Yet another 'my beef with Christians' thread.
Okay, so I've never made one before, but I figure it's my turn anyway.
So here it is. Ex-Protestant, currently considering reform-Judaism.
Some of these may have been said before, but I?m trying to be original. First off, living in this heavily Christian nation, it?s very tough to displace myself from the ?social faith?. It permeates business, politics, schools, sports, you name it. I?ve always had a tough time with several aspects of the faith but it wasn?t until I got older that I began to put words to the abstract ideas.
First beef. God creates angels, has foresight of everything (omnipotent) and yet still creates angels. Angel tries to take over, kicked out of heaven. God creates man, again, omnipotent, and knowing full well what his actions will do. Man is given free will, Angel encourages man to exercise free will thus damns all man. So God, in his wisdom, woke up and decided to damn the souls of every man women and child on earth. Not cool. Where is that ?God is love? stuff? Sounds like he only likes to break stuff he creates.
Second beef. Terrible people do terrible things in the name of religions and faiths. Why would I want to associate with them? Same reason we don?t hang out at prisons and make friends with the inmates. In any faith there will be hypocrites, and people who aren?t *truly* faithful. But living in a what seems to me a Christian Cult Country to me means I?m as guilty as they are by association.
Third beef. Basically, anytime you have a valid point about why God doesn?t fit a special little Baptist mold, or Catholic mold, you get hit by ?God works in mysterious ways?. A compassionate all powerful God need not toy with us and diddle himself to be entertained. He can create all the mysteries of the natural world light years beyond our knowledge but can?t seem to keep nations at peace. He can allow companies which pollute his air and make weapons that kill his children but he can?t make sure a rural church has enough money to replace 40 year old hymnals. He can let a cruel dictator survive a stroke, but can kill a mother of 4 who has pneumonia. No, it seems to me that this is a God of many faces, and the perfection man would like to reward him with does not seem to be one he has earned. Evil is blamed on Gods own fallen angel. Though it was God who created him. Something good happens, it?s a divine reward. Something bad happens, mysterious ways.
Fourth beef. You think that if God wanted his faith taken seriously, he?d have left hard irrefutable evidence of his presence. You know, signs and stuff. For whatever reason, he plays ?hidden away pocket God? and by believing in something we cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear, we are some how saved from the plight he put us in. This brings me to my beef with the fall of man. I do not doubt that I am imperfect. In fact, the knowledge that my imperfect self was created in Gods image is very comforting. I believe that God certainly must have a sense of humor.
I can?t sit and watch people spread what amounts to be a highly evolved social plague. If you ?believe? you are saved. Easy enough! God loves you! If you whatever list your sect requires, you are a good believe and must really be saved. But it?s not like heaven is giving out confirmation numbers. If you don?t do as they do, you must not be one of us. Sinner. You go to hell, do not pass go. Am I missing something? You don?t make the rules, God does. And your book could be just as wrong as my book could.
Doh, it?s getting late and I?m drifting. Toss it around. Maybe someone can talk to me and tell me what I?m missing. I believe in God. A God of love. A God who doesn?t frown when I have sex in strange positions. A God which accepts me for who I am, his child, flawed, imperfect, and strange. A God I see in every baby?s smile, and in the mists of the mountains. How has mainstream Christianity drifted so far or has it always been this way?
I also can't swallow that 'you just don't get it stuff'. I DID get it, I DID the Christian thing. But at the end of the day, I wasn't filled in the spirit despite my virtue. I was in a church of people who didn't share anything in common with me. I was a stranger in your land even when I was among you for 15 years. It took more then 10 years after that to screw my head back on right.
So here it is. Ex-Protestant, currently considering reform-Judaism.
Some of these may have been said before, but I?m trying to be original. First off, living in this heavily Christian nation, it?s very tough to displace myself from the ?social faith?. It permeates business, politics, schools, sports, you name it. I?ve always had a tough time with several aspects of the faith but it wasn?t until I got older that I began to put words to the abstract ideas.
