What I keep reading here is another case of "spec whorism"
If you want the bigger "virtual penis" then hopped up Alienware systems are your ticket.
My thoughts:
10k SATA drives - I haven't seen one that performs so great that it's worth looking beyond the noise. I personally think that people may want to look at the newer SATA II drives with 16MB caches and NCQ. SCSI has almost been preferred because of it's efficient methods for ordering data writes(Tag Command Queing. SATA II is catching up with this. From some Anandtech reports it seems a natural for multitasking systems. OSX should benefit greatly.
SLI - Having two 256MB SLI cards sound sexy until you realize that the data in the frame buffers is duplicted. So instead of having a monster SLI 512MB system you have a wasted 256MB of expensive GDDR3 memory. You also have twice the powerload on your Power Supply. I'm wondering if ATI is going to hit the gates with a SLI competitor that works on one card. I think they could leap past Nvidia with such a solution. A 16x PCIe slot should be able to handle the full bandwidth of two GPUs. ATI has already outdone Nvidia with the XT800 card taking up only one slot. This battle is far from over.
Hard Drive Bays- Apple give us at least 3 bays. I'm not the biggest fan of a bunch of hard drive bays. But 3 bays allows me to AID 0 a couple of drives and keep my system stuff on a dedicated drive. I'd then add external SATA drives in an enclose like this
Attached to a Sonnet Tech Tempo-X card. Nice.
I'd like to see Apple move to Airport Extremer. 802.11n cards with some external antenna options.
Quote:
Sound I/O-
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With a rapid converging industry, Apple would do well to move to HDMI 1.2 connections on the back of Powermacs. This would allow them to pump not only HD video but DVD-Audio and if rumors are true, SACD as well. Add Toslink digital I/O for backwards compatibility and you have everything taken care of with two ports(Note HDMI-DVI cable are readily available)
PCI Express - This is a given. I won't even waste my breath discussing it. Apple should move to a PCIe/PCI-X but I have no doubts that PCIe is on the next Powermacs. Despite the yammering from some PCIe hasn't been shipping all that long even on the PCI side what some 5 months or so in quantity? Apple's releases don't correspond to Intel chipset deliveries because they don't use Intel or Sis or any other chipset manf.
Shouldn't be more than a couple of months here and we'll know.
I posted the link to the Alienware ALX to show the available options
that a company like Apple SHOULD be able to offer
in a professional class desktop workstation.
You may also note that availablility of this expansion seems to be more important than price.
All a matter of just making it possible.
PCI-Express is not some futuristic dream
and apparently dual 256MB nforce SLI cards are available.
Pro sound cards and plug in interface capabilities are simply a matter of budget.
Enterprise quality 10,000 RPM Hard Drives plug right in.
Beyond that you're getting into external storage, Xserve, XsAN and RAID.
The point is ...
none of these expandability options would require any major re-tooling
of the current G5 chassis.
It's more a matter of freeing the chains that bind us.
Even without dual core, the G5 PowerMac should be on even ground
with the competition in connectivity.
That's all I'm asking
Although, that is not the alienware workstation chassis. The workstation chassis looks nothing like that, but it (wsChassis) is the ultimate IMO. You can actually get dual 512mb cards for that. Once the Opteron nForce4 pro version is shipping we will be seeing some extremely impressive benchmarks out of the nForce4 Pro systems.
Hopefully by then Apple will have a new PowerMac, or ProMac out that is capable of the same.
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
If you want the bigger "virtual penis" then hopped up Alienware systems are your ticket.
If the PowerMac was capable of what the Alienware Pro-Workstations are I don't think you would be complaining,. or making those snide remarks.
f the PowerMac was capable of what the Alienware Pro-Workstations are I don't think you would be complaining,. or making those snide remarks.
My intentions are not to be snide but rather efficient. I've noticed a trend in X86 based computers. No one really differentiates themselves other than external casings or going with the "Bigger Better Deal"
Computers should be getting smaller, lighter and more efficient and they are. The fastest growing segment in computing is likely laptop computers.
SLI is a geeks wet dream but the masses don't need two power hungry nvidia cards in their computer. It's doubtful whether they need 4+ bays with the availability of half terabyte drives.
I continually see people trying to hold Apple's feet to the fire and I'm not seeing much justification other than "PCs have this". That's great and all but Macs, IMO, tend to be marketed towards people and their uses rather than tossing in a bunch of "stuff" and trying to wow someone with marketing. Sounds distinctly "PC" to me.
