Agpx8 has a max of 2.1gig per sec.But it can only send data 1 way at a time.PCIEx8 has 4 gigs of ban and it send data both ways at once.(2gigs in/2 gig out)
onlooker Only on the opteron is that chipset on and yes it has 2 PCiEx16 slot's. THe Nforce 4 chipset THat The A64/FX socket 939 they are 2 full size x16 slot's but there connection inside of the slots when in sLI is x8.Intel 1 iwill xeon board has 2 PCIE slots for hacked sli but one slot has a x16 connection and the other is X4 connection in a x16 slot.
This is a link about what and how the NVIDIA nForce Professional works and its scalabity.IT will help u understand alittle about that tech.On there there a cell overview too if u want to check out.
The opterton has 3 hypertranport links Now with reversion E they are 1000MHz links.1 link for memory,1 for talking to the other cpu's and linking each cpu together and the 3rd is for linking it self with the southbridge.So giving that each chip can have its own dual channel ram.Like some boards u gotta have the second opteron to inable some of the mobo's onboardfeat's becuse it allows max troughtput when u have heavy demanding feats like scsi raid.
A lot of fuss is made about PCI-E's symmetry, but really that is a bit of a yawner. For something like CoreImage or those various projects doing computation on the GPU it is useful, but most of the time you use your GPU for graphics and 99.99% of data flow in graphics is from CPU & main memory to GPU. So while its nice that PCI-E can go both ways fast, it really isn't that big a deal.
Higher bandwidth isn't such a huge big deal at the moment either -- witness the lack of any real improvement from AGP 4x to 8x. Again, it helps a little and more is better... but its not a really big motivator to change.
A big thing that PCI-E supports that AGP doesn't is multiple slots. In this age of dual headed cards though, this is really only useful for those of us with more than two monitors (or more than one of those big 30"ers!). A very small number indeed.
PCI-E does replace PCI so everything currently on your PCI bus stands to benefit from big bandwidth increases. I think it is also a better standard from an electrical point of view, but that's not my field so I can't really comment on it. The single biggest factor in favor of PCI-E? That it is going to be the new standard. That is why Apple will switch to it, but that doesn't really become relevant until it is a well established standard... some time this year.
So don't get so worked up over it, it really isn't such an earth shaking feature. If Apple doesn't have it by 2006 then its probably time to complain, but at the moment I'd worry more about the lack of 3 GHz, dual core chips, or a higher bandwidth, lower latency memory subsystem.
I have a question does apple chipsets support fastwrite?I is a feature In agpx4/8 cards and in pc chipsets so when the video card asks for data from the cpu is don't go though the memory just the fsb and same when data from the cpu to the gpu.
PCiE is a major inprovment over PCi\\X becuase.With a system with say just pci slots the total ban over the reg PCi bus from every slot and onboard feats like PAta\\Sata\\ubs\\firewire have to share a total of 133mb.PciX slots has to have a chip to control each slot.Example u have a bunch of diffrent grade PCi X slots u have to have diffrent chips on the motherboard to control each slot speed spec and then there linked with the SB chip.
With PCiE there XX many Links in The SB and then there split off from there to X many PciE slot and onboard feats.So think of this what would you want if u have a raid setup?have your hardrives fighting for its place in the 133mb space with other devices or being on it own lane getting 500mb i/o.PciE x1 link.Thats a god send for highend scsi severs than don't have to buy a specail pciX card.When they can buy a card that could be supported pretty much any motherboard that has a pciEx1/4/8 slot.
Btw my raid example is about a onboard raid controller.
I have a question does apple chipsets support fastwrite?
I'm thinking that it does, at least the late generation G4 chipsets. Note sure about the G5 chipsets.
Quote:
PCiE is a major inprovment over PCi\\X becuase.With a system with say just pci slots the total ban over the reg PCi bus from every slot and onboard feats like PAta\\Sata\\ubs\\firewire have to share a total of 133mb.PciX slots has to have a chip to control each slot.
