How does iBook compare to PC Laptops?

Posted:
in Current Mac Hardware edited January 2014
An earlier thread discussed the Powerbook against PC laptops.

This is about how the new iBooks compare.



Based on a quick check at a local store's flyer, the iBook is getting closer. The video card is better but it sorely lacks needs a faster processor.



Toshiba Satellite 1.8 P4,

512K L2 cache

40GB hard drive

Combo drive

NVidia GeForce 4 420 Go 16MB DDR video

15" display

=$2499 CDN.



compared to the 14" iBook



800MHz PowerPC G3

512K L2 cache @800MHz

256MB SDRAM memory

30GB Ultra ATA drive

ATI Radeon 7500

32MB dedicated video memory

Combo Drive

=$2599 CDN

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 20
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    The low-end ibook still competes agiants Celron laptops, and sinch Ceron is argueably the crapiest processor every made (with todays technology), the answer is a given... The 999$ ibook is incredible...



    The highter end ibook is basically aimed at people who have are already mac-friendly. The pc (at least toshiba) competitors are arguably better, but the os(application package) makes the difference here...



    [ 11-09-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
  • Reply 2 of 20
    g-newsg-news Posts: 1,107member
    I tend to disagree: the ones using mobile pentium chips are going to run DOG slow as soon as the line power is disconnected, basically rendering them useless for anything else than surfing the web and typing stuff, while even an iBook is a solid performer on battery power, especially considering it easily has twice or even 3 times the battery life of a normal PC notebook.

    The notebooks using non-mobile chips have fans and battery lives as low as 30 min with line power disconnected, thus only making up for a small and compact/portable, but not mobile desktop replacement.



    The iBook can compete with both, and actually even with PC subnotebooks like some smaller VAIO models.



    IMHO the iBook is currently the (and has been) best offer from Apple in a very long time. VERY long.



    G-News
  • Reply 3 of 20
    klinuxklinux Posts: 453member
    I, too, think an iBook is great - in fact, I am typing on one right now.



    Just like how most PC users misunderstand Macs, many Mac users also misunderstand PC as well.



    For example, I would argue that Celeron, however, usually represents excellent performance/value ratio. Unless your applications really need the extra performance and the L3 cache, one would hardly notice the difference between a Celeron and a Pentium III/IV. Celeron is also a favorite for gamers too because of its easy overclockability. Case in point, the new 13 micron Celeron 2 ghz chips easily go up to 2.6 to 3 ghz. A system based on that chip can cost &lt;$500.



    As for G-news, you make it sound like you are constantly use 100% of your CPU all the time. Furthermore, you do know iBooks also has the feature of dropping mhz when it's not needed right? If you want to talk strictly performace, a mobile P4 whether on AC or DC, kills the performance of a G3 anyday.



    Apple makes great laptops that satisfies majority of its users - which is great and I would say there is not really an obvious counterpart in the PC world. However, the PC laptop market is diverse enough that one has the option to choose the laptop best suited to his or her needs. So for $1300, I want a full-fledged desktop replacement that uses the desktop CPU and gets 1 hr of batt life but my wife wants the 2.7 lb subnote that gets 5 hrs of batt life. We have that choice in the PC world Apple, despite its great offering, will have to settle for an option that pleases most but not all of its users.



    So each system has its advantages and disadvantages, but let's not distort the facts e.g. many Celerons are well-made and both G3 and mobile Intel CPUs throttle their speed when needed.
  • Reply 4 of 20
    Well said klinux. The new Intel Celeron processors are built on the P4 core. The days of the Celeron being a crapped out chip are over. The average user will never know the difference between a P4 and a new Celeron.



    As I said in another thread, other areas to consider are faster system memory/bus speeds, processor speeds/performance, optical drive speed and HD speed. All these things are usually overlooked when silly comparisons come up as the PC is in favor.



    And for the last time, Intel Speedstep is OPTIONAL. It's also variable and kicks in the power when you need it. Even when you have it enabled, it's performance is still more impressive than a 800Mhz G3. Many high end PC notebooks hold two batteries anyway.



    In this example the comparison is outrageous. Why compare at all? 1.8GHz versus 800MHz? 400MHz bus speed compared to 133MHz? DDR RAM compared to SDRAM? 15" high resolution display compared to 12"? 16X or 24X CDR speed compared to 8X? Come on now, who's calling this close?
  • Reply 5 of 20
    satchmosatchmo Posts: 2,699member
    [quote]Originally posted by Patchouli:

    <strong>

    In this example the comparison is outrageous. Why compare at all? 1.8GHz versus 800MHz? 400MHz bus speed compared to 133MHz? DDR RAM compared to SDRAM? 15" high resolution display compared to 12"? 16X or 24X CDR speed compared to 8X? Come on now, who's calling this close?</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Not me. I said, the iBook is getting closer. But the comparison is valid given the price points are virtually the same.



