I wish some of these mockups...

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
...took into account this thing I like to call the "reality of engineering constraints."



The *reality* is that the G5's are HOT HOT HOT...Pentium Jokes Level Hot.



The most practical, and realistic, designs are going to employ some kind of "chimney" because that heat has to escape...and the heat is orders of magnitude higher than yer G4 is going to put out.



Since apple insists on the thing being an all in one, my guess is something akin to having a G4 Cube-esque "cpu" with a tiltable screen on the front.



That is to say, the the guts of the machine won't be strappe the the back of the display, but form a base for it somehow.



The vast majority of the PowerMac G5's volume is dedicated to *cooling* the CPU. Even the liquid cooled new ones have, volumerically, an *active* cooling system that is the size of the G4 Cube, so there is no reason to even imagine that they will be able to get away from this limitation.



The biggest limitation I think of the whole Imac G5 (outside of ridiculous pie-in-the-sky specs because people want AlienWare spec at Gateway Prices) is the insistence of Apple to make it an All in One in the first damned place



All of this is to say that while Apple has skills, talents and a whole lot of ingenuity, they can't fight the heat beast, so i'd like to see a talented markup or two that take this reality into account



-K

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 16
    That's why I'd like to see dual G4s as an alternative. A dual 1.5 G4 (7447A) would make one hell of a machine ... or even in the future a dual core machine!



    If you look at the distributed.net CPU benchmark statistics you'll see that for example for the RC5-72 crypto benchmark a 1.5GHz G4 (7447A) gets the same (or better) key rate than a 2.0GHz G5!



    The G4 ain't dead yet, specially if you need low power / Heat emission CPUs!



    I'd rather see a Dual G4 iMac than a measly 1.8GHz G5 version!!!
  • Reply 2 of 16
    pbpb Posts: 4,233member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BNOYHTUAWB

    If you look at the distributed.net CPU benchmark statistics you'll see that for example for the RC5-72 crypto benchmark a 1.5GHz G4 (7447A) gets the same (or better) key rate than a 2.0GHz G5!



    The G4 ain't dead yet, specially if you need low power / Heat emission CPUs!



    I'd rather see a Dual G4 iMac than a measly 1.8GHz G5 version!!!




    The benchmark you are referring to, is heavily Altivec optimized and this is the reason the G4 excels in this test. Don't forget that a G5 will beat to death a G4 of the same clock speed in FPU tests or when there are massive amounts of data to move around for the calculations.
  • Reply 3 of 16
    Quote:

    Originally posted by PB

    The benchmark you are referring to, is heavily Altivec optimized and this is the reason the G4 excels in this test. Don't forget that a G5 will beat to death a G4 of the same clock speed in FPU tests or when there are massive amounts of data to move around for the calculations.



    A dual 1.5GHz G4 will leave a 1.8GHz G5 sitting in the dust in no time! So again I'd rather see a 2x1.5 7447a than 1 1x1.8G5!
  • Reply 4 of 16
    gamblorgamblor Posts: 446member
    Quote:

    The most practical, and realistic, designs are going to employ some kind of "chimney" because that heat has to escape...and the heat is orders of magnitude higher than yer G4 is going to put out.



    Wow. Orders of magnitude higher? So if a G4 gets to, say, 55 degrees C under full load then a G5 will be 5500 degrees (at least? perhaps 55000)? I had no idea the heat problem with the new 970FX chips was so bad!
  • Reply 5 of 16
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by RnSK

    All of this is to say that while Apple has skills, talents and a whole lot of ingenuity, they can't fight the heat beast, so i'd like to see a talented markup or two that take this reality into account



    I have a slightly different take on the situation.



    If CPU manufacturers are unable to increase speeds without increasing heat output, then cooling systems will evolve past today's primitive chunk of metal and cheap fan.



    Liquid cooling is simple, reliable, and used in hundreds of billions of consumer products every day. If heat really is a serious limiter, computer makers will simply spend an extra few dollars on mass producing a solution. It really isn't that hard or expensive to pump liquid a few inches from the CPU to a radiator.



    There is no heat crisis.

    (At least in desktop computing)
  • Reply 6 of 16
    banchobancho Posts: 1,517member
    It would also be fair to point out that the Powermacs' rather large heatsink/fan arrangement is designed to keep *two* processors cool *quietly*. On the iMac they will only need work about the quiet aspect and will not require quite the chunk of metal that the Powermac uses. The heat could also be sunk to the back of the display which could be perforated/ribbed to help keep everything happy.



    The "orders of magnitude" comment made me smile though. I can see it now...



    "this new iMac is great but why is the wallpaper turning black?"



    edit - some of the mockups are a bit unrealistic though and some dramatically so.
  • Reply 7 of 16
    elricelric Posts: 230member
    Why don't they just use something like a Peltier device to get the heat away from the cpu into a heat sink and then use a small fan to disperse it? You could even use more peltier devices to move heat around to other heat sinks dispersing it even more and not have just 1 big heat sink but several small ones that can be cooled easily.
  • Reply 8 of 16
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    I completely agree Elric.