Yeah, except that Apple's systems aren't like this. For the G5 systems, core logic ASICs are bridged with Hypertransport links and PATA, SATA, 1394, and ethernet are integrated into the ASICs. The only things on the PCI bus are USB, Airport and the slots. For the G4 systems, all the major bandwidth features are integrated onto one system ASIC, and well, they don't have any PCI slots, or in the case of the 15+ inch Powerbooks, 1 Cardbus slot.
Apple needs to have PCIe for graphics compatibility eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later, with SLI or multi-rendering capability.
Sure the elder G4 PowerMacs had 1 AGP , and 3 PCI slots, but the much older yikes had 4(?) PCI slots. But I think he was referring to Apples current computers.
It's just not less power when u talk about ddr2.Its about reaching much higher speeds than possable with ddr1 with speeds over 800mhz+.But what hurting it is its high cas timing cas 4 and 5,price and Dram makers like samsung is making DDR1 ram that can go DDR600+ and still have lower timings than ddr2.
It's just not less power when u talk about ddr2.Its about reaching much higher speeds than possable with ddr1 with speeds over 800mhz+.But what hurting it is its high cas timing cas 4 and 5,price and Dram makers like samsung is making DDR1 ram that can go DDR600+ and still have lower timings than ddr2.
Some random notes:
RAM manufacturers are already phasing out DDR production. Just as with SDRAM, DDR is going to become an expensive old technology. DDR2 is ramping in fast ( and DDR4 is following soon ).
PCI-E is the same, it doesnt matter if the technology makes a difference to the end user, for the people building the boards it is worthwhile, and moving into the market fast. not supporting it in new products is going to be suicide.
AGP 8x does support two slots, but no one ever made a chipset or a board that used it - because there were very few users who needed high speed 3d on 4 displays, and no one making SLI cards. I think it is being used by ATI, their IGP built in video will continue to work if you plug in an ATI AGP card, giving you 3 video outs.
If you have a look at card manufacturers, there are already plenty of nvidia 6200s coming onto the market ( PCI-E ) with only 16mb of vram. They host all of the textures in main system RAM ( upto 256mb ). Im sure that they dont perform very well, but what do users know, its a cheap card that can do everything.
PCI-E, like hypertransport, provides a fast way to connect to devices that is standardised. However, it is also flexible. Only want to give a device a 1x connection ( because of board space, or availble channels, or pins on the chip etc etc ) and you can. You can take a 16x video card, and mask off all of the pins except the 1x, and it will still run. That is just great technology for board designers.
Ati igp turns into a pci card when a Agp card pluged in.AGp cannot support more than 1 agp slot and it can't support muilt gpu's.The rage fury maxx had 2 gpu's and the card ran on agp but the bus didn' run as a agp bus it ran as a 66mhz x 32 bit slot.Same as 3dfx's vodoo 5500 and 6000 too.
The next gen memory after ddr2 is ddr3 its goin to be based of Gddr3 thats on video cards.
Gf6200 has upto 64mb of memory on boards
GeForce 6200 w/ TurboCache supporting 128MB, including 16MB of local TurboCache: $79
GeForce 6200 w/ TurboCache supporting 128MB, including 32MB of local TurboCache: $99
GeForce 6200 w/ TurboCache supporting 256MB, including 64MB of local TurboCache: $129
Images of Apple motherboards can be found on Google. The Japanese site Kodawarisan has a lot of disassembly images. Some images can be found at xlr8yourmac.com/
Quote:
THT G4's didn't have pci slots?I alway thought they did other than the mac mini.
Of course Power Mac G4s have PCI slots, but they are also about a year out of production and the odds of a G4 w/slot expansion is pretty close to zero. Something pretty incredible has to happen for Apple to ship a G4 based system with slots in the future.
I think everyone is in agreement that Apple needs to adopt PCIe (for graphics as minimum and I/O expansion later on) and a higher performance memory subsystem eventually. Sooner is definitely better than later. They also need to ship a lower cost Power Mac G5 in the ~$1000 range, and even ship dual-core processors in them. Dual-core 1.6 and 1.8 GHz would be fine, but I doubt it.