First beef. God creates angels, has foresight of everything (omnipotent) and yet still creates angels. Angel tries to take over, kicked out of heaven. God creates man, again, omnipotent, and knowing full well what his actions will do. Man is given free will, Angel encourages man to exercise free will thus damns all man. So God, in his wisdom, woke up and decided to damn the souls of every man women and child on earth. Not cool. Where is that ?God is love? stuff? Sounds like he only likes to break stuff he creates.
Second beef. Terrible people do terrible things in the name of religions and faiths. Why would I want to associate with them? Same reason we don?t hang out at prisons and make friends with the inmates. In any faith there will be hypocrites, and people who aren?t *truly* faithful. But living in a what seems to me a Christian Cult Country to me means I?m as guilty as they are by association.
Third beef. Basically, anytime you have a valid point about why God doesn?t fit a special little Baptist mold, or Catholic mold, you get hit by ?God works in mysterious ways?. A compassionate all powerful God need not toy with us and diddle himself to be entertained. He can create all the mysteries of the natural world light years beyond our knowledge but can?t seem to keep nations at peace. He can allow companies which pollute his air and make weapons that kill his children but he can?t make sure a rural church has enough money to replace 40 year old hymnals. He can let a cruel dictator survive a stroke, but can kill a mother of 4 who has pneumonia. No, it seems to me that this is a God of many faces, and the perfection man would like to reward him with does not seem to be one he has earned. Evil is blamed on Gods own fallen angel. Though it was God who created him. Something good happens, it?s a divine reward. Something bad happens, mysterious ways.
Fourth beef. You think that if God wanted his faith taken seriously, he?d have left hard irrefutable evidence of his presence. You know, signs and stuff. For whatever reason, he plays ?hidden away pocket God? and by believing in something we cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear, we are some how saved from the plight he put us in. This brings me to my beef with the fall of man. I do not doubt that I am imperfect. In fact, the knowledge that my imperfect self was created in Gods image is very comforting. I believe that God certainly must have a sense of humor.
I can?t sit and watch people spread what amounts to be a highly evolved social plague. If you ?believe? you are saved. Easy enough! God loves you! If you whatever list your sect requires, you are a good believe and must really be saved. But it?s not like heaven is giving out confirmation numbers. If you don?t do as they do, you must not be one of us. Sinner. You go to hell, do not pass go. Am I missing something? You don?t make the rules, God does. And your book could be just as wrong as my book could.
Doh, it?s getting late and I?m drifting. Toss it around. Maybe someone can talk to me and tell me what I?m missing. I believe in God. A God of love. A God who doesn?t frown when I have sex in strange positions. A God which accepts me for who I am, his child, flawed, imperfect, and strange. A God I see in every baby?s smile, and in the mists of the mountains. How has mainstream Christianity drifted so far or has it always been this way?
I also can't swallow that 'you just don't get it stuff'. I DID get it, I DID the Christian thing. But at the end of the day, I wasn't filled in the spirit despite my virtue. I was in a church of people who didn't share anything in common with me. I was a stranger in your land even when I was among you for 15 years. It took more then 10 years after that to screw my head back on right.
Comments
Like any of the religions that have really made it, there's a lot to consider about Christianity. I find it odd yet somewhat fitting that you have an interest in Judaism, but I won't go there, as it's not worth it.
Anyway, my advice to you is that you shouldn't consider yourself an "Ex-Protestant" just because you either don't like or don't understand everything about the world and the Christian faith. A lot of smart kids and 20 somethings these days get into this mode of aloof agnostism, which is really an excuse to procrastinate, and/or experiment with fun hedonistic stuff.
What I'm trying to say is that at some point in one's life, if the person has any brain at all, he'll have to determine if he believes in some kind of supernatural power or not, since there most certainly either is or isn't.
Christianity is an interesting faith, in that there's a single god who knows everything, his mission is to spread knowledge, and he likes it when folks show an eagerness to learn. You can construe that in one of many ways, but the bottom line is that it's not just for idiots. Like is the case in any religion or group, you just have to dig deeper to find intelligent, well educated members. I don't think doing something like converting is going to magically throw all of the answers you're looking for into your hand, wither in an instant or over a lifetime. Some of the answers you have will never be answered, and you just have to deal with the fact that you're mortal.
