Because I certainly do find it annoying to close the window, like you do, and then have to launch the app all over again. For no reason I can fathom.</strong><hr></blockquote>
because its a single window app and closing it leaves you with nothing. so Apple's new theory for single window apps is that closing the window quits the app
<strong>so Apple's new theory for single window apps is that closing the window quits the app</strong><hr></blockquote>Actually, it's not a new theory at all. Apple's used this technique since System 6, maybe earlier.
I like it.
Why would you close the window if you weren't finished with it?
I close the window to get my desktop back (although I know I could control-h it or send it dockwards), in the same way you would with iTunes, and the bastard winks out of the dock like a guilty-looking sailor.
The problem is that iPhoto takes so God-damned long to load. It's nice for something small and lightweight like the Address Book, but iPhoto takes at least five seconds to launch completely on this 466MHz G4 with 384MB RAM (and no, I'm not just talking about when the icon stops bouncing).
Sherlock 3 doesn't hit the hay when you close that window, either, oddly.
<strong>Actually, it's not a new theory at all. Apple's used this technique since System 6, maybe earlier.
I like it.
Why would you close the window if you weren't finished with it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't like it, not one bit. And in practicality, only a few tiny apps have ever used this 'technique.' Calculator is one. I don't like it because of consistency. If I hit the red window widget, I want the action performed to be the same for pretty much every app, even the calculator. It's little inconsistencies like this and other window behaviors that annoy me...
And closing a window is one of the most intuitive ways to get that window out of the way completely. Minimizing puts the window in the dock. Why should the app assume I'm done with it just because I want to unclutter the screen for a while?
<strong>And in practicality, only a few tiny apps have ever used this 'technique.'</strong><hr></blockquote>Today, only a few do, but with Classic, all the old Control Panels and DAs used this technique.
[quote]<strong>Why should the app assume I'm done with it just because I want to unclutter the screen for a while?</strong><hr></blockquote>Perhaps I've just been using Windows a bit too much lately and have gotten more used to this.
<strong>Today, only a few do, but with Classic, all the old Control Panels and DAs used this technique.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Most control panels were inits, pretty much like extensions. They are loaded on boot anyway, so clicking on them launched them instantaneously. Also, most of them didn't even have their own menubars.
Pre-X it made more sense. I remember going in to the computer lab at college and having to quit 5 or 6 apps because someone closed the window and thought they were gone.
But it still screws me up sometimes to have the IE browser window closed or no Word doc open, and I think I'm in the Finder but I'm not.
That's never been a problem for me. Close the window, gain some desktop without having to relaunch the application. But some consistency would be nice, I agree.
If I'd like to quit an application, I would tell that application to quit. If I'd like to close a window (whether in the finder or an application), I would tell the window to close. However now, I can tell a window to close, and I quit the application, sometimes, also. There is inconsistency in this behavior, for there is no clear pattern to which application responds this way, which confuses a user.
If you say an application with one window functions this way now, I'd like an explanation for why System Preferences, Sherlock, and iTunes do not quit when closing the window. You are allowed to clear these applications off the desktop but have them loaded for easy access. Why would all applications not function the same way?
It is a pain, plus a waste of time and system resources, to reload the program every time you access it. As said previously, I am quite capable of making the choice to close or quit an application myself, and I'd prefer to do it. An easy solution would be to make this behavior an option within each application's preferences. The user should have control of their system's behavior. In this way, they can optimize its performance to their preference.
<strong>The Mac way of leaving the app running while there were no app windows has never made sense to me. Never will.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're thinking like a Windows user (what a surprise.) First of all, in Windows there's no everpresent menubar. When you close the last window, you also lose the last menu. That's the only reason why Windows uses this convention.
In Mac OS, when I click a window-close button, I expect the window to close, and not the app to quit. if I want the app to quit, I tell it to quit.
The only one not making sense is you. You can't compare Windows to Mac OS here because of the way the UIs are designed.
