I don't understand Apple

Posted:
in Current Mac Hardware edited January 2014
Why Apple lowered the memory on the GF4MX card, from 64 MB to 32MB on the 867 dual ?



And why they lowered the memory on the L3 from 2 MB to 1 MB ? This has a big impact on performances.



Just to reduce the price ? I can't believe this !



Apparently, from many sources, the new 1 GHz dual isn't faster than the previous model. What gives ?



And I've heard that the holes on the front panel aren't for air cooling. No ports there, and they are closed by a silver plate. They're useless apparently ! Just decoration ? Or designed only for AirPort if you buy that feature ?



It seems the new PM are crippled.



[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: Kali ]</p>

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 19
    I don't understand them either. But I love um. I would still give my two front teeth to work for Apple.
  • Reply 2 of 19
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,268member
    [quote] Just to reduce the price ? I can't believe this ! <hr></blockquote>



    Well you better believe it.
  • Reply 3 of 19
    lucaluca Posts: 3,833member
    Umm... let's see, what has Apple done to cut prices or separate product lines in the past?



    1. Clocked the IIsi at 20 MHz despite every single part being capable of 25 MHz.



    2. Made the Mac Classic. An obsolete six-year-old CPU in an old case, with memory even harder to upgrade than on previous compacts, and no PDS slot.



    3. Hobbled numerous computers (LC, LC II, Mac TV, Color Classic, IIvx, etc) with a 16-bit data bus, making them extremely slow.



    4. Put a 10MB RAM ceiling on the LC II, even though you had to have 12MB in the machine in order for the 10MB to register (you had to waste 2MB of RAM).



    5. Disabled hardware handshaking in the 5200-5300 and 6200-6300, reducing max modem speed to 9600 baud. Hardware handshaking was present even in the Mac Plus!



    6. Put an IDE rather than a SCSI hard drive in the Performa/Quadra 630, back when IDE was super slow and SCSI was the standard.



    7. Removed the feature of automatically shutting off the monitor when the computer was shut down.



    8. Promised 7200 owners an upgrade path, then didn't provide one.



    9. Added mezzanine slot to iMac, but when they saw that mezzanine upgrades may actually catch on, they quickly killed the slot because it would allow too many people to upgrade.



    10. Shipped first-run G3/233 PowerBooks with no L2 cache, reducing performance to just above a top-end 3400. Same goes for the PowerBook 1400/117MHz.



    11. Skimped on good, durable paint for Titanium PowerBooks, instead using cheap stuff that melts, bubbles, and flakes.



    12. Made shoddy hinges on Wallstreet PowerBooks and then denied it.



    13. Supplied only 64MB of RAM with iBooks even though a minimum of 128MB was required to run OS X (not the default OS, but it did ship with iBooks).



    14. Still doesn't supply a PC card slot with the iBook, or a removable hard drive, or monitor spanning even though it's possible.



    15. Many Macs only support mirroring, which is fine except that they only support it at a resolution less than or equal to the built in monitor.



    16. Removed or reduced L3 cache from every low-end tower since the towers have had L3 cache.



    17. Crippled 500MHz iBooks with a 66MHz bus, as well as starving all their other computers (until now with the new PowerMacs) with wimpy 100-133 MHz bus speeds.



    18. Still ship the eMac stand separately, even though it's virtually a necessity.



    19. Charge too much for a prettied-up iTools package (.mac) and don't allow existing OS X users to upgrade to Jaguar.



    That enough of a list for ya? I don't hate Apple, I am just aware of their track record, and I know to expect disappointment much of the time.
  • Reply 4 of 19
    trevormtrevorm Posts: 841member
    [quote]Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:

    <strong>Umm... let's see, what has Apple done to cut prices or separate product lines in the past?



    1. Clocked the IIsi at 20 MHz despite every single part being capable of 25 MHz.



    2. Made the Mac Classic. An obsolete six-year-old CPU in an old case, with memory even harder to upgrade than on previous compacts, and no PDS slot.



    3. Hobbled numerous computers (LC, LC II, Mac TV, Color Classic, IIvx, etc) with a 16-bit data bus, making them extremely slow.