    There are plenty of cooling solutions other than the typical $0.43 fan pointed at a hunk of metal. The reason why we don't see other solutions isn't that the other solutions are very expensive or complicated.



    Rather, if you can get away with next to zero engineering and material cost, why not? Now that it seems new CPUs will require better cooling, better cooling will be included.



    While, factory standard liquid cooling will cost more than a couple cheap fans, it still won't comprise a significant percentage of the total machine's cost.
  • Reply 9 of 16
    Great point about making a water cooled iMac. Here is a really old thread all about liquid cooling. Pretty funny when looking back on it.
  • Reply 10 of 16
    rnskrnsk Posts: 35member
    heheh I didn't say how many orders of magnitude, lol...sheesh.



    The point is tho' that this particurlar cpu is hella hot so if folks wanna pretend to be Apple Industrial Design they need to design for what we have to work with...ya' know?



    And, while I'm sure there is *plenty* of room for markup, i don't think the idea is to make a $500 State Of The art Cooling system for a $1200 computer with a $15 GPU just to make it smaller...folks here are already in enough pain as it is, as they sit behind their (chuckle) 2nd Gen Best Buy iMac G3's telling Apple what to do.



    I mean, really, if you have an old azz machine like that Apple knows they ain't getting any money outta ya and don't design for *that* crowd anyway.



    If you aren't getting a new Mac on the PC schedule (every couple years, at the worse) and turning the old one over while its still got a reasonable value, then a G4 Mdoor will be a computing boon for ya, so I'm not sure what all the whining about "My Fantasy iMac G5" is about anyway.



    Its going to be "ugly" or "too expensive" or "crippled" anyway, right?



    I can't wait for the moans of "is that IT?!?" tomorrow...tee-hee



    -K
  • Reply 11 of 16
    banchobancho Posts: 1,517member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by RnSK

    heheh I didn't say how many orders of magnitude, lol...sheesh.



    The point is tho' that this particurlar cpu is hella hot so if folks wanna pretend to be Apple Industrial Design they need to design for what we have to work with...ya' know?



    And, while I'm sure there is *plenty* of room for markup, i don't think the idea is to make a $500 State Of The art Cooling system for a $1200 computer with a $15 GPU just to make it smaller...folks here are already in enough pain as it is, as they sit behind their (chuckle) 2nd Gen Best Buy iMac G3's telling Apple what to do.



    I mean, really, if you have an old azz machine like that Apple knows they ain't getting any money outta ya and don't design for *that* crowd anyway.



    If you aren't getting a new Mac on the PC schedule (every couple years, at the worse) and turning the old one over while its still got a reasonable value, then a G4 Mdoor will be a computing boon for ya, so I'm not sure what all the whining about "My Fantasy iMac G5" is about anyway.



    Its going to be "ugly" or "too expensive" or "crippled" anyway, right?



    I can't wait for the moans of "is that IT?!?" tomorrow...tee-hee



    -K




    Even one order of magnitude would make it 10 times hotter than a G4 by your estimation .
  • Reply 12 of 16
    spcmsspcms Posts: 407member
    I don't even think you can compare the orders of magnitude of two temperatures.



    I do think i can be completely wrong about this.
  • Reply 13 of 16
    rnskrnsk Posts: 35member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Bancho

    Even one order of magnitude would make it 10 times hotter than a G4 by your estimation .



    Regardless, its too hot to be strapped onto the back of the display with fanatasy Tablet-fu



    -K
  • Reply 14 of 16
    banchobancho Posts: 1,517member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by RnSK

    Regardless, its too hot to be strapped onto the back of the display with fanatasy Tablet-fu



    -K




    I'm no tablet fanatic. I despise the idea of a tablet computer (for general computing use).
  • Reply 15 of 16
    "Sir, how did you manage give yourself a third degree burn on your lap?"

    "Well, I got this new imac from Apple..."
  • Reply 16 of 16
    Quote:

    Originally posted by RnSK

    The vast majority of the PowerMac G5's volume is dedicated to *cooling* the CPU. Even the liquid cooled new ones have, volumerically, an *active* cooling system that is the size of the G4 Cube, so there is no reason to even imagine that they will be able to get away from this limitation.



    Volumetrically, the processors and their cooling system take up about a third of the volume of the Power Mac, and as others have pointed out, that's for two processors. The cooling zones for the optical drive, PCI slots and power supply are discrete and don't contribute to the cooling for the processor area.



    Not that one-sixth of that dishwasher-sized case is anything you could call small, but let's not make things worse than they are.



    I still think we'll see something more like the G4 iMac than not: a base containing all the guts, but with an arm like the new displays (allowing you to change the angle but not swivel). That would be cheaper to produce than the current arm, and allow for different sizes of displays with little re-engineering. I just don't see Apple strapping a motherboard to the back of the display and forcing you to hang a lot of ugly FireWire and USB cables from it. Not to mention the fact that, if heat is such an issue, wouldn't that heat affect the life of the LCD if it was radiating into it all day?



    My other guess would be motherboard attached to the display, but (heavy) hard drive and optical drive in the base. But that doesn't address the issue of cable clutter or heat on the display.
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