    That said, I played around with the P4 and Celeron based notebooks today, and let's just say they didn't impress. Found them not very responsive, but that may have to do with Windows XP.



    But also,many of the PC notebooks are ergonomically horrible. Can you clutter anymore buttons and grooves near the trackpad?
  • Reply 6 of 20
    klinuxklinux Posts: 453member
    It's true, most PC laptops designs are horrendous.



    Nevertheless, I do like some of the trackpad designs despite its ugliness. For example, Sony VAIO's allows mouse-gestures, if you will. For example. sliding one's finger across the top of the trackpad is back or forward for surfing, along the right edge is scroll up and down, a swift left upper-corner to right lower corner is to close the program, etc. I found that very convenient and that was also one of the first questions I had when I switched to an iBook to see if there was an equivalent thing in Apple.
  • Reply 7 of 20
    Anybody with an older ibook, say 700-600mgz w/ the 8-16 mg video using quake3. I just converted my linux

    quake3 cd over to 10.2 w/ the most resent patch/update.

    I was amazed at the performence i got. I started at 400by600 res. Then i upped to 800by600 with hiRes Textures and 16 bit textures. I've stopped at that setting, and everything is running great. I would love to find a way to get a fps on quake3. So who else has it on there ibooks?
  • Reply 8 of 20
    mcqmcq Posts: 1,543member
    Patchouli:



    The new iBook's combo drive has 16x CD-R speed.
  • Reply 9 of 20
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    [quote]And for the last time, Intel Speedstep is OPTIONAL. It's also variable and kicks in the power when you need it.<hr></blockquote>



    actually that's not always correct. there was an article just last week about non optional speedstep PC's where the chip speed is cut in half. a 2.4Ghz P4 running at 1.2Ghz is slower than a 900Mhz PIII. an 800Mhz G3 is faster than a 900PIII, so when unplugged, a fullbore G3 will probably outperform a speed stepped P4. but that's just one factor. start talking bus speed and RAM and any processor advantage will probably take a serious hit, although i haven't checked on the bus speed of PC laptops lately.
  • Reply 10 of 20
    Yes, I just checked out the specs and the iBook does indeed have a 16X CDR! This makes it an even better value and a nice little package. I wish there was a slot loading 16X or better drive for the PowerBook. By the way, I have a new 5400rpm 9.5mm 40GB HD that I never used. How hard is it to upgrade the iBook HD? I heard it's a bit difficult, but I've taken PC notebooks apart before and managed ok. Anyone ever try? What size HDs do both the iBook and PowerBook use? Anyone know?



    As far as SpeedStep or any power management on PC laptops are concerned, there still seems to be a bit of confusion. You guys are talking about desktop P4s placed in laptops which serve as desktop replacements (literally, portable desktops). When you unplug them, power from the processor is cut as that kind of power will kill the battery in no time. Desktop chips in notebooks are not the norm and Intel does not recommend it. There is no significant performance increase so the only advantage by doing that is to save money. Remember, Apple's chips run at significantly lower clock speeds so of course there will be a huge difference when comparing desktop chips in notebooks.



    Mobile P4's however are mobile chips that use power more efficiently and are optimized for notebooks. On top of that, they use SpeedStep (or whatever they call it) differently. To tweak the settings, you go into either the BIOS or the Control Panel settings under Power Management you control the processor speed. Some settings include 'Always On' which makes the processor run and full speed, and other settings like 'Portable' make the speed drop by a couple of hundred MHz (not in half) when it is unplugged. I've never noticed the speed difference on any of my PC portables.



    [ 11-11-2002: Message edited by: Patchouli ]</p>
  • Reply 11 of 20
    klinuxklinux Posts: 453member
    [quote]Originally posted by tonton:

    <strong>I'd really like to see a feature by feature comparison of the $999 iBook with the best 12" notebook the PC world has to offer!



    Be sure to go beyond FPS and include things like firewire, internal wireless capability, included software, size and weight, etc.



    I doubt anyone can come up with a better package for Windows. I doubt anyone can even come close.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Hard to do a comparison because you have seemingly already made up your mind but just browsing <a href="http://www.techbargains.com/"; target="_blank">http://www.techbargains.com/</a>; I see two laptops from Staples:



    HP Pavilion ZE400

    Celeron 1.6Ghz 128MB/20GB CD 14.1" Screen, Mobile Radeon Graphics Chip, XP Home, Corel software, Free extra battery for price of one! 30 GB - $799 after rebate.