If I can give you just one piece of advice, it would be to chill out for a few years and let fate put you on the right course. Some people are naturally indecisive and will be very firm agnostics, simply because they hate making big decisions. Maybe you are like this, but I doubt it. Anyway, if you're really curious, you should try finding smart and knowledgable folks from various religions, and seeing what they have to say. Trust me, they exist, and are especially easy to locate if you're in college, or are in a college town. Otherwise, just chill out for a few years.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Christianity is an interesting faith, in that there's a single god who knows everything
Sort of...
Can you explain the whole God/Son of God thing for me... you know, the difference between Jesus and God? Or is it the same thing? Did God turn himself into a man and walk on the earth.. is that it? If so, while he was here on Earth for those years.. who was watching over heaven? Where is heaven... or actually where is hell? Is it in the ground? Is there a devil? Why do Christians worship Jesus over God himself?
Also, Is the Bible to be taken literally? What about the Old Testament? Why are there two bibles? Why don't Christians read the original book very often (at all)? If it's not literal, what is it?
Also, is God a conscious entity? Does he impose his will on us? Is my life predetermined? Do I have to accept Christ before I die? If not, will I go to hell?
Thanks.
To find whats wrong in the world and point out flaws is easy, but to find what is good and true is much more difficult.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Ugh. I've heard this rap before, not just from you.
Like any of the religions that have really made it, there's a lot to consider about Christianity. I find it odd yet somewhat fitting that you have an interest in Judaism, but I won't go there, as it's not worth it.
Anyway, my advice to you is that you shouldn't consider yourself an "Ex-Protestant" just because you either don't like or don't understand everything about the world and the Christian faith. A lot of smart kids and 20 somethings these days get into this mode of aloof agnostism, which is really an excuse to procrastinate, and/or experiment with fun hedonistic stuff.
What I'm trying to say is that at some point in one's life, if the person has any brain at all, he'll have to determine if he believes in some kind of supernatural power or not, since there most certainly either is or isn't.
Christianity is an interesting faith, in that there's a single god who knows everything, his mission is to spread knowledge, and he likes it when folks show an eagerness to learn. You can construe that in one of many ways, but the bottom line is that it's not just for idiots. Like is the case in any religion or group, you just have to dig deeper to find intelligent, well educated members. I don't think doing something like converting is going to magically throw all of the answers you're looking for into your hand, wither in an instant or over a lifetime. Some of the answers you have will never be answered, and you just have to deal with the fact that you're mortal.
If I can give you just one piece of advice, it would be to chill out for a few years and let fate put you on the right course. Some people are naturally indecisive and will be very firm agnostics, simply because they hate making big decisions. Maybe you are like this, but I doubt it. Anyway, if you're really curious, you should try finding smart and knowledgable folks from various religions, and seeing what they have to say. Trust me, they exist, and are especially easy to locate if you're in college, or are in a college town. Otherwise, just chill out for a few years.
Splinemodel, thank you so much for your post. This is exactly what I wanted to hear. You really set me to thinking and that is exactly what I felt, but couldn't find the words for. I KNOW there are brilliant Christians, the same way there are brilliant Jews, Atheists etc. I just didn't *think* about it that way. Now that you mention it, I greatly enjoy talking with 'smart' folks about all types of things. I regularly eat lunch with a church elder from my old congregation and he is wise well beyond his years. I'm not so into the hedonistic side of things, and I appreciate not being labeled and flamed as a wild child. I'm just a guy who'd like to figure some things out on his own. I don't discount God, or set about to ruin others faith. I simply need to find what fits my life and makes me complete. You actually got me to go read up on agnostics. Not sure I fit the bill entirely...but I can see where they are coming from. There are just as many a-religious people who are idiots are religious idiots so I'm currently, un-protestant more then an ex-protestant. And the appeal of the Reform Jew thing is more about the fact that it is an evolving faith over time.
