Future graphics anyone, anything.

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
I was recently reading that games on Mac's were performing quite well under windows as many of you have. I was also reading that the identical games on Mac running under Windows were out performing their Mac OS counterparts.



Obviously we have a graphics problem on the Mac OS side of the fence. This is a critical component in todays computing, and Apple obviously must address it fairly soon. (at least by 2007 MWSF)



How do you think Apple will handle it?



(I'm not doing a poll so this topic can cover cards in the future)



Will they support Direct X now that they are using intel, and does intel even matter, or help them in developing a Mac OS Direct X?



What will become of OGL, and how will it catch up with DirectX?



Will they start using both / Can they start using both?



OGL has fallen far behind DirectX in the past few years. There is no way OGL will ever keep the pace IMO, because there is so much more development done on Direct X on a yearly basis than OGL it's scary.



If Apple starts using Direct X will they incorporate it's functionality into Core Image, and Core VIdeo?



There are a lot of questions to speculate on here - do we have any takers?

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 7
    ryanhryanh Posts: 116member
    Quote:

    Obviously we have a graphics problem on the Mac OS side of the fence. This is a critical component in todays computing, and Apple obviously must address it fairly soon. (at least by 2007 MWSF)



    I consider it more of a porting problem, as most games, atleast notable ones, are ported from windows versions. Thus, they are not exactly optimized to the point their windows counterparts are.



    Quote:

    Will they support Direct X now that they are using intel, and does intel even matter, or help them in developing a Mac OS Direct X?



    Maybe, but probably not. DirectX is an MS product, not something explicately for the x86 platform. However, I won't wholly discount it.



    Quote:

    What will become of OGL, and how will it catch up with DirectX? Will they start using both / Can they start using both?



    OGL has fallen far behind DirectX in the past few years. There is no way OGL will ever keep the pace IMO, because there is so much more development done on Direct X on a yearly basis than OGL it's scary.




    Isn't there OpenGL 2.0 or something that is being lauded?

    I'm not 100% about this. But ya, DX completely over shadows OGL.





    You raise some really good questions. The Mac platform for a long time [well, since OSX mostly] has been a great development platform for graphics but it's never been a gaming machine. I know that Apple knows they could really score big in this niche market and Boot Camp shows that. There is strong interest in running the newest PC games on the Mac, and doing it natively under OSX rather than booting into windows is probably preferred.



    Again, I think this is largely a development problem. There has never been an overly enticing reason for game developers to make games natively for the mac that aren't ports, save for Blizzard really. And it becomes reciprocal: no development leads to poor support for OGL. Poor support for OGL makes the Mac an unappealing platform for games. An unappealing platform leads to no development... and so on.



    I really don't know. Boot Camp really raises some good questions and I think you've addressed them. I, however, don't have the holistic answers. I would love to see native gameplay in OSX of the latest and greatest games. Is this possible? Probably. Will it happen? No idea.
  • Reply 2 of 7
    macroninmacronin Posts: 1,174member
    Funny thing is?



    OpenGL used to be THE graphics library for games?



    Then M$ came along, got scared at losing even a sliver of control over software used on Windows?



    So they purchased up a bunch of OpenGL IP from a beleagured SGI, and started pulling OpenGL code out of Windows, making games more reliant upon DirectX?



    Of course, OpenGL is still a first class citizen on the pro apps side of things?



    Frakkin' MicroSloth?



    Same thing they did to pro 3D with the purchase of Softimage way back when?



    Ported (rewrite, actually) to Windows NT, and dumped to Avid after the market started shifting towards Windows for DCC workstations?



    Putting the hurt on SGI in the meantime?



    Almost like they were setting SGI up to have a need for selling off IP for quick cash infusions?



    ;^p
  • Reply 3 of 7
    smirclesmircle Posts: 1,035member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by onlooker

    I was also reading that the identical games on Mac running under Windows were out performing their Mac OS counterparts.



    Since the hardware is the same now, this should be no surprise. MS can throw hundrets of developers on something like a graphics layer, and they have done so. Apple is both the smaller company and new to x86 (yes, I know, but they were focussing on PPC).



    We will see more benchmarks when productivity apps go universal, and they will most likely be in favor of Windows, too.



    Quote:

    Obviously we have a graphics problem on the Mac OS side of the fence. This is a critical component in todays computing, and Apple obviously must address it fairly soon. (at least by 2007 MWSF)



    They won't be able to fix it. OS X has the more modern windowmanager with transparencies and stuff, but the flip side is that it is slower. And presumably they don't have the manpower to patch in some expressway aimed at games. Vista might diminish the difference somewhat, but who knows yet.





    Quote:

    OGL has fallen far behind DirectX in the past few years. There is no way OGL will ever keep the pace IMO, because there is so much more development done on Direct X on a yearly basis than OGL it's scary.



    If Apple starts using Direct X will they incorporate it's functionality into Core Image, and Core VIdeo?




    OGL is still fine in most regards (especially Pro 3D), but not for games. This is, to a large part, due to the fact that game devs code to DirectX and than later do a port to OGL. OGL 2.0 does not change this.



    Apple would not incorporate DX functionality into CI and CV, because why would they? In conjunction with modern GFX chips, DX is - like OGL - a software layer directing the hardware engines but hardly providing any features on it's own. CI and DV are abstractions of DX and OGL. Apple would gain nothing from exposing DX calls in CI and DV - like they don't expose OGL here.



    Imho, Apple will let Mac gaming fall by the roadside for the time being (because it is in such a bad shape already) and focus on optimizing all parts of OS X. Maybe they will later resurrect it with a DX implementation, but don't hold your breath just now. There is at least one 3rd party DX lib available, maybe Apple will buy a license at one time or wait for a suitable OpenSource implementation.



    Till then, it's dual boot...
  • Reply 4 of 7
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ryanh

    I consider it more of a porting problem, as most games, atleast notable ones, are ported from windows versions. Thus, they are not exactly optimized to the point their windows counterparts are.





    Not really. Just look at d00m 3 and Quake 4. Its OpenGL on both sides, yet d00m3 runs at 2x the fps on Windows compared to mac on the same machine.
  • Reply 5 of 7
    kim kap solkim kap sol Posts: 2,987member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch

    Not really. Just look at d00m 3 and Quake 4. Its OpenGL on both sides, yet d00m3 runs at 2x the fps on Windows compared to mac on the same machine.



    Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions. The latest version of Cinebench uses Apple's recommended OpenGL codepath and it runs faster under OS X than under Windows.
  • Reply 6 of 7
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,457member
    Using DirectX simply is not an option -- this isn't a technology MS has "opened up", and its rapid rate of change means Apple would have just as hard a time keeping up in terms of implementation even if they could license it. The "problem" with Apple's OpenGL is that specific paths are optimized, but these are different paths than are optimized under specific PC drivers that you are benchmarking against. On the optimized paths, if used by the application properly, the Mac will actually outperform. This is not a simple problem.
  • Reply 7 of 7
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    The Mac Version of Quake 4 on a Mac w/intel has been released. Even though I'm not that interested in Gaming as a pastime I'd like to see a side by side comparison. Both running on identical Macs, one under Boot-Camp, and Windows, and one with OS X.
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