    Compaq 900Z

    AMD XP1500+ 256MB/20GB 8xDVD 14.1" TFT w/ATI Radeon graphics 10/100 Ethernet XP - after rebate $724.



    Too bad sale expired Saturday.



    Better than iBook, well, that's a personal call and people are bound to disagree. However, I think it is difficult to argue that these laptops are worse then the 12" iBook. This is what one gets for making statements like "I doubt anyone can even come close".



    Oh Alcimedes, I am sure we are bound to disagree on this as well but I am not sure about your statements on 1.2ghz P4 slower than P3 900 Mhz or that 800 Mhz G3 is faster than P3 900 Mhz. We should save this for another thread! Also, I think the 2.4 ghz laptop you mentioend uses a desktop chip and not a mobile chip which is in a different ballpark.
  • Reply 12 of 20
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    now that you mention it, it was one of the desktop chips put in a laptop, which makes a bit more sense. as for the P3 to P4 comparisons, another thread is probably a good idea, although it was discussed to death when the P4's first came out.



    (people were pissed about the speed or lack thereof)
  • Reply 13 of 20
    [quote]Originally posted by Patchouli:

    <strong> By the way, I have a new 5400rpm 9.5mm 40GB HD that I never used. How hard is it to upgrade the iBook HD? I heard it's a bit difficult, but I've taken PC notebooks apart before and managed ok. Anyone ever try? What size HDs do both the iBook and PowerBook use? Anyone know?

    ]</strong><hr></blockquote>



    It's really monstrously hard. You have to take apart the whole thing, and the case fits together very tightly, so just getting it apart can be a struggle, not to mention all of the parts and screws that can go awol. The ibook and the powerbook both use 2.5" drives, but the powerbook can use up to 12.5mm thick drives, while the biggest drive the ibook can use is 9.5mm.
  • Reply 14 of 20
    ast3r3xast3r3x Posts: 5,012member
    i know this would add cost (and perhaps weight) but i was extremely dissapointed when i went to put a cd into my friends laptop and the cd tray just popped out not like automated like a tower drive, i know this is the standard for PC's, but i would have expected me from Apple



    ...not that it really bothers me, just a nice touch apple could have added
  • Reply 15 of 20
    [quote]Originally posted by ast3r3x:

    <strong>i know this would add cost (and perhaps weight) but i was extremely dissapointed when i went to put a cd into my friends laptop and the cd tray just popped out not like automated like a tower drive, i know this is the standard for PC's, but i would have expected me from Apple



    ...not that it really bothers me, just a nice touch apple could have added</strong><hr></blockquote>





    huh? clear as mudd <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
  • Reply 16 of 20
    klinuxklinux Posts: 453member
    Translation: Most optical drive trays are motorized, i.e. pressing the eject button and the disc tray will extend all the way. On my iBook, the the combo drive would pop out a 1/3 of the way and the user has to manually pull the tray out all the way, insert the disc, and push it all the way in.



    I never really noticed that before but now that it is mentioned, it is a glaring ergonimical oversight considering our high expection of Apple products.
  • Reply 17 of 20
    [quote]Originally posted by klinux:

    <strong>Translation: Most optical drive trays are motorized, i.e. pressing the eject button and the disc tray will extend all the way. On my iBook, the the combo drive would pop out a 1/3 of the way and the user has to manually pull the tray out all the way, insert the disc, and push it all the way in.



    I never really noticed that before but now that it is mentioned, it is a glaring ergonimical oversight considering our high expection of Apple products.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Hmm. I see what your saying, but I have not seen a laptop drive that ejects all the way out. I have a work issued IBM and it only pops out half way and you have to pull it the rest of the way. The same goes for the Dells we have here.
  • Reply 18 of 20
    klinuxklinux Posts: 453member
    Oops, my mistake. Walked around office and tried a # of IBM and Dell laptops. All behaved the same way as the iBook i.e not motorized.
  • Reply 19 of 20
    A motorized tray loader wouldn't make a lot of sense in any portable. The motor to drive the tray drains the batteries. While the pop-out version is spring powered. You also have a high chance of obstruction on a portable. I see myself working in a tight space quite often. So the tray wouldn't be able to slide out all the way. I doesn't have to, because I can fit in the CD 2/3 the way as well.

    With a Desktop based machine you usually have the tray floating a little higher which makes it less likely to be obstructed.
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