Thanks again for your reply. Gosh, why can't there be more people like you in the world? I also appreciate you taking the time to answer even though you have likely heard similar things before. Cheers!
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
Some of these may have been said before, but I?m trying to be original. First off, living in this heavily Christian nation, it?s very tough to displace myself from the ?social faith?. It permeates business, politics, schools, sports, you name it. I?ve always had a tough time with several aspects of the faith but it wasn?t until I got older that I began to put words to the abstract ideas.
I am going to try to address some of what you'ev brought up here. Mind you...I am not an expert...but I have thought through (and trie to educate myself) on some of these things. I don't know that anyone can have definite answers to all of these things...and if God is who/what we think He is...well then His totality is beyond human comprehension. We can see/understand aspects...but not everything. That is where faith must fill in the gap.
I'll take a stab at it though...
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
First beef. God creates angels, has foresight of everything (omnipotent) and yet still creates angels. Angel tries to take over, kicked out of heaven. God creates man, again, omnipotent, and knowing full well what his actions will do. Man is given free will, Angel encourages man to exercise free will thus damns all man. So God, in his wisdom, woke up and decided to damn the souls of every man women and child on earth. Not cool. Where is that ?God is love? stuff? Sounds like he only likes to break stuff he creates.
First, I would say the God isn't the one that is "breaking stuff"...it is the created being that do that.
More to the point however, free will is (I think) a critical aspect of the whole "God thing". Traditional Christian (and Jewish) theology states that God created mankind to love and be loved by. Love (genuine love) requires (in my view) free choice/will. Otherwise it doesn't really look much like love. No with this free will comes risk...risk of rejection and abondonment...and "breaking stuff". This is what happened. Sorry, this is the best answer I have. Someone else can do better I'm sure.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
Second beef. Terrible people do terrible things in the name of religions and faiths. Why would I want to associate with them? Same reason we don?t hang out at prisons and make friends with the inmates. In any faith there will be hypocrites, and people who aren?t *truly* faithful. But living in a what seems to me a Christian Cult Country to me means I?m as guilty as they are by association.
First, you are not guilty by association. You might feel that way. And certainly there are people (some even on these boards
Second, you need to disconnect imperfect humans and their imperfect (even evil) interpretation and execution of God's ideas/plans/visions/etc. from the ideas/plans/visions themselves. This is my "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" argument. More succinctly...just because there are bad Christians doesn't mean God is bad or even that the Christian faith is bad...only that there are bad people and they are using God and the Christian faith to do their own thing.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
Third beef. Basically, anytime you have a valid point about why God doesn?t fit a special little Baptist mold, or Catholic mold, you get hit by ?God works in mysterious ways?.
Well God is a bit (a lot?) mysterious. But that aside, the reason that various factions/sects of Christianity exist is because people are trying to figure God out and think they have done so...and codified their understanding into a particular set of beliefs. So again, this is kind of like the previous issue...Let's not assume that Baptists have it all right (or all wrong)...or Catholics...or whoever. Besides most of the protestant sects are actually pretty close and generally differ on things they consider important but probably are not.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
A compassionate all powerful God need not toy with us and diddle himself to be entertained.
I don't think He does. Why do you?
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
He can create all the mysteries of the natural world light years beyond our knowledge but can?t seem to keep nations at peace. He can allow companies which pollute his air and make weapons that kill his children but he can?t make sure a rural church has enough money to replace 40 year old hymnals. He can let a cruel dictator survive a stroke, but can kill a mother of 4 who has pneumonia. No, it seems to me that this is a God of many faces, and the perfection man would like to reward him with does not seem to be one he has earned. Evil is blamed on Gods own fallen angel. Though it was God who created him. Something good happens, it?s a divine reward. Something bad happens, mysterious ways.