    4. Put a 10MB RAM ceiling on the LC II, even though you had to have 12MB in the machine in order for the 10MB to register (you had to waste 2MB of RAM).



    5. Disabled hardware handshaking in the 5200-5300 and 6200-6300, reducing max modem speed to 9600 baud. Hardware handshaking was present even in the Mac Plus!



    6. Put an IDE rather than a SCSI hard drive in the Performa/Quadra 630, back when IDE was super slow and SCSI was the standard.



    7. Removed the feature of automatically shutting off the monitor when the computer was shut down.



    8. Promised 7200 owners an upgrade path, then didn't provide one.



    9. Added mezzanine slot to iMac, but when they saw that mezzanine upgrades may actually catch on, they quickly killed the slot because it would allow too many people to upgrade.



    10. Shipped first-run G3/233 PowerBooks with no L2 cache, reducing performance to just above a top-end 3400. Same goes for the PowerBook 1400/117MHz.



    11. Skimped on good, durable paint for Titanium PowerBooks, instead using cheap stuff that melts, bubbles, and flakes.



    12. Made shoddy hinges on Wallstreet PowerBooks and then denied it.



    13. Supplied only 64MB of RAM with iBooks even though a minimum of 128MB was required to run OS X (not the default OS, but it did ship with iBooks).



    14. Still doesn't supply a PC card slot with the iBook, or a removable hard drive, or monitor spanning even though it's possible.



    15. Many Macs only support mirroring, which is fine except that they only support it at a resolution less than or equal to the built in monitor.



    16. Removed or reduced L3 cache from every low-end tower since the towers have had L3 cache.



    17. Crippled 500MHz iBooks with a 66MHz bus, as well as starving all their other computers (until now with the new PowerMacs) with wimpy 100-133 MHz bus speeds.



    18. Still ship the eMac stand separately, even though it's virtually a necessity.



    19. Charge too much for a prettied-up iTools package (.mac) and don't allow existing OS X users to upgrade to Jaguar.



    That enough of a list for ya? I don't hate Apple, I am just aware of their track record, and I know to expect disappointment much of the time.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Ouch!!! But true!

    <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
  • Reply 5 of 19
    kalikali Posts: 634member
    Luca Rescigno :



    I can't verify your claims, but I have the impression they are all right.



    Then, you must continue this work and update your list as soon as Apple is doing other cheap tricks. It's an important list. I hate companies who are doing this fooling around.



    Good work !
  • Reply 6 of 19
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,268member
    Tactics like these are no different than most companies with strategies on how to extract the most profit from their products.
  • Reply 7 of 19
    The thing is...Apple's 'tricks' aint 'cheap'.



    They come with at a nasty premium.



    Lemon Bon Bon





    PS. Like the list. You don't keep a grudge by any chance?
  • Reply 8 of 19
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    I'm not so sure you can really call these tricks. Well, you can: they are, but not so bad as one may think.



    Look in terms of the models that are replaced and you find you give up very little.



    The 800 had a 32MB Radeon7500 and NO L3 on a SINGLE 800.



    The DP867 gives you an extra CPU (and both have 1MB L3) for a total of 2MB L3 and 1 extra CPU that the 800 never had. It's GPU also REMAINS at 32MB, and it has a much improved inner case for 100 dollars more. Plus DDR for the rest of the system I/O.



    The SP933 had a 64MB GF4MX and 2MB L3 on ONE CPU.



    It is replaced with TWO 1Ghz CPU's with 1MB L3 each. Same total L3 but one extra CPU and a 166Mhz FSB vs a 133Mhz bus on the outgoing model. Instead of a GF4MX, you now get a Radeon9000, same 64MB.



    The dual 1Ghz is replaced by a dual 1.25 both with 2MB per CPU of L3, but the newer model has 25% faster CPU's and a 25% faster system bus, plus all the aforementioned case and memory abndwidth to I/O improvements.



    Each model now offers more than the outgoing model did for similar money. When you compare price-points, they are all better than the machines they replace, especially the bottom two models.