Of course the whining pissin' and moaning always intensifies before a refresh of the next model in question as if the person hadn't learned from the previous nth amount of refereshes.
The level of "Apple firsts" should speak for itself. We get new tech as fast if not faster than PCs.
The level of "Apple firsts" should speak for itself. We get new tech as fast if not faster than PCs.
Perfectly stated. A lot of people don't realize that apple has started trends in computing: Obsolete floppy drives, USB ports (apple was first to move to 100% usb), Firewire ports (need I say more?), 1-1.25ghz bus, Dvd Burners (RAM and -RW), 128bit graphics cards, standard liquid cooling, PCI-X... these are the things off of the top of my head from the last 5 years. Who knows what else has been done since the dawn of the macintosh.. besides GUI OS and Mouse.
Point is, apple comes up with plenty of inovations. Just because they didn't drop everything when SLI came out and incorporated it doesn't mean they are any less of a company. They just released the powermac +- 3 months before SLI had been released. Why do we need 4 hard drive bays? You will soon be able to purchase 500gb SATA drives. If storage is that important then get an XServe Raid. Its going to keep the heat down in the computer anyways. Do you realize how much heat 4 harddrives put off in current PC cases??? It is not good for the internal components to have all this heat blown on them. It just stresses them out harder when it comes to cooling. Why do we need 10k rpm drives? There isn't a HUGE difference between 7200 and 10k.
Point is this stuff can be considered important, but not so important that apple needs to be the first ones to incorporate this stuff. Sit back and relax the new g5's will be here soon. Then you'll get your PCI-Express (OH BY THE WAY!!! Not 1 PC application / Game takes advantage of the bi-directional bus on PCI-E yet).
I find it funny that you use the high-frequency FSB as an example of innovation when it is inferior to the memory bus interface of the Opteron processor released approximately the same time as the G5.
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
standard liquid cooling
Do you really think Apple would've moved to liquid cooling if it wasn't strictly necessary? They have proved that they wouldn't by not using it in any other models than the dual 2.5 GHz.
on one hand we have folk who believe there will be a minor update soon, and on the other a bigger update with the release of tiger before June sometime.
yikes.
the idea of not being able to wait any longer and buy a current (old and outdated) powermac really sucks - tho its all that apple offer at the moment for what I need.
there has to be someone in the apple offices slaming their fists on desks keeping the pm developers (& IBM) on their toes.
With statements like that you must think that going another full year with AGP would be the best approach. Have it your way.
My point was they didn't need to jump on the bandwagon as soon as it came out since they released the powermacs 2-3 months before it was even available on x86 side.
Yes PCI-Express should be supported ASAP... the P on the end stands for Possible. There isn't any since of upgrading Powermacs just for graphics and that is it. It isn't a smart move.
PCI-Express is definitely much more welcome than AGP .... 16x vs. 8x for 1. You just missed my point is all. Definitely PCI-E is a must... but to jump on it immediately and put all this time and money into R&D for a simple bump in speed wouldn't prove worthwhile if everything else were to be the same.
I find it funny that you use the high-frequency FSB as an example of innovation when it is inferior to the memory bus interface of the Opteron processor released approximately the same time as the G5.
Do you really think Apple would've moved to liquid cooling if it wasn't strictly necessary? They have proved that they wouldn't by not using it in any other models than the dual 2.5 GHz.
Really?
Yes the interfaces are different, but apple was the first to release a bus that fast... BTW Opterons that used the on chip mem interfaces didn't start shipping until AFTER the g5s. The fact that the interface is beat by something else doesn't mean that apple didn't beat everyone to a faster bus speed.
The reason apple didn't stick liquid cooling into all of the machines is because they didn't have enough coolers. It was a brand new piece of hardware, guarantee its in all machines next rev.
Yes really... ATI 128 bit cards were first released on Apples. No other 128 bit card existed then. This was a HUGE deal... Remember when apple and ATI's relationship went down the drain? It was from ati pre-announcing the g3s that would come with 128bit ATI cards.
Interesting thoughts quamb. It brings me to ask myself what does Steve Jobs think the role of the PowerMac is, and what does he, and Apple see as it's role in computing in the future? ( for home, business, professional, industrial, scientific)
Is it gong to regain the mantle it once held that made many become Mac users? Will it subdivide into two versions (PowerMac, ProMac), or will it teeter at levels comparatively performance wise where it has settled to now that the G4 fiasco is in our pasts, and is back to a level of mediocrity among PC's?