Well the age old question of why does bad stuff happen to good people. I don't know. I don't have any simple, trite answers. Part of the answer, of course, is human free will/choice creating some of the problems you enumerate. Surely there is moer to it that this. I have (queued up on my desk) a book entitled "Is God to Blame" which (I think) attempts to address this question (at least to some degree). Maybe I'll know more after reading it. Maybe less. There is some mystery to all of it.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
Fourth beef. You think that if God wanted his faith taken seriously, he?d have left hard irrefutable evidence of his presence. You know, signs and stuff. For whatever reason, he plays ?hidden away pocket God? and by believing in something we cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear, we are some how saved from the plight he put us in.
What hard, irrefutable evidence would you like? Some ideas? Suggestions? What would prove God?
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
I can?t sit and watch people spread what amounts to be a highly evolved social plague.
That's a bit harsh (I think)...but you'll likely find a friend in MarcUK and segovius.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
If you don?t do as they do, you must not be one of us. Sinner. You go to hell, do not pass go. Am I missing something? You don?t make the rules, God does. And your book could be just as wrong as my book could.
Well, I think, again you are mixing the human execution of things with God himself. Just an observation.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
Doh, it?s getting late and I?m drifting. Toss it around. Maybe someone can talk to me and tell me what I?m missing. I believe in God. A God of love. A God who doesn?t frown when I have sex in strange positions. A God which accepts me for who I am, his child, flawed, imperfect, and strange. A God I see in every baby?s smile, and in the mists of the mountains.
I think this is exactly right. I think you are on the right track here. You might need to become comfortable with a) the imperfection of man and (especially) man in large groups...but also the mystery of God.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
I also can't swallow that 'you just don't get it stuff'. I DID get it, I DID the Christian thing. But at the end of the day, I wasn't filled in the spirit despite my virtue. I was in a church of people who didn't share anything in common with me. I was a stranger in your land even when I was among you for 15 years. It took more then 10 years after that to screw my head back on right.
Well I don't know what your experience has been. Many people have had (what sounds like) similar experiences. It is unfortunate.
Originally posted by Akumulator
Sort of...
Can you explain the whole God/Son of God thing for me... you know, the difference between Jesus and God? Or is it the same thing? Did God turn himself into a man and walk on the earth.. is that it? If so, while he was here on Earth for those years.. who was watching over heaven? Where is heaven... or actually where is hell? Is it in the ground? Is there a devil? Why do Christians worship Jesus over God himself?
Also, Is the Bible to be taken literally? What about the Old Testament? Why are there two bibles? Why don't Christians read the original book very often (at all)? If it's not literal, what is it?
Also, is God a conscious entity? Does he impose his will on us? Is my life predetermined? Do I have to accept Christ before I die? If not, will I go to hell?
Thanks.
Maybe I can help, I hope. Jesus is just one person of God. He God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. See the following link for the 'he is many but he is one thing' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity...nd_the_Trinity) So no, he didn't 'turn into man' and just leave heaven. A portion of the trinity became man and came to earth for a short time. So he was still in Heaven then too. Heaven and Hell don't have absolute locations, think of them as more like 'another dimension' or as a concept to be revealed at the end of time. Yes there is a devil, he is the fallen angel Lucifer. Kicked out of heaven along with 1/3 of the other angels for revolting. Christians should worship both God and Jesus as one. You can refer to him with either name, although Jesus is often seen as the intercessor (spokesperson) for us to God. He is also the savior.
The Bible is a collection of many different types of writing. It should be taken as that. That means some parts are poetry (not commands) and other parts are simply history (not commands) and still other parts are letters written by Apostles. So yes, you should take it seriously, and the lessons learned from it should be taken literally, even if the verbage isn't. There are two halves to the bible because it is a complilation of numerous writings by many people all of which were guided by God. Christians don't read a lot of things, nor do most people these days. Besides, some parts of the bible are quite dull, while others are very exciting an uplifting.
As for the nature of God, I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. What is consciousness to one that creates it?
Does he impose will on us? How would we know if he did? Is your life predetermined? Hum... think about it as free as you want to make it, realizing that whatever you chose, it was forseen. So Foreseen, but not Predetermined. Yes you have to accept Christ before you die if you want to go to heaven and avoid hell.
