along with the theory that Apple will just name it Leopard. It's nice when your consumer base can refer to something by its code name, but call tech support at some time ... they'll ask you for a version number (7, 8, 9.x or 10.x.x) Point updates are crucial to understanding what software on your system needs to be patched
I understand that, but this operating system is not just one up from Tiger and I don't believe apple would let people think it is by using the name 10.5 - I have not heard it being called 10.5 by Apple.
Utter BS. The only reason Apple would want to personally do this is if they really really wanted to shit themselves in the foot. The only thing stopping developers from abandoning Carbon and Cocoa is because of the BootCamp restart (and they also haven't had enough to do so either). Apple has made many many compromises in the past, all of them very well placed. Like Mac's on Window's networks and BootCamp. Also Apple would see a large Stock Cripple and little support from shareholders. They would likely experience problems from their own staff and I doubt SJ would be prepared to give up. What many people forget on this forum is that it isn't about what you think is cool or what you think (untruthfully) everyone would want it's about (in this case) about not loosing to Bill Gates. Please don't assume this arriving. It's so unlikely.
Name-Change
I don't have a clue where you got this from. Either you stole it from someone else or you were living in a sewer for 5 years, which i don't know.
Personally the more insulting thing is that you had the gall to suggest such crap.
Support
Hmmmm. Like Apple doesn't continue to support OS .0-.3
Intel-Only Features
Seeing as i doubt that Apple is going to include XP virtualisation, where does the Intel-only feature-ette stem from?
And even if apple did include the said above I am sure they would include a Intel emulator in there as well.
Apple would never cut out features like you said they would. Only MS use that tactic to get themselves more money. Give me one example of Apple doing this and I will bow to you as the master. But otherwise just like everything in your post, your talking crap.
p.s. and why would it be unwise to sell isights to schools? One of the major uses of macs in schools is to use their technology to let the students become in touch with themselves (through film.......) its littered all over their education sub-site. Furthermore, children would have so much fun with PhotoBooth and Omni-graffle. So yer, what shit what fucking shit.
I understand that, but this operating system is not just one up from Tiger and I don't believe apple would let people think it is by using the name 10.5 - I have not heard it being called 10.5 by Apple.
You probably haven't heard it being called anything by Apple yet. I don't believe they've made any official announcement on the OS, so as far as they're concerned, the next OS X will be Mac OS X 10.5 "Leopard". When they get to OS X 10.9, then we might see a different naming scheme, but that's like 5 years away, so I'm not too worried about it at the moment.
You would have to reverse engineer Xp to make it work. That would result in MAJOR lawsuits from MS. And when Vista is released you would have to start all over again.
Bad bad idea.
You can't sue companies for clear-room reverse-engineering.
You can't sue companies for clear-room reverse-engineering.
Well in the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave" it seems congress states that not only can you get sued but they could haul your un-American butt to jail for doing such things but **ONLY** when it involves those POOR and HELPLESS folks out in Hollyweird/LaLaLand/etc that are trying their 'level headed best' to eek out a just a paltry living doing something they love and at the same time 'give back to others' just a little enjoyment...
edit: Yea I know I know... it's more than just the entertainment industry - it involves software developers - garage door openers (imagine that) AND even printer toner refill kits... Is this a SICK world or what.
You can't sue companies for clear-room reverse-engineering.
Correct. As long as they duplicate the functions of the Win32 APIs without looking at the actual Windows object code, it is perfectly legal.
Of course, there are undocumented APIs that Office uses to call into Windows that are a bit more of a challenge to identify and replicate. So your Wine - like product would have trouble running Office until those APIs are found and routines written to return what Office expects. That's tough, because you can't legally look at the Office object code either.
I really don't think they will ever let windows run under MacOS, it would basically turn Macs into windows PCs for too many people. This could lead to many sofware vendors only producing windows software and the eventaul death of MacOS. If you can run Office for PC side by side with iLife, why should they make Office for Mac?
I think the current situation with Boot camp is risky enough, but the penalty of having to re-boot keeps the wall between the OSes high enough that having software written for the Mac remains desirable. The current situtation is good for anyone who wants a Mac, but that one piece of saftware was keeping them from switching. also, any PC user that really like some software on the MAc side -like iLife- may by a Mac now and run it as a PC, but log into the Mac side to work on their home movie. Either case is a win for Apple.