Time will tell, but these are questions that weigh heavily on my mind.
Are all the Mac's going to wind up being cute, and fluffy little objects soon? I really hope not, but who really knows. Some people in here seem to think it's all about "being in with the cube, or mini life". Either "your in", or "your out". If it came to that I'd rather be out. But, I hope Apple is not as blinded as some of the users in here by trendy little packaging for users who do not require more than the basics in their computing life. I personally think the PowerMac should remain, (actually grow) bigger - because there are still those who use their computers for much more than the "cute, and fluffy" computer user, and there are still many who the PowerMac has not grown to accommodate yet. And right when it was just starting to look like it had a lot more potential than it ever had before too.
Currently the PowerMac G5 is in a state of stagnancy. Will the next PowerMac revision deal an innovative ferocious performance blow to the watchful eyes of the computing world, and start a frenzy, or will it deal another blow to the neglected performance hungry PowerMac user? Either way - someone is going to get hurt. Someone always does.
tho I guess alot this thread is just us apple nerds freaking out a little. in reality, we'll eventually get the new powermac, that'll be great (for 90% of us) and we'll shutup until that line becomes 7+ months old.
it seemed apple was becoming a very pro-company (with Final Cut becoming moreso an industry standard & the release of Logic) - and all the prod companies i've worked/been at predominately use mac hardware.
But right now, in the last 4 months or so, Apple has been VERY focused on it's 'fluffy' consumer, ipod-centric products. Guessing us pro-users are going to be back in the game just around the corner.. with all the r&d that Apple must spend, you'd hope that Apple is far ahead of our wishlists.
Some people in here seem to think it's all about "being in with the cube, or mini life".
Well, that speaks to some people.
What Apple does with the eMac and iMac and Mac mini doesn't really touch on what they do with the PowerMac. They've got the engineers to focus on multiple hardware projects. I do think it's good that they feel fiscally healthy enough to start taking bold steps into new territory, but none of that means that the PowerMac is being neglected or forgotten.
Don't forget, it just got the 6800U and the 30" Cinema Display, and Apple's working hard to get into markets that absolutely require that kind of power.
I don't doubt that they've stumbled. It's obvious now that the 970 didn't quite do what either IBM or Apple hoped it would do. So they continue to work on the problem—in secret of course, because this is Apple—and they'll release something when they have it.
We have hints that a glimpse into the possible near future will be unveiled at the ISSCC this coming week. Then we'll have a better idea of what IBM's been up to, and then we can maybe get a better sense of where Apple's going.
Remember, the Power5 rolled out last summer, and one of its explicit design goals was to be available in PowerPC form shortly afterward...
I'm all for the highly innovative, ferocious performance blow with a merciless assult on technology causing utter chaos and complete computer world frenzy!
Remember, the Power5 rolled out last summer, and one of its explicit design goals was to be available in PowerPC form shortly afterward...
Just one of the reasons why many expect to see a dual core G5 in the next revision. I'd rather they improved the existing tower, and/or processors before they do. If they did both it would be another story entirely.
Yesterdays cell processor was just a prototype though. Sony will have them in abundance, and in PS3's way before Apple starts using them, and that should still take quite a while. Plus - Chances are Apple wouldn't use the same one anyway.
In the nearest possible future the closest thing even resembling cell technology is most likely to be dual processing cored PowerPC CPU's.
Questions regarding the differences in Multi cored CPU's, and Cell. In the Cell processors there is a dual threaded PowerPC core that controls the other eight single threaded cell cores. The P5(Power5) is a two-core/four-thread design which to me seems the more aggressive approach, and is already available. Of the two in the near future The Dual core PowerPC everyone is hoping to see soon should still be better suited for use in Macs than the prototype cell processor seen yesterday. Especially if the PowerPC version of the dual core P5 sticks with the two-core/four-thread design.
Interesting thoughts quamb. It brings me to ask myself what does Steve Jobs think the role of the PowerMac is, and what does he, and Apple see as it's role in computing in the future? .... "where it has settled to now that the G4 fiasco is in our pasts, and is back to a level of mediocrity among PC's?" Currently the PowerMac G5 is in a state of stagnancy.
Hmmm. harsh words, onlooker. Harsh words indeed.