Hope these are correct, spot check as needed others.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
That means some parts are poetry (not commands) and other parts are simply history (not commands) and still other parts are letters written by Apostles.
I would add to this...my (current) pastor pointed out that some things in the Bible are "descriptive" and some things are "prescriptive"...meaning:
1. Some text describes something that happened (historically). I may or may not also be "prescriptive" (i.e., a designation of something that should be done).
2. Things that are "prescriptve" are things that should be done (commands, strong suggestions, etc.) And even these things might be further divided into things that were prescribed at some point in time, but are not now.
Of course it is important to read things in context and understand the context in order to best understand and interpret them...no differently than anything we read today.
My answer to you is simply: follow your instincts.
The world seems to be geared towards pre-packaged ideals and tends to look down upon those that don't conform. Think about it: you're either a Democrat or a Republican; you're any one of different, yet similar yet different, religious beliefs; even with Santa, you're either good or bad. The world seems to have a problem dealing with shades of gray, so they don't: you either conform and you're a good little boy or you don't and you're going to hell.
Again, follow your instincts. I was raised Catholic but I don't believe in all of their teachings any more. There's too much contradiction in their teachings, but this applies to ALL religions and political parties and everything, really. Just because you don't agree doesn't make you wrong; just because you don't fit the mold doesn't make you evil.
Follow your instincts. I'm not going to spout off my beliefs here because, really, it's not my place. But I will say that I believe in a mixture of a lot of different religions and don't conform to any. If people ask me what I am, I tell them I'm my own religion because that's the only thing that makes sense to me.
Remember, Not Unlike... just because you don't fit into a prepackaged group, doesn't mean you're wrong in any way. Religion was created as a guideline and has been taken advantage of by men who have wanted power over the centuries, so who really knows who's to say what's right and wrong, definitively? (Don't believe anyone who says they do.)
Follow your instincts. If it feels wrong, it probably is. If it feels right, it probably is. In the end, only you can decide that for yourself.
edit: changed the sentence "don't believe in their teachings" to "don't believe in ALL of their teachings". It's more accurate that way.
Originally posted by Gambit
The world seems to have a problem dealing with shades of gray, so they don't
This seems quite true.
To be fair...thinking/listening "gray" is hard work...it takes practice and discipline. Most people don't seem to want to put in the work.
I know I am trying this more and more. Somedays I am just lazy and want to think in black/white.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
First beef. God creates angels.....
Ultimately, if man has free will, God would have to exist in relation to time, or be subject to it in some way. This would also mean that He would have no true idea what the end game on Earth would be. Your statement is odd, because you want a God who is not, by definition, the ultimate authority in the Universe, "being", cosmos, etc. If He is not ultimate, then we must look to the force that is, and ultimatly that would be 'chance' -- who you logically would have to blame, at least for some of what you see. Then there is the question of 'bad' things, is God bound by our sensibilities in any way? Also, If God did allow all these 'bad' things to happen with foreknowledge, there really is no answer except to ask "are you privy to the purposes of God?"
Second beef. Terrible people do terrible things in the name of religions and faiths.....
People do terrible things for all sorts of reasons, sometimes they don't even need a reason.
Third beef. Basically, anytime you have a valid point about why God doesn?t fit a special little Baptist mold, or Catholic mold, you get hit by ?God works in mysterious ways?. A compassionate all powerful God need not toy with us and diddle himself
This goes back to the first beef -- I think you want things both ways here. On the one hand you want to believe in God, as such, but at the same time want to cut and paste your motivations and life experiences on, presumably, a much more cogent being. I don't think that makes any sense. Do you really think that you would understand the solution if He came down and "explained" it to you?
Fourth beef. You think that if God wanted his faith taken seriously, he?d have left hard irrefutable evidence
This is misguided, since if you start from yourself as sufficient and not with revelation, you will toss any "evidences" over your shoulder.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
I guess if I wanted to sound truely ironic, God found my post, and answered.....
Well, Not Unlike, sometimes all you have to do is ask.
Good luck to you.
Humans created god in their own image.
Does that answer some of our questions?