I think its really pathetic that somebody can't simply post it into google and find out what it means, or get some education. How can one realistically comment on technology when they don't even have rudimentary mastery of the technology used to post their comments?
Anywho, I'm always interested in the prognostication* and am a bit torn about the whole windows on mac thing. Its practical, but somehow lessens the Mac to me. I don't really care that Apple will increase market share and in fact liked that it was mostly the 'cool' people (as I deem them) that used the mac. With beer gut Joe potentially joining the ranks it makes it less special.
OTOH, There are some programs I really want and had to buy a PC just to run those. I'd love to have just one box, but I just trashed my Mac trying to install xp yesterday (turns out I had the wrong Service pack and it killed my mac partition as well as not fully installing the windows part). I wish they had some way to make sure you had the right version.
I think Apple will simply refine the boot camp stuff a bit and leave virtualization to the 3rd party vendors who are already ramping up.
As to the OS name or version number, who cares? Why do people get so worked up over this stuff? I love the OS updates as I always have something to look forward to. THATS what keeps me interested in the platform; without regular updates I just move on to my other toys (Besides, I love seeing what gets fixed on my 6 page OS bug list with each patch).
I'm not going to predict it, but I'll at least wish for it: A total finder revamp. Finder sucks and even windows explorer is better.
*for the dimwitted and lazy:
prog·nos·ti·cate
To predict according to present indications or signs; foretell.
I may have written it poorly. I didn't mean windows virturalisation, consider it more of a windows replacement built into Leopard - the capacity to run windows programs without needing Windows XP - hence the need for there to be native support for windows as there WILL be bugs with the program for a long while due to the sheer number of programs that will have to be tested.
Windows is such a bloated pile of crap that virtualization or dual booting are the only options.
Integrating windows into OSX simply to run windows programs would be INCREDBILY hard and likely buggy as hell. Plus, they'd need the source code, which M$ won't allow.
As far as virtualization, I don't like that idea. Like I've said probably 3 times on this subject, if you allow windows programs to run within OS X, you allow windows VIRUSES to run within OS X. That's the breaks, kid
I'm even skiddish about dual-booting, given the fact that windows technically has access to the mac partitions. I believe you are even able to format OS X partitions from within windows, which will certainly lead to viruses adding a "deltree d:" into their little scripts.
Or, worse yet, if Apple releases an HFS+ driver for windows (so you can access your mac files while booted into XP), windows, not respecting OS X' permissions, could put in a system-level virus into the extensions.
This was the worry with OS 9 virtualization on macs--it had jack for security. However, Apple can't just put XP into a coffin and tell everyone to make all their apps OS X.
In fact, the worst part about running XP on a mac is that now windows has more marketshare now, making it an even better idea to develop XP-only instead of cross-platform.
My predicted timeline is as follows:
1) Marketshare for mac hardware rises, hopefully fast
2) Apple releases a ~$1,000 system with PCI slots (VERY IMPORTANT)
3) Important and major programs start becoming windows-only, however, drivers for 3rd party hardware go up, way up.
4) Just when the marketshare for mac hardware is about to fall, Apple releases a $200 version of OS X that runs on regular PCs
5) More programs than ever are released for 'Mac', and Apple's hardware marketshare falls through the floor. Apple is now an iPod/Software firm.
6) Apple drops all desktop lines except the powermac and laptops. The powermacs compete for the workstation market, the laptops are priced competitively and are rugged (as usual).
Then how come we never heard of a Windows virus attacking Linux machines that have been running Windows apps for at least a decade now?
You're talking about WINE--the windows virtualization software for linux.
And the reason you haven't heard of it is because linux users are inarguably more savvy and less likely to do things that might give them the cyber-herpes. Also, linux users are less likely to be shocked by getting a virus on their WINE partition and therefore wont be so vocal.
Yes, the windows viruses run in WINE just like the legitimate apps do, it even says so on their website (IIRC).
Also, windows viruses don't check if they're running in WINE (because it's so rare), so it's unlikely you'll see any problems with a virus in WINE to spreading to the linux partition.
This would likely be different for Mac users as a virus that invades the Mac through windows booting or virtualization would almost certainly make the headlines, especially on MSNBC (which has it out for Macs in almost every article they publish about them). More headlines = more likely.
It'd be suicide for Apple have integrated virtualization, simply because if even a couple viruses spring up, people will say "AH HAH! Macs aren't virus-free!"