I agree that the state of the PowerMac is very much up to Steve Jobs and how he wants to define it. But again, what is a POWERUSER ?
What kind of applications does a POWERUSER use ?
Except fueling Quartz Express, how would a POWERUSER spend the power of the latest and greatest videocards ? ( except the media business [obviously ])
Now, 18 months since the 64bit G5 were introduced at wwdc, where are the 64bits applications ? Where are the applications that shows the obvious difference between 32bit and 64bit ? (if there is any for mid-pro users)
I want more power ! I have a G4 Cube with a 450 MHz cpu. Making an iDVD takes 10-14 hours in mp4-to-mp2 decoding. (10 to 14 hours !!!!).
But I also use Mathematica and the difference in speed between ver4 and ver5 was not due to hardware. But to coding. In the 1970´s , american car-manufactors where caught with their pants down. Building expensive cars that had an gas-consumation straight out of hell lost to cheaper and more ecconomic cars developed and produced in asia.
End of my rambling, it seems like the hardware is ahead of the software. Let it catch up first, then we can discuss the PowerMacs,
I thought someone might get the wrong idea of my use of the word mediocrity. I only meant to say it equaled most PC speeds on average. For the most part the state of computing across platforms is stagnant. It could use another "old school Apple" shot in the arm to regenerate it.
From the looks of things with IBM, if Apple were to get ahead of the PC world in the design game now, the processors from IBM shouldn't cripple their future, as it did in the past with Motorola.
Quote:
Originally posted by zenarcade
I agree that the state of the PowerMac is very much up to Steve Jobs and how he wants to define it. But again, what is a POWERUSER ?
A Power-User by my definition is those who buy the Power-line of Apple products. The PowerBook, and PowerMac.
I still think being on par, or equal to the PC on average should be the new role of the iMac for the most part now that there is a Mac-Mini for entry level computer users that are not ready, or are undecided as to what their personal computers are going to be used as, and/or for.
But, the iMac is still slightly less than what some musicians, gamers, video, and even some 2D professionals may need, or would choose it for being that there are limited expandability options fort the iMac. Which leaves us the place where the PowerMac has settled upon. Which is where the majority of Mac using professionals lie.
There is still the un-addressed above average PC which Apple has not countered, or offered a Macintosh for. This is where I think Apple should venture in the very near future. I like the name ProMac. The PowerMac could accommodate the features needed for my idea of a ProMac, but that would burden the existing Mac professional with added expense of features that would be seemingly useless to them.
Quote:
Originally posted by zenarcade
Now, 18 months since the 64bit G5 were introduced at wwdc, where are the 64bits applications ? Where are the applications that shows the obvious difference between 32bit and 64bit ? (if there is any for mid-pro users)
Intel is still the dominant processor sold in computers, and including legacy computers intel is in great abundance across the computing world.
Intel is working on a 64-bit processor so that should stir more 64-bit development because Microsoft will be pushing 64-bit computing as the greatest thing since pussy once they do.
64-bit applications are slowly turning themselves out, but developers are not the easiest people to convince to change their programming habits for a few computers for, and some applications are easier to compile as 64-bit ready than others. Newtek has had a beta version 64-bit LightWave 3D running under AMD Opterons for a few months now, and being that Lightwave is a cross-platform application I believe they probably are working on, or have something similar for Mac's. It will probably be shown at a expo, or something.
Adobe probably already has beta 64-bit ready applications, and chances are we'll see them within a year, or so pending intel of course.
Maya just got a full OSX native re-write which is helping their OSX development greatly, and Alias is fully aware of AMD, Intel, and IBM's push on 64-bit. I think it's mostly a matter of all developers waiting on intel, and Microsoft before they decide it's a truely needed push.
Once all three are shipping 64-bit processors, and MS brings that 64-bit OS out of beta you can believe that you'll be seeing so many 64-bit apps your head will spin.
Comments
If you want the bigger "virtual penis" then hopped up Alienware systems are your ticket.
My thoughts:
10k SATA drives - I haven't seen one that performs so great that it's worth looking beyond the noise. I personally think that people may want to look at the newer SATA II drives with 16MB caches and NCQ. SCSI has almost been preferred because of it's efficient methods for ordering data writes(Tag Command Queing. SATA II is catching up with this. From some Anandtech reports it seems a natural for multitasking systems. OSX should benefit greatly.