    I agree, it tricks the mind a little (the GPU and L3 tricks of the DP867 and DP1Ghz) but the machines are still an improvement over the models they replace.



    You can't compare old to new models based on similarities of spec. You have to compare them based on PRICE-POINTS, at that level, the new machines are significantly improved offerings.
  • Reply 9 of 19
    lucaluca Posts: 3,833member
    I should probably copy that list to a text file... I just wrote it from memory (well, a little bit of searching the Low End Mac Road Apple list). Again, I'm not saying Apple is bad, it's just that they are just as guilty of compromising their products to save costs as any other company. It's a fact of business.



    Now some things, like the incredible list of problems with the 5200-5300 and 6200-6300, are inexcusable. There was much more than a lack of hardware handshaking... the complete list is here: <a href="http://www.lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml"; target="_blank">http://www.lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml</a>;

    It's too long to go into in a single post, unless you want another post as long as the one I just did. The only redeeming factor (and there is only one) of the 5200-5300 series is that they are now extremely cheap. The complete, all-in-one system including keyboard and mouse probably costs less than either the computer or the monitor for other, similar PowerMacs.
  • Reply 10 of 19
    kiu77kiu77 Posts: 68member
    I too think the new PMs are "better" than the past and I have ordered one.

    But Luca Rescigno:

    Your List should be a little bit longer:



    20. Removing Audio-In for Cube, Quicksilver and reimplementing it ( ) füor the new duals.

    21: Puck Mouse for G3 B/W and first G4s. This was not an accident: Its a real shame for Apple: Pooh!

    22: Current keyboard I: Its a thing worth $10 an not more. Shift key needs to much force and the key dictances are small (PoReSdSdIoMnGh two keys at once to often).

    23. Current keybord II: Apple removed the power-on-key. I therefore have to start my mac (sitting on floor) with my right foot. More than shame for 10 cent of material cost cut.

    24. Actual mouse: No scroll wheel in 2002



    25. Only two USB-Ports. My $500 PC has 4.

    26. ADC - who needs this? Expensive to realize and in typical apple Manner incompatible with the rest of the monitor world.

    27. GBit ethernet. Expensive. Not needed in a prosumer machine. Professionals will spend the money if they need GBit really.

    28. The internal modem. Mostly useles device. The german situation is: more than 50% of computer users have ISDN or DSL-connections (about 2,5 mio alone). But you have to spend the money for it. I personally will buy my third useless modem next week.



    But anyway: My coming Dual will be my 18th mac.

    Call me a masochist somehow

    ---

    There are no facts - just interpretations
  • Reply 11 of 19
    [quote]

    Originally Posted By kiu77:



    25. Only two USB-Ports. My $500 PC has 4.


    <hr></blockquote>



    They do have 4, 2 on the tower, 2 on the keyboard.



    [quote]

    Originally Posted By kiu77:



    26. ADC - who needs this? Expensive to realize and in typical apple Manner incompatible with the rest of the monitor world.


    <hr></blockquote>



    It is compatible because it comes with a VGA adapter.



    [quote]

    Originally Posted By kiu77:



    28. The internal modem. Mostly useles device. The german situation is: more than 50% of computer users have ISDN or DSL-connections (about 2,5 mio alone). But you have to spend the money for it. I personally will buy my third useless modem next week.


    <hr></blockquote>



    You don't have to spend the money for it. You can simply subtract it, I know because I just did on my new dualie machine (saved a whopping $29 dollars)



    For the most part I understand what you were trying to say though.



    -CFPC



    [ 08-18-2002: Message edited by: ConvertedFromPC ]</p>
  • Reply 12 of 19
    woozlewoozle Posts: 64member
    They arent donig it to cut costs ( although some o f their past brain farts may have been to ), but rather to distinguish the products.



    It would cost them nothing to enable dual monitor out on the iBook, or the iMac.



    The cost would be negligible to have 64mb mx4, or 2mb cache on the 867.



    It would cost nothing to have a 166 mhz bus on the 867.