It's a major selling-point--the lack of spyware/viruses. In fact, for people who haven't used a mac before, it's the main selling point.
My windows systems have been virus-free since I bought my first in 1999. If people were educated, spyware and viruses wouldn't be a selling point for macs. But they're not, so we need to keep this platform safe and secure. If that means cutting out features like windows virtualization, I say so be it.
I'll dual-boot windows for my needs or use 3rd party virtualization, but I'll sleep better knowing that Apple's selling more machines because their computers are safer out-of-the-box, and that'll mean a future for the platform I like best: OS X.
Virtualisation is fantastic. If the software from parallel is as good as it promises then the future from Macs is HUGE. From my perspective people won't want a Mac then install Windows to run the general apps (web, mail, office etc) they will want a Mac for these apps and more, then be forced to use Windows to use specific pieces of software. Visual Studio is a big one, I doubt there will ever be a Mac version and I know alot of developers that would switch in a heartbeat!
As a Software Engineer I bought a Mac cause I didn't want to mess around with Windows issues, but there is one piece of software I NEED to use which is Windows only. I asked the vendor for a Mac version and they have no intention of developing it (this is a $1200 development package). So I bought a barebones PC and use RDC to work on it. I will not let the PC near the internet, I use the Mac for this purpose. People will buy Mac's for their general usage and will utilise Virtualisation for specific needs, in time these needs will fade or disappear and all we will be left with are happy Mac users.
I think the best thing apple could do is create a Cocoa that runs under windows, then I could develop my programs using a Mac and simply run them on PC's for those unenlightened people Those that desire the robustness and reliability of OSX and Macs will shift and I can still target the larger PC market, one piece of software will cover both platforms. As it stands most software vendors (especially the smaller ones) will be forced to target the largest market segment.
Finally I would be SO happy if apple released a competitor to WinCE, that is a terrible piece of software. I would drop winCE and jump at the oppotunity to use an extremely light weight OS X on mobile devices.
Comments
Originally posted by AgNuke1707
along with the theory that Apple will just name it Leopard. It's nice when your consumer base can refer to something by its code name, but call tech support at some time ... they'll ask you for a version number (7, 8, 9.x or 10.x.x) Point updates are crucial to understanding what software on your system needs to be patched
I understand that, but this operating system is not just one up from Tiger and I don't believe apple would let people think it is by using the name 10.5 - I have not heard it being called 10.5 by Apple.
Utter BS. The only reason Apple would want to personally do this is if they really really wanted to shit themselves in the foot. The only thing stopping developers from abandoning Carbon and Cocoa is because of the BootCamp restart (and they also haven't had enough to do so either). Apple has made many many compromises in the past, all of them very well placed. Like Mac's on Window's networks and BootCamp. Also Apple would see a large Stock Cripple and little support from shareholders. They would likely experience problems from their own staff and I doubt SJ would be prepared to give up. What many people forget on this forum is that it isn't about what you think is cool or what you think (untruthfully) everyone would want it's about (in this case) about not loosing to Bill Gates. Please don't assume this arriving. It's so unlikely.
Name-Change
I don't have a clue where you got this from. Either you stole it from someone else or you were living in a sewer for 5 years, which i don't know.
Personally the more insulting thing is that you had the gall to suggest such crap.
Support
Hmmmm. Like Apple doesn't continue to support OS .0-.3
Intel-Only Features
Seeing as i doubt that Apple is going to include XP virtualisation, where does the Intel-only feature-ette stem from?
And even if apple did include the said above I am sure they would include a Intel emulator in there as well.
Apple would never cut out features like you said they would. Only MS use that tactic to get themselves more money. Give me one example of Apple doing this and I will bow to you as the master. But otherwise just like everything in your post, your talking crap.
p.s. and why would it be unwise to sell isights to schools? One of the major uses of macs in schools is to use their technology to let the students become in touch with themselves (through film.......) its littered all over their education sub-site. Furthermore, children would have so much fun with PhotoBooth and Omni-graffle. So yer, what shit what fucking shit.
Originally posted by fezzasus
I understand that, but this operating system is not just one up from Tiger and I don't believe apple would let people think it is by using the name 10.5 - I have not heard it being called 10.5 by Apple.
You probably haven't heard it being called anything by Apple yet. I don't believe they've made any official announcement on the OS, so as far as they're concerned, the next OS X will be Mac OS X 10.5 "Leopard". When they get to OS X 10.9, then we might see a different naming scheme, but that's like 5 years away, so I'm not too worried about it at the moment.