SLI - Having two 256MB SLI cards sound sexy until you realize that the data in the frame buffers is duplicted. So instead of having a monster SLI 512MB system you have a wasted 256MB of expensive GDDR3 memory. You also have twice the powerload on your Power Supply. I'm wondering if ATI is going to hit the gates with a SLI competitor that works on one card. I think they could leap past Nvidia with such a solution. A 16x PCIe slot should be able to handle the full bandwidth of two GPUs. ATI has already outdone Nvidia with the XT800 card taking up only one slot. This battle is far from over.
Hard Drive Bays- Apple give us at least 3 bays. I'm not the biggest fan of a bunch of hard drive bays. But 3 bays allows me to AID 0 a couple of drives and keep my system stuff on a dedicated drive. I'd then add external SATA drives in an enclose like this
Attached to a Sonnet Tech Tempo-X card. Nice.
I'd like to see Apple move to Airport Extremer. 802.11n cards with some external antenna options.
Sound I/O-
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With a rapid converging industry, Apple would do well to move to HDMI 1.2 connections on the back of Powermacs. This would allow them to pump not only HD video but DVD-Audio and if rumors are true, SACD as well. Add Toslink digital I/O for backwards compatibility and you have everything taken care of with two ports(Note HDMI-DVI cable are readily available)
PCI Express - This is a given. I won't even waste my breath discussing it. Apple should move to a PCIe/PCI-X but I have no doubts that PCIe is on the next Powermacs. Despite the yammering from some PCIe hasn't been shipping all that long even on the PCI side what some 5 months or so in quantity? Apple's releases don't correspond to Intel chipset deliveries because they don't use Intel or Sis or any other chipset manf.
Shouldn't be more than a couple of months here and we'll know.
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
I posted the link to the Alienware ALX to show the available options
that a company like Apple SHOULD be able to offer
in a professional class desktop workstation.
You may also note that availablility of this expansion seems to be more important than price.
All a matter of just making it possible.
PCI-Express is not some futuristic dream
and apparently dual 256MB nforce SLI cards are available.
Pro sound cards and plug in interface capabilities are simply a matter of budget.
Enterprise quality 10,000 RPM Hard Drives plug right in.
Beyond that you're getting into external storage, Xserve, XsAN and RAID.
The point is ...
none of these expandability options would require any major re-tooling
of the current G5 chassis.
It's more a matter of freeing the chains that bind us.
Even without dual core, the G5 PowerMac should be on even ground
with the competition in connectivity.
That's all I'm asking
Although, that is not the alienware workstation chassis. The workstation chassis looks nothing like that, but it (wsChassis) is the ultimate IMO. You can actually get dual 512mb cards for that. Once the Opteron nForce4 pro version is shipping we will be seeing some extremely impressive benchmarks out of the nForce4 Pro systems.
Hopefully by then Apple will have a new PowerMac, or ProMac out that is capable of the same.
Originally posted by hmurchison
If you want the bigger "virtual penis" then hopped up Alienware systems are your ticket.
If the PowerMac was capable of what the Alienware Pro-Workstations are I don't think you would be complaining,. or making those snide remarks.
f the PowerMac was capable of what the Alienware Pro-Workstations are I don't think you would be complaining,. or making those snide remarks.
My intentions are not to be snide but rather efficient. I've noticed a trend in X86 based computers. No one really differentiates themselves other than external casings or going with the "Bigger Better Deal"
Computers should be getting smaller, lighter and more efficient and they are. The fastest growing segment in computing is likely laptop computers.
SLI is a geeks wet dream but the masses don't need two power hungry nvidia cards in their computer. It's doubtful whether they need 4+ bays with the availability of half terabyte drives.
I continually see people trying to hold Apple's feet to the fire and I'm not seeing much justification other than "PCs have this". That's great and all but Macs, IMO, tend to be marketed towards people and their uses rather than tossing in a bunch of "stuff" and trying to wow someone with marketing. Sounds distinctly "PC" to me.
Of course the whining pissin' and moaning always intensifies before a refresh of the next model in question as if the person hadn't learned from the previous nth amount of refereshes.
The level of "Apple firsts" should speak for itself. We get new tech as fast if not faster than PCs.
Originally posted by hmurchison
The level of "Apple firsts" should speak for itself. We get new tech as fast if not faster than PCs.