    But if they did those things, then their high end, high margin, high price machines would have very little to recommend them.
  • Reply 13 of 19
    kiu77kiu77 Posts: 68member
    Just a little "reply":



    USB: there are 4 on the PC - free ones

    cause the keybord and mose use PS2 (not nice but 4 USB port are left). All ports are able to sink the 0,5 A cureent to external devices.

    Apples 4-port-myth (or even worse 5-port-myth on iMacs) is laughable because if you stick the keyboard to the tower and a mouse to the keyboard there are 2 ports left and not four. And one of them is at keyboard side and not capable of delivering enough power for USV-powerd devices. What Apple and ConvertedFromPC does in german is called a "Milchmädchenrechnung" - shure comparing apples and bananas...



    ADC: I said: Its to expensive and a typical lonesome ride of Apple without much sense. My old G4 had no VGA-converted bundled free and I would not had used such a thing. Instead I owned a DVI-capable LCD an therefor had to buy a $50,- adapter ADC-to-DVI. Now the situation is better. The new dual Hoovers have DVI and I can sell my adapter via eBay.



    Modem: This argument goes in wrong direction:

    Moden should not include but could be a built-to-order option. In Germany Apples hardware via their webshop is overpriced (? 2200 = $1900 without local tax) and therefore I buy cheaper from

    other sources. So you cant buy built to order and you have to buy the standard configurations. I ask you: Why not putting a isdn modem stanard for USA-configurations. It too would be mostly useless.



    But: There are no facts - just interpretations
  • Reply 14 of 19
    paulpaul Posts: 5,278member
    [quote]Originally posted by woozle:

    <strong>The cost would be negligible to have 64mb mx4, or 2mb cache on the 867.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    L3 Cache is very expensive... going from 2MB per machine to 4MB er machine is something like a $150+ upgrade.... its because you have to design the chips with the mem on-board (or something, programmer can explain it much better then i can...)



    but your other points are valid...



    also, i think it will be relatively easy to overclock the 867s to 1ghz by jumping the bus to 167 kinda like the old iBooks going from 66---&gt;100 and 500--&gt;600 you just have to get different ram...
  • Reply 15 of 19
    chaleschales Posts: 16member
    Supposedly Apple took out the power button on the keyboard because driving a power signal through USB was causing problems. I don't know the exact specifics but it was on these lines.
  • Reply 16 of 19
    rampancyrampancy Posts: 363member
    [quote]Originally posted by Kali:

    <strong>Why Apple lowered the memory on the GF4MX card, from 64 MB to 32MB on the 867 dual ?



    Apparently, from many sources, the new 1 GHz dual isn't faster than the previous model. What gives ?



    [ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: Kali ]</strong><hr></blockquote>



    My rationalization is that the present Dual-1 Ghz is the midrange model, while the old once was Apple's top of the line model. If you really wanted to make the comparison fair, you'd compare the present midrange model with last year's midrange model, the single processor 933 Mhz G4. After all, they were priced similarly and fit the same position in Apple's product line.
  • Reply 17 of 19
    And I've heard that the holes on the front panel aren't for air cooling. No ports there, and they are closed by a silver plate. They're useless apparently ! Just decoration ? Or designed only for AirPort if you buy that feature ?



    I went to my local Apple store yesterday and took a close look at the front ports. The silver plate behind the ports is not blocking the ports, infact if you put your cheek next to the ports you can feel the air entering the ports. The way it is designed gives you an optical illusion, but the bottom of the ports (towards the bottom of the case) is actualy open.



    I am waiting for my dual 1 Ghz with dual 17" monitors!
  • Reply 18 of 19
    rogue27rogue27 Posts: 607member
    I would guess that the 66Mhz iBooks was to use up the 66mhz motherboards. I mean, they don't want to just throw them out, you know?



    Anyway, a lot of the things done are for differentiation. They need there to be some reasons to buy the high end models, and every thing (like gobs of l3 cache) can't just be included for free.



    It's actually amazing that the new towers have L3. That stuff is not cheap.
  • Reply 19 of 19
    kalikali Posts: 634member
    Thanks Analog, about the air events on the front panel.



    you make me feel better !



    And what kind of plastic cover the front panel ? Transparent plastic over a gray one, like the sides ?
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