They also need to ship a lower cost Power Mac G5 in the ~$1000 range, and even ship dual-core processors in them. Dual-core 1.6 and 1.8 GHz would be fine, but I doubt it.
But thats iMac territory. I really can't see them doing that. I'm highly doubting there will ever be a PowerMac lite, even if Apple decides to create an appropriate 3D workstation, and reduces the general PowerMac specs to what may be needed for 2D work I just can't see them doing that. I think they would alter the iMacs range first.
Thanx for the pic and the links THT.I well what i understand apple could benafit from PciE quite abit on there mobo design in area's.
1)There the pci bus link to the ubs controller,blue tooth,airport,rom if they went with PciE x1 link it would help in using alot less traces on the board,less complexty on design of trying to get all them traces to work right and well better overall speed on them port's.
2)They could make the audio a pciE chip to support more than max of 24bit/48khz output to 24bit/96 or 192khz for true dvd support audio.Core audio what i can understand from apple developer support is 32bit\\48khz output.Give it a dobly digtail encoding/decodeing acceration.Only sound chip that ever had output an AC3 or Dolby Digital 5.1 digital onboard was Nvidia soundstorm in the nf1/2.plus to they could inprove pretty much anything else the with too.
3)As it looks if they went the pciE root they could use just pciE lanes comming off the Sb and less linking through diffrent bus's coming off the SB and possably have room to put that pciX controller chip inside the SB freeing up more traces and the need for that chip and give the whole system a little less lagacy. plus alittle less complex and alitle more room again for some other onboard feat in the place of the PciX bridge chip would be if they want.
again sorry for any spelling mistakes and grammer its just not a truly easy subject to explane.Plus i love trying to understand everything about each peice of technogy.
But thats iMac territory. I really can't see them doing that. I'm highly doubting there will ever be a PowerMac lite, even if Apple decides to create an appropriate 3D workstation, and reduces the general PowerMac specs to what may be needed for 2D work I just can't see them doing that. I think they would alter the iMacs range first.
Actually, that's more like Dell territory. All in one's aren't for everyone.
Comments
Originally posted by onlooker
If your only going with 8x why not stick with AGP?
AGP is only fast in one way, PCI -E is fast both way.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
AGP is only fast in one way, PCI -E is fast both way.
Yes but, isn't it 8x 1 way, and 4x the other? I don't think the difference is worth retooling the whole board for it.
Originally posted by onlooker
Yes but, isn't it 8x 1 way, and 4x the other? I don't think the difference is worth retooling the whole board for it.
If my memory is correct it's only 1x for the other. That's say, currently it does not make a lot of difference.
Originally posted by onlooker
If your only going with 8x why not stick with AGP?
Because ATI and nVidia are phasing out AGP.
My (somewhat obtuse) point is that the 8641D seems usable in PowerBooks or iBooks.
onlooker Only on the opteron is that chipset on and yes it has 2 PCiEx16 slot's. THe Nforce 4 chipset THat The A64/FX socket 939 they are 2 full size x16 slot's but there connection inside of the slots when in sLI is x8.Intel 1 iwill xeon board has 2 PCIE slots for hacked sli but one slot has a x16 connection and the other is X4 connection in a x16 slot.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=2327
This is a link about what and how the NVIDIA nForce Professional works and its scalabity.IT will help u understand alittle about that tech.On there there a cell overview too if u want to check out.
The opterton has 3 hypertranport links Now with reversion E they are 1000MHz links.1 link for memory,1 for talking to the other cpu's and linking each cpu together and the 3rd is for linking it self with the southbridge.So giving that each chip can have its own dual channel ram.Like some boards u gotta have the second opteron to inable some of the mobo's onboardfeat's becuse it allows max troughtput when u have heavy demanding feats like scsi raid.
Higher bandwidth isn't such a huge big deal at the moment either -- witness the lack of any real improvement from AGP 4x to 8x. Again, it helps a little and more is better... but its not a really big motivator to change.
A big thing that PCI-E supports that AGP doesn't is multiple slots. In this age of dual headed cards though, this is really only useful for those of us with more than two monitors (or more than one of those big 30"ers!). A very small number indeed.