Perfectly stated. A lot of people don't realize that apple has started trends in computing: Obsolete floppy drives, USB ports (apple was first to move to 100% usb), Firewire ports (need I say more?), 1-1.25ghz bus, Dvd Burners (RAM and -RW), 128bit graphics cards, standard liquid cooling, PCI-X... these are the things off of the top of my head from the last 5 years. Who knows what else has been done since the dawn of the macintosh.. besides GUI OS and Mouse.
Point is, apple comes up with plenty of inovations. Just because they didn't drop everything when SLI came out and incorporated it doesn't mean they are any less of a company. They just released the powermac +- 3 months before SLI had been released. Why do we need 4 hard drive bays? You will soon be able to purchase 500gb SATA drives. If storage is that important then get an XServe Raid. Its going to keep the heat down in the computer anyways. Do you realize how much heat 4 harddrives put off in current PC cases??? It is not good for the internal components to have all this heat blown on them. It just stresses them out harder when it comes to cooling. Why do we need 10k rpm drives? There isn't a HUGE difference between 7200 and 10k.
Point is this stuff can be considered important, but not so important that apple needs to be the first ones to incorporate this stuff. Sit back and relax the new g5's will be here soon. Then you'll get your PCI-Express (OH BY THE WAY!!! Not 1 PC application / Game takes advantage of the bi-directional bus on PCI-E yet).
So chill out.
Originally posted by emig647
(OH BY THE WAY!!! Not 1 PC application / Game takes advantage of the bi-directional bus on PCI-E yet).
So chill out.
With statements like that you must think that going another full year with AGP would be the best approach. Have it your way.
Originally posted by emig647
1-1.25ghz bus
I find it funny that you use the high-frequency FSB as an example of innovation when it is inferior to the memory bus interface of the Opteron processor released approximately the same time as the G5.
Originally posted by emig647
standard liquid cooling
Do you really think Apple would've moved to liquid cooling if it wasn't strictly necessary? They have proved that they wouldn't by not using it in any other models than the dual 2.5 GHz.
Originally posted by emig647
128bit graphics cards
Really?
Some people just want the tools of their trade to be the finest available.
I'm not asking so much for a few reasonable improvements before
I surrender to temptation.
More than likely, we're going to see a minor PB style revision
that improves the existing chassis configuration enough to move them
while Apple gears up for any major re-tooling.
I would like to see a completely new PowerMac that allows me to
expand freely on an industry specific basis.
I would be content with a new motherboard that was at least
capable of expanding to anyone's needs.
PCI-Express, SLI or CELL GPU capable.
Dual optical drive capable.
64 bit sound card capable <">
Dual Core and QuadraMac capable.
These things are all within reach, it's just a matter of how long we can stand to wait.
At least we have these forums to help us make a more informed decision.
on one hand we have folk who believe there will be a minor update soon, and on the other a bigger update with the release of tiger before June sometime.
yikes.
the idea of not being able to wait any longer and buy a current (old and outdated) powermac really sucks - tho its all that apple offer at the moment for what I need.
there has to be someone in the apple offices slaming their fists on desks keeping the pm developers (& IBM) on their toes.
Originally posted by onlooker
With statements like that you must think that going another full year with AGP would be the best approach. Have it your way.
My point was they didn't need to jump on the bandwagon as soon as it came out since they released the powermacs 2-3 months before it was even available on x86 side.
Yes PCI-Express should be supported ASAP... the P on the end stands for Possible. There isn't any since of upgrading Powermacs just for graphics and that is it. It isn't a smart move.
PCI-Express is definitely much more welcome than AGP .... 16x vs. 8x for 1. You just missed my point is all. Definitely PCI-E is a must... but to jump on it immediately and put all this time and money into R&D for a simple bump in speed wouldn't prove worthwhile if everything else were to be the same.
Originally posted by Zapchud
I find it funny that you use the high-frequency FSB as an example of innovation when it is inferior to the memory bus interface of the Opteron processor released approximately the same time as the G5.
Do you really think Apple would've moved to liquid cooling if it wasn't strictly necessary? They have proved that they wouldn't by not using it in any other models than the dual 2.5 GHz.
Really?
Yes the interfaces are different, but apple was the first to release a bus that fast... BTW Opterons that used the on chip mem interfaces didn't start shipping until AFTER the g5s. The fact that the interface is beat by something else doesn't mean that apple didn't beat everyone to a faster bus speed.
The reason apple didn't stick liquid cooling into all of the machines is because they didn't have enough coolers. It was a brand new piece of hardware, guarantee its in all machines next rev.
