New imovie (ilife 08) / Camcorder purchase.

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Hi all,



I was waiting for the new imac to come out to see if I liked it before making some more hardware purchases. I wish it looked like the iphone or the apple displays but hey ho it doesn't (I don't like the black surround or the keyboard). I am really excited about ilife 08 and will be getting it.



I am also about to buy a high def camcorder. I had been looking at the canon hv20 and the sony hc but with all the other formats being read in the new imovie I obviously have more choice.



Has anyone else looked into the other hard disk camcorders. Which formats are best now given that they call can be imported using imovie. I also heard Steve Jobs mention the panasonics. Is there a reason for that?? What makes them good?



Any help would be appreciated.



Poppet

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 11
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    I'm in similar boat. Would like an HD camcorder. As far as I know, the Pany SJ used in the iMovie demo uses the AVCHD codec. It's only supported by iMovie 08. I don't believe any of the other Apple video editing apps can handle it. I'm concerned about iMovie 08 as many who've tried it don't like it. HD camcorders do look sweet though. I'm starting to lean towards the canon hv 20 even though tapes are probably on the way out. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.
  • Reply 2 of 11
    poppetpoppet Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    I'm in similar boat. Would like an HD camcorder. As far as I know, the Pany SJ used in the iMovie demo uses the AVCHD codec. It's only supported by iMovie 08. I don't believe any of the other Apple video editing apps can handle it. I'm concerned about iMovie 08 as many who've tried it don't like it. HD camcorders do look sweet though. I'm starting to lean towards the canon hv 20 even though tapes are probably on the way out. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.



    I hear what you say. I joined the discussion on imovie 08. Somethings about it suck all though I haven't had a go with it. Sounds like all the control is taken away with it. I saw that on the sony website the hd camcorders are now supported in final cut. I have never used this app and have no idea of cost. Are you saying that these apps struggle with avchd. I thought they were suppose to be pro apps.



    I too liked the sound of the hd camcorders. I liked the idea having the files all tidy in imovie 08. At the moment with 06 I have a file with loads of clips I have taken using my isight and its starting to look rather messy.



    Seems strange that people are talking about the new imovie having little control over the sound. I don't know about you but I take lots of footage with different sound levels, the beach, swimming pool, house with an echo blah blah blah.



    Lets hope we can get some more views on this one to.
  • Reply 3 of 11
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Poppet View Post


    hd camcorders are now supported in final cut. I have never used this app and have no idea of cost. Are you saying that these apps struggle with avchd. I thought they were suppose to be pro apps.



    I too liked the sound of the hd camcorders. I liked the idea having the files all tidy in imovie 08. At the moment with 06 I have a file with loads of clips I have taken using my isight and its starting to look rather messy.



    Seems strange that people are talking about the new imovie having little control over the sound. I don't know about you but I take lots of footage with different sound levels, the beach, swimming pool, house with an echo blah blah blah.



    Lets hope we can get some more views on this one to.



    I went to Apple's website. FC express doesn't seem to support AVCHD. Final Cut does. The codec is new and isn't well supported by many video editing apps, including Adobe. I suspect that will change but who knows when? BTW final cut express is $299. I'm looking for a less expensive app as I'm just using it for home movies and the like. From discussions I read at MW and at the Apple website the software is playing catch up to the hardware

    .

    http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/edit...less/index.php

    Read the discussions here, very informative.



    http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...&nplm=MA261Z/A

    Read the customer reviews, again verty informative.



    Lastly one more thread I found interesting, although a bit old. Picked it up at the discussion on MW.

    http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...JVC-GZ-HD7.htm



    Ideally, I would like a high def HDD camcorder that can be exported directly into iMovie 06. At least until the bugs get worked out of iMovie 08.



    i'm curious to know what others think as I still trying to decide where to go.
  • Reply 4 of 11
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    The problem with AVCHD (mpeg 4) editing is that its more efficient compression (over mpeg 2) requires more non-linear analysis of adjacent frames, which requires more computational power. HDV and AVCHD are both "long GOP" formats, but AVCHD does more and more sophisticated analysis on bidirectional and predictive frames