The Windows UI is quite dumb in this regard, and of course many software makers try to combat this by using the Multiple-Document Interface (MDI.) You know...like how mIRC has one big window and lots of little windows inside it that ONLY exist inside that main window? The only reason why MDI even exists is to bring a centralized menubar to Windows. Who needs one menubar per window anyway? The author of mIRC certainly doesn't need more than one. MDI is quite dumb in itself too. Why even bother enveloping the windows in one giant window? That's severely limiting. That's like how iMovie has so much wasted space on large monitors because it's a full-screen app instead of optionally a single window app. MDI creates wasted space. With QuickTime 4 for Windows, Apple tried using a single floating menubar...of course almost every Windows user became so utterly confused by it Apple went back to putting menus in each new QuickTime window. I think the floating window was the best compromise. It did the job of MDI without wasting screen-space.
Look at all that wasted gray-space:
All in the name of bringing a single unified menubar to Windows...
Doesn't the following make a whole lot more sense?
Another way to look at it. Think of all Mac OS apps as similar to Windows MDI apps, except:
1) The parent window is the size of the screen
2) The parent window is transparent
When you close a daughter window within an MDI application in Windows, does it quit? No. Only when you close the parent window does the app quit, right?
When you close a daughter window in a Mac OS app, should it quit? No. If I want to quit the app, I close the parent window of the app, the menubar.
Another reason why even single window apps shouldn't quit when you close the last window... See how iCal's icon shows the current date in the dock when the app is running? When it's not running it shows July 17 (day of announcement.)
Unlike the menubar clock in the upper right corner, I don't have to click on it to find out the date. At this point, even if all I want is the current date to show up on my iCal dock icon, I have to have the window open (it can be hidden, but that takes an extra step.)
I'm beginning to detest the "Quit on Close" paradigm even more. It just doesn't make any sense for Mac OS.
Comments
<strong>Is there a reason for this?
Or am I shtuppid to find it annoying?
Because I certainly do find it annoying to close the window, like you do, and then have to launch the app all over again. For no reason I can fathom.</strong><hr></blockquote>
because its a single window app and closing it leaves you with nothing. so Apple's new theory for single window apps is that closing the window quits the app
<strong>so Apple's new theory for single window apps is that closing the window quits the app</strong><hr></blockquote>Actually, it's not a new theory at all. Apple's used this technique since System 6, maybe earlier.
I like it.
Why would you close the window if you weren't finished with it?
I close the window to get my desktop back (although I know I could control-h it or send it dockwards), in the same way you would with iTunes, and the bastard winks out of the dock like a guilty-looking sailor.
I still find it annoying.
<strong>I wish System Preferences would quit when I close the damn window.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, that would be great.
Sherlock 3 doesn't hit the hay when you close that window, either, oddly.
<strong>Actually, it's not a new theory at all. Apple's used this technique since System 6, maybe earlier.
I like it.
Why would you close the window if you weren't finished with it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't like it, not one bit. And in practicality, only a few tiny apps have ever used this 'technique.' Calculator is one. I don't like it because of consistency. If I hit the red window widget, I want the action performed to be the same for pretty much every app, even the calculator. It's little inconsistencies like this and other window behaviors that annoy me...
And closing a window is one of the most intuitive ways to get that window out of the way completely. Minimizing puts the window in the dock. Why should the app assume I'm done with it just because I want to unclutter the screen for a while?
[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
tee-hee-hee
*windows troll mode*
<strong>*windows troll mode*
tee-hee-hee
*windows troll mode*</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
As if you had any other modes. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>And in practicality, only a few tiny apps have ever used this 'technique.'</strong><hr></blockquote>Today, only a few do, but with Classic, all the old Control Panels and DAs used this technique.
[quote]<strong>Why should the app assume I'm done with it just because I want to unclutter the screen for a while?</strong><hr></blockquote>Perhaps I've just been using Windows a bit too much lately and have gotten more used to this.