Yes really... ATI 128 bit cards were first released on Apples. No other 128 bit card existed then. This was a HUGE deal... Remember when apple and ATI's relationship went down the drain? It was from ati pre-announcing the g3s that would come with 128bit ATI cards.
Pins, connectors, bus, etc?
Would this be something major or minor to accomplish?
Just curious
Is it gong to regain the mantle it once held that made many become Mac users? Will it subdivide into two versions (PowerMac, ProMac), or will it teeter at levels comparatively performance wise where it has settled to now that the G4 fiasco is in our pasts, and is back to a level of mediocrity among PC's?
Time will tell, but these are questions that weigh heavily on my mind.
Are all the Mac's going to wind up being cute, and fluffy little objects soon? I really hope not, but who really knows. Some people in here seem to think it's all about "being in with the cube, or mini life". Either "your in", or "your out". If it came to that I'd rather be out. But, I hope Apple is not as blinded as some of the users in here by trendy little packaging for users who do not require more than the basics in their computing life. I personally think the PowerMac should remain, (actually grow) bigger - because there are still those who use their computers for much more than the "cute, and fluffy" computer user, and there are still many who the PowerMac has not grown to accommodate yet. And right when it was just starting to look like it had a lot more potential than it ever had before too.
Currently the PowerMac G5 is in a state of stagnancy. Will the next PowerMac revision deal an innovative ferocious performance blow to the watchful eyes of the computing world, and start a frenzy, or will it deal another blow to the neglected performance hungry PowerMac user? Either way - someone is going to get hurt. Someone always does.
tho I guess alot this thread is just us apple nerds freaking out a little. in reality, we'll eventually get the new powermac, that'll be great (for 90% of us) and we'll shutup until that line becomes 7+ months old.
it seemed apple was becoming a very pro-company (with Final Cut becoming moreso an industry standard & the release of Logic) - and all the prod companies i've worked/been at predominately use mac hardware.
But right now, in the last 4 months or so, Apple has been VERY focused on it's 'fluffy' consumer, ipod-centric products. Guessing us pro-users are going to be back in the game just around the corner.. with all the r&d that Apple must spend, you'd hope that Apple is far ahead of our wishlists.
Originally posted by onlooker
Some people in here seem to think it's all about "being in with the cube, or mini life".
Well, that speaks to some people.
What Apple does with the eMac and iMac and Mac mini doesn't really touch on what they do with the PowerMac. They've got the engineers to focus on multiple hardware projects. I do think it's good that they feel fiscally healthy enough to start taking bold steps into new territory, but none of that means that the PowerMac is being neglected or forgotten.
Don't forget, it just got the 6800U and the 30" Cinema Display, and Apple's working hard to get into markets that absolutely require that kind of power.
I don't doubt that they've stumbled. It's obvious now that the 970 didn't quite do what either IBM or Apple hoped it would do. So they continue to work on the problem—in secret of course, because this is Apple—and they'll release something when they have it.
We have hints that a glimpse into the possible near future will be unveiled at the ISSCC this coming week. Then we'll have a better idea of what IBM's been up to, and then we can maybe get a better sense of where Apple's going.
Remember, the Power5 rolled out last summer, and one of its explicit design goals was to be available in PowerPC form shortly afterward...
Originally posted by Amorph
Remember, the Power5 rolled out last summer, and one of its explicit design goals was to be available in PowerPC form shortly afterward...
Just one of the reasons why many expect to see a dual core G5 in the next revision. I'd rather they improved the existing tower, and/or processors before they do. If they did both it would be another story entirely.
the G5 processor would still be used as the primary controller CPU.
So it appears that Apple might use CELL as a secondary GPU in some
configuration.
This idea then made me wonder if a dual processor G5 would then
have 2 primary CPU's controlling each of two 8 core GPU CELLS???
In effect giving us a G18
I clearly need more coffee before I contemplate this any further.
Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
In effect giving us a G18
You really did fall out of that tree didn'tch'a.
Yesterdays cell processor was just a prototype though. Sony will have them in abundance, and in PS3's way before Apple starts using them, and that should still take quite a while. Plus - Chances are Apple wouldn't use the same one anyway.
In the nearest possible future the closest thing even resembling cell technology is most likely to be dual processing cored PowerPC CPU's.
