don't think that will work for games or fullscreen video.
Yes, but with a dual-link DVI you won't have to worry - besides not too many games support that resolution anyway. In the future perhaps...