Bad Windows! Bad!
:slaps wrist:
[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: Brad ]</p>
<strong>Today, only a few do, but with Classic, all the old Control Panels and DAs used this technique.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Most control panels were inits, pretty much like extensions. They are loaded on boot anyway, so clicking on them launched them instantaneously. Also, most of them didn't even have their own menubars.
Pre-X it made more sense. I remember going in to the computer lab at college and having to quit 5 or 6 apps because someone closed the window and thought they were gone.
But it still screws me up sometimes to have the IE browser window closed or no Word doc open, and I think I'm in the Finder but I'm not.
<strong>The Mac way of leaving the app running while there were no app windows has never made sense to me. Never will.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It took me some time too, but I like it better. It's the inconsistency between apps that gets me.
If I'd like to quit an application, I would tell that application to quit. If I'd like to close a window (whether in the finder or an application), I would tell the window to close. However now, I can tell a window to close, and I quit the application, sometimes, also. There is inconsistency in this behavior, for there is no clear pattern to which application responds this way, which confuses a user.
If you say an application with one window functions this way now, I'd like an explanation for why System Preferences, Sherlock, and iTunes do not quit when closing the window. You are allowed to clear these applications off the desktop but have them loaded for easy access. Why would all applications not function the same way?
It is a pain, plus a waste of time and system resources, to reload the program every time you access it. As said previously, I am quite capable of making the choice to close or quit an application myself, and I'd prefer to do it. An easy solution would be to make this behavior an option within each application's preferences. The user should have control of their system's behavior. In this way, they can optimize its performance to their preference.
[ 09-10-2002: Message edited by: Donny ]
[ 09-10-2002: Message edited by: Donny ]</p>
<strong>The Mac way of leaving the app running while there were no app windows has never made sense to me. Never will.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're thinking like a Windows user (what a surprise.) First of all, in Windows there's no everpresent menubar. When you close the last window, you also lose the last menu. That's the only reason why Windows uses this convention.
In Mac OS, when I click a window-close button, I expect the window to close, and not the app to quit. if I want the app to quit, I tell it to quit.
The only one not making sense is you. You can't compare Windows to Mac OS here because of the way the UIs are designed.
The Windows UI is quite dumb in this regard, and of course many software makers try to combat this by using the Multiple-Document Interface (MDI.) You know...like how mIRC has one big window and lots of little windows inside it that ONLY exist inside that main window? The only reason why MDI even exists is to bring a centralized menubar to Windows. Who needs one menubar per window anyway? The author of mIRC certainly doesn't need more than one. MDI is quite dumb in itself too. Why even bother enveloping the windows in one giant window? That's severely limiting. That's like how iMovie has so much wasted space on large monitors because it's a full-screen app instead of optionally a single window app. MDI creates wasted space. With QuickTime 4 for Windows, Apple tried using a single floating menubar...of course almost every Windows user became so utterly confused by it Apple went back to putting menus in each new QuickTime window. I think the floating window was the best compromise. It did the job of MDI without wasting screen-space.
Look at all that wasted gray-space:
All in the name of bringing a single unified menubar to Windows...
Doesn't the following make a whole lot more sense?
1) The parent window is the size of the screen
2) The parent window is transparent
When you close a daughter window within an MDI application in Windows, does it quit? No. Only when you close the parent window does the app quit, right?
When you close a daughter window in a Mac OS app, should it quit? No. If I want to quit the app, I close the parent window of the app, the menubar.
[ 09-10-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
Unlike the menubar clock in the upper right corner, I don't have to click on it to find out the date. At this point, even if all I want is the current date to show up on my iCal dock icon, I have to have the window open (it can be hidden, but that takes an extra step.)
I'm beginning to detest the "Quit on Close" paradigm even more. It just doesn't make any sense for Mac OS.