PCI-E does replace PCI so everything currently on your PCI bus stands to benefit from big bandwidth increases. I think it is also a better standard from an electrical point of view, but that's not my field so I can't really comment on it. The single biggest factor in favor of PCI-E? That it is going to be the new standard. That is why Apple will switch to it, but that doesn't really become relevant until it is a well established standard... some time this year.
So don't get so worked up over it, it really isn't such an earth shaking feature. If Apple doesn't have it by 2006 then its probably time to complain, but at the moment I'd worry more about the lack of 3 GHz, dual core chips, or a higher bandwidth, lower latency memory subsystem.
PCiE is a major inprovment over PCi\\X becuase.With a system with say just pci slots the total ban over the reg PCi bus from every slot and onboard feats like PAta\\Sata\\ubs\\firewire have to share a total of 133mb.PciX slots has to have a chip to control each slot.Example u have a bunch of diffrent grade PCi X slots u have to have diffrent chips on the motherboard to control each slot speed spec and then there linked with the SB chip.
With PCiE there XX many Links in The SB and then there split off from there to X many PciE slot and onboard feats.So think of this what would you want if u have a raid setup?have your hardrives fighting for its place in the 133mb space with other devices or being on it own lane getting 500mb i/o.PciE x1 link.Thats a god send for highend scsi severs than don't have to buy a specail pciX card.When they can buy a card that could be supported pretty much any motherboard that has a pciEx1/4/8 slot.
Btw my raid example is about a onboard raid controller.
Originally posted by Thomaz
I have a question does apple chipsets support fastwrite?
I'm thinking that it does, at least the late generation G4 chipsets. Note sure about the G5 chipsets.
PCiE is a major inprovment over PCi\\X becuase.With a system with say just pci slots the total ban over the reg PCi bus from every slot and onboard feats like PAta\\Sata\\ubs\\firewire have to share a total of 133mb.PciX slots has to have a chip to control each slot.
Yeah, except that Apple's systems aren't like this. For the G5 systems, core logic ASICs are bridged with Hypertransport links and PATA, SATA, 1394, and ethernet are integrated into the ASICs. The only things on the PCI bus are USB, Airport and the slots. For the G4 systems, all the major bandwidth features are integrated onto one system ASIC, and well, they don't have any PCI slots, or in the case of the 15+ inch Powerbooks, 1 Cardbus slot.
Apple needs to have PCIe for graphics compatibility eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later, with SLI or multi-rendering capability.
What i understand from apple site is everything is link with ht links.So i am wrong on apple part of what i have said about the g5.
THT G4's didn't have pci slots?I alway thought they did other than the mac mini.
Originally posted by Thomaz
THT G4's didn't have pci slots?I alway thought they did other than the mac mini.
iBooks, PowerBooks, and mini's don't have PCI slots. The graphics cards are soldered in I think.
Originally posted by Eric_Z
And the reson for DDR-2 is two fold, 1) to give the IO unrestricted mem access 2) Future proofing.
Power consumption.
Originally posted by Thomaz
It's just not less power when u talk about ddr2.Its about reaching much higher speeds than possable with ddr1 with speeds over 800mhz+.But what hurting it is its high cas timing cas 4 and 5,price and Dram makers like samsung is making DDR1 ram that can go DDR600+ and still have lower timings than ddr2.
Some random notes:
RAM manufacturers are already phasing out DDR production. Just as with SDRAM, DDR is going to become an expensive old technology. DDR2 is ramping in fast ( and DDR4 is following soon ).
PCI-E is the same, it doesnt matter if the technology makes a difference to the end user, for the people building the boards it is worthwhile, and moving into the market fast. not supporting it in new products is going to be suicide.
AGP 8x does support two slots, but no one ever made a chipset or a board that used it - because there were very few users who needed high speed 3d on 4 displays, and no one making SLI cards. I think it is being used by ATI, their IGP built in video will continue to work if you plug in an ATI AGP card, giving you 3 video outs.