Originally posted by Anders
You would have to reverse engineer Xp to make it work. That would result in MAJOR lawsuits from MS. And when Vista is released you would have to start all over again.
Bad bad idea.
You can't sue companies for clear-room reverse-engineering.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
You can't sue companies for clear-room reverse-engineering.
Well in the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave" it seems congress states that not only can you get sued but they could haul your un-American butt to jail for doing such things but **ONLY** when it involves those POOR and HELPLESS folks out in Hollyweird/LaLaLand/etc that are trying their 'level headed best' to eek out a just a paltry living doing something they love and at the same time 'give back to others' just a little enjoyment...
edit: Yea I know I know... it's more than just the entertainment industry - it involves software developers - garage door openers (imagine that) AND even printer toner refill kits... Is this a SICK world or what.
Okay yes I'm referring to the DMCA.
...Sorry for the off topic post but it was the first think that came into my mind...
Dave
Originally posted by Gene Clean
You can't sue companies for clear-room reverse-engineering.
Correct. As long as they duplicate the functions of the Win32 APIs without looking at the actual Windows object code, it is perfectly legal.
Of course, there are undocumented APIs that Office uses to call into Windows that are a bit more of a challenge to identify and replicate. So your Wine - like product would have trouble running Office until those APIs are found and routines written to return what Office expects. That's tough, because you can't legally look at the Office object code either.
Originally posted by crampy20
I don't have a clue where you got this from. Either you stole it from someone else or you were living in a sewer for 5 years, which i don't know.
Personally the more insulting thing is that you had the gall to suggest such crap.
Dude, like, ad-hominem.
Originally posted by Chucker
Dude, like, ad-hominem.
Sorry? What does that mean, i presume its a reference to me being rude....
And Chucker is right. Refrain from personal attacks or we will get you
I think the current situation with Boot camp is risky enough, but the penalty of having to re-boot keeps the wall between the OSes high enough that having software written for the Mac remains desirable. The current situtation is good for anyone who wants a Mac, but that one piece of saftware was keeping them from switching. also, any PC user that really like some software on the MAc side -like iLife- may by a Mac now and run it as a PC, but log into the Mac side to work on their home movie. Either case is a win for Apple.
Originally posted by Anders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem.
And Chucker is right. Refrain from personal attacks or we will get you
Wikipedia doesnt even HAVE that article...
So what does it mean?
That is what you need to stop, okay?
Originally posted by Chucker
Dude, like, ad-hominem.
I think most ad hominem is wrong!
I agree, ad-hominem is bad.
I think its really pathetic that somebody can't simply post it into google and find out what it means, or get some education. How can one realistically comment on technology when they don't even have rudimentary mastery of the technology used to post their comments?
Anywho, I'm always interested in the prognostication* and am a bit torn about the whole windows on mac thing. Its practical, but somehow lessens the Mac to me. I don't really care that Apple will increase market share and in fact liked that it was mostly the 'cool' people (as I deem them) that used the mac. With beer gut Joe potentially joining the ranks it makes it less special.
OTOH, There are some programs I really want and had to buy a PC just to run those. I'd love to have just one box, but I just trashed my Mac trying to install xp yesterday (turns out I had the wrong Service pack and it killed my mac partition as well as not fully installing the windows part). I wish they had some way to make sure you had the right version.
I think Apple will simply refine the boot camp stuff a bit and leave virtualization to the 3rd party vendors who are already ramping up.
As to the OS name or version number, who cares? Why do people get so worked up over this stuff? I love the OS updates as I always have something to look forward to. THATS what keeps me interested in the platform; without regular updates I just move on to my other toys (Besides, I love seeing what gets fixed on my 6 page OS bug list with each patch).
I'm not going to predict it, but I'll at least wish for it: A total finder revamp. Finder sucks and even windows explorer is better.
*for the dimwitted and lazy:
prog·nos·ti·cate
To predict according to present indications or signs; foretell.
Originally posted by fezzasus
I may have written it poorly. I didn't mean windows virturalisation, consider it more of a windows replacement built into Leopard - the capacity to run windows programs without needing Windows XP - hence the need for there to be native support for windows as there WILL be bugs with the program for a long while due to the sheer number of programs that will have to be tested.