Questions regarding the differences in Multi cored CPU's, and Cell. In the Cell processors there is a dual threaded PowerPC core that controls the other eight single threaded cell cores. The P5(Power5) is a two-core/four-thread design which to me seems the more aggressive approach, and is already available. Of the two in the near future The Dual core PowerPC everyone is hoping to see soon should still be better suited for use in Macs than the prototype cell processor seen yesterday. Especially if the PowerPC version of the dual core P5 sticks with the two-core/four-thread design.
Originally posted by onlooker
Interesting thoughts quamb. It brings me to ask myself what does Steve Jobs think the role of the PowerMac is, and what does he, and Apple see as it's role in computing in the future? .... "where it has settled to now that the G4 fiasco is in our pasts, and is back to a level of mediocrity among PC's?" Currently the PowerMac G5 is in a state of stagnancy.
Hmmm. harsh words, onlooker. Harsh words indeed.
I agree that the state of the PowerMac is very much up to Steve Jobs and how he wants to define it. But again, what is a POWERUSER ?
What kind of applications does a POWERUSER use ?
Except fueling Quartz Express, how would a POWERUSER spend the power of the latest and greatest videocards ? ( except the media business [obviously
Now, 18 months since the 64bit G5 were introduced at wwdc, where are the 64bits applications ? Where are the applications that shows the obvious difference between 32bit and 64bit ? (if there is any for mid-pro users)
I want more power ! I have a G4 Cube with a 450 MHz cpu. Making an iDVD takes 10-14 hours in mp4-to-mp2 decoding. (10 to 14 hours !!!!).
But I also use Mathematica and the difference in speed between ver4 and ver5 was not due to hardware. But to coding. In the 1970´s , american car-manufactors where caught with their pants down. Building expensive cars that had an gas-consumation straight out of hell lost to cheaper and more ecconomic cars developed and produced in asia.
End of my rambling, it seems like the hardware is ahead of the software. Let it catch up first, then we can discuss the PowerMacs,
Zon
From the looks of things with IBM, if Apple were to get ahead of the PC world in the design game now, the processors from IBM shouldn't cripple their future, as it did in the past with Motorola.
Originally posted by zenarcade
I agree that the state of the PowerMac is very much up to Steve Jobs and how he wants to define it. But again, what is a POWERUSER ?
A Power-User by my definition is those who buy the Power-line of Apple products. The PowerBook, and PowerMac.
I still think being on par, or equal to the PC on average should be the new role of the iMac for the most part now that there is a Mac-Mini for entry level computer users that are not ready, or are undecided as to what their personal computers are going to be used as, and/or for.
But, the iMac is still slightly less than what some musicians, gamers, video, and even some 2D professionals may need, or would choose it for being that there are limited expandability options fort the iMac. Which leaves us the place where the PowerMac has settled upon. Which is where the majority of Mac using professionals lie.
There is still the un-addressed above average PC which Apple has not countered, or offered a Macintosh for. This is where I think Apple should venture in the very near future. I like the name ProMac. The PowerMac could accommodate the features needed for my idea of a ProMac, but that would burden the existing Mac professional with added expense of features that would be seemingly useless to them.
Originally posted by zenarcade
Now, 18 months since the 64bit G5 were introduced at wwdc, where are the 64bits applications ? Where are the applications that shows the obvious difference between 32bit and 64bit ? (if there is any for mid-pro users)
Intel is still the dominant processor sold in computers, and including legacy computers intel is in great abundance across the computing world.
Intel is working on a 64-bit processor so that should stir more 64-bit development because Microsoft will be pushing 64-bit computing as the greatest thing since pussy once they do.
64-bit applications are slowly turning themselves out, but developers are not the easiest people to convince to change their programming habits for a few computers for, and some applications are easier to compile as 64-bit ready than others. Newtek has had a beta version 64-bit LightWave 3D running under AMD Opterons for a few months now, and being that Lightwave is a cross-platform application I believe they probably are working on, or have something similar for Mac's. It will probably be shown at a expo, or something.
Adobe probably already has beta 64-bit ready applications, and chances are we'll see them within a year, or so pending intel of course.
Maya just got a full OSX native re-write which is helping their OSX development greatly, and Alias is fully aware of AMD, Intel, and IBM's push on 64-bit. I think it's mostly a matter of all developers waiting on intel, and Microsoft before they decide it's a truely needed push.
Once all three are shipping 64-bit processors, and MS brings that 64-bit OS out of beta you can believe that you'll be seeing so many 64-bit apps your head will spin.