If you have a look at card manufacturers, there are already plenty of nvidia 6200s coming onto the market ( PCI-E ) with only 16mb of vram. They host all of the textures in main system RAM ( upto 256mb ). Im sure that they dont perform very well, but what do users know, its a cheap card that can do everything.
PCI-E, like hypertransport, provides a fast way to connect to devices that is standardised. However, it is also flexible. Only want to give a device a 1x connection ( because of board space, or availble channels, or pins on the chip etc etc ) and you can. You can take a 16x video card, and mask off all of the pins except the 1x, and it will still run. That is just great technology for board designers.
The next gen memory after ddr2 is ddr3 its goin to be based of Gddr3 thats on video cards.
Gf6200 has upto 64mb of memory on boards
GeForce 6200 w/ TurboCache supporting 128MB, including 16MB of local TurboCache: $79
GeForce 6200 w/ TurboCache supporting 128MB, including 32MB of local TurboCache: $99
GeForce 6200 w/ TurboCache supporting 256MB, including 64MB of local TurboCache: $129
this is from here
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2300
Originally posted by Thomaz
Can u find me a good pic of a g5 motherboard and a good diagram showing the basic working of it? I am looking for one and can't find it at the moment.
Here's a Power Mac G5 (2 and 2.5 GHz) diagram:
Apple's Developer website is a good website for hardware diagrams.
Images of Apple motherboards can be found on Google. The Japanese site Kodawarisan has a lot of disassembly images. Some images can be found at xlr8yourmac.com/
THT G4's didn't have pci slots?I alway thought they did other than the mac mini.
Of course Power Mac G4s have PCI slots, but they are also about a year out of production and the odds of a G4 w/slot expansion is pretty close to zero. Something pretty incredible has to happen for Apple to ship a G4 based system with slots in the future.
I think everyone is in agreement that Apple needs to adopt PCIe (for graphics as minimum and I/O expansion later on) and a higher performance memory subsystem eventually. Sooner is definitely better than later. They also need to ship a lower cost Power Mac G5 in the ~$1000 range, and even ship dual-core processors in them. Dual-core 1.6 and 1.8 GHz would be fine, but I doubt it.
Originally posted by THT
They also need to ship a lower cost Power Mac G5 in the ~$1000 range, and even ship dual-core processors in them. Dual-core 1.6 and 1.8 GHz would be fine, but I doubt it.
But thats iMac territory. I really can't see them doing that. I'm highly doubting there will ever be a PowerMac lite, even if Apple decides to create an appropriate 3D workstation, and reduces the general PowerMac specs to what may be needed for 2D work I just can't see them doing that. I think they would alter the iMacs range first.
1)There the pci bus link to the ubs controller,blue tooth,airport,rom if they went with PciE x1 link it would help in using alot less traces on the board,less complexty on design of trying to get all them traces to work right and well better overall speed on them port's.
2)They could make the audio a pciE chip to support more than max of 24bit/48khz output to 24bit/96 or 192khz for true dvd support audio.Core audio what i can understand from apple developer support is 32bit\\48khz output.Give it a dobly digtail encoding/decodeing acceration.Only sound chip that ever had output an AC3 or Dolby Digital 5.1 digital onboard was Nvidia soundstorm in the nf1/2.plus to they could inprove pretty much anything else the with too.
3)As it looks if they went the pciE root they could use just pciE lanes comming off the Sb and less linking through diffrent bus's coming off the SB and possably have room to put that pciX controller chip inside the SB freeing up more traces and the need for that chip and give the whole system a little less lagacy. plus alittle less complex and alitle more room again for some other onboard feat in the place of the PciX bridge chip would be if they want.
again sorry for any spelling mistakes and grammer its just not a truly easy subject to explane.Plus i love trying to understand everything about each peice of technogy.
What the speed of the i2s bus?
Originally posted by onlooker
But thats iMac territory. I really can't see them doing that. I'm highly doubting there will ever be a PowerMac lite, even if Apple decides to create an appropriate 3D workstation, and reduces the general PowerMac specs to what may be needed for 2D work I just can't see them doing that. I think they would alter the iMacs range first.
Actually, that's more like Dell territory. All in one's aren't for everyone.