Windows is such a bloated pile of crap that virtualization or dual booting are the only options.
Integrating windows into OSX simply to run windows programs would be INCREDBILY hard and likely buggy as hell. Plus, they'd need the source code, which M$ won't allow.
As far as virtualization, I don't like that idea. Like I've said probably 3 times on this subject, if you allow windows programs to run within OS X, you allow windows VIRUSES to run within OS X. That's the breaks, kid
I'm even skiddish about dual-booting, given the fact that windows technically has access to the mac partitions. I believe you are even able to format OS X partitions from within windows, which will certainly lead to viruses adding a "deltree d:" into their little scripts.
Or, worse yet, if Apple releases an HFS+ driver for windows (so you can access your mac files while booted into XP), windows, not respecting OS X' permissions, could put in a system-level virus into the extensions.
This was the worry with OS 9 virtualization on macs--it had jack for security. However, Apple can't just put XP into a coffin and tell everyone to make all their apps OS X.
In fact, the worst part about running XP on a mac is that now windows has more marketshare now, making it an even better idea to develop XP-only instead of cross-platform.
My predicted timeline is as follows:
1) Marketshare for mac hardware rises, hopefully fast
2) Apple releases a ~$1,000 system with PCI slots (VERY IMPORTANT)
3) Important and major programs start becoming windows-only, however, drivers for 3rd party hardware go up, way up.
4) Just when the marketshare for mac hardware is about to fall, Apple releases a $200 version of OS X that runs on regular PCs
5) More programs than ever are released for 'Mac', and Apple's hardware marketshare falls through the floor. Apple is now an iPod/Software firm.
6) Apple drops all desktop lines except the powermac and laptops. The powermacs compete for the workstation market, the laptops are priced competitively and are rugged (as usual).
if you allow windows programs to run within OS X, you allow windows VIRUSES to run within OS X.
Then how come we never heard of a Windows virus attacking Linux machines that have been running Windows apps for at least a decade now?
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Then how come we never heard of a Windows virus attacking Linux machines that have been running Windows apps for at least a decade now?
You're talking about WINE--the windows virtualization software for linux.
And the reason you haven't heard of it is because linux users are inarguably more savvy and less likely to do things that might give them the cyber-herpes. Also, linux users are less likely to be shocked by getting a virus on their WINE partition and therefore wont be so vocal.
Yes, the windows viruses run in WINE just like the legitimate apps do, it even says so on their website (IIRC).
Also, windows viruses don't check if they're running in WINE (because it's so rare), so it's unlikely you'll see any problems with a virus in WINE to spreading to the linux partition.
This would likely be different for Mac users as a virus that invades the Mac through windows booting or virtualization would almost certainly make the headlines, especially on MSNBC (which has it out for Macs in almost every article they publish about them). More headlines = more likely.
It'd be suicide for Apple have integrated virtualization, simply because if even a couple viruses spring up, people will say "AH HAH! Macs aren't virus-free!"
It's a major selling-point--the lack of spyware/viruses. In fact, for people who haven't used a mac before, it's the main selling point.
My windows systems have been virus-free since I bought my first in 1999. If people were educated, spyware and viruses wouldn't be a selling point for macs. But they're not, so we need to keep this platform safe and secure. If that means cutting out features like windows virtualization, I say so be it.
I'll dual-boot windows for my needs or use 3rd party virtualization, but I'll sleep better knowing that Apple's selling more machines because their computers are safer out-of-the-box, and that'll mean a future for the platform I like best: OS X.
2. resolution independent displays
3. tabbed ichat with desktop sharing, ala netmeeting
4. new finder
As a Software Engineer I bought a Mac cause I didn't want to mess around with Windows issues, but there is one piece of software I NEED to use which is Windows only. I asked the vendor for a Mac version and they have no intention of developing it (this is a $1200 development package). So I bought a barebones PC and use RDC to work on it. I will not let the PC near the internet, I use the Mac for this purpose. People will buy Mac's for their general usage and will utilise Virtualisation for specific needs, in time these needs will fade or disappear and all we will be left with are happy Mac users.
I think the best thing apple could do is create a Cocoa that runs under windows, then I could develop my programs using a Mac and simply run them on PC's for those unenlightened people
Finally I would be SO happy if apple released a competitor to WinCE, that is a terrible piece of software. I would drop winCE and jump at the oppotunity to use an extremely light weight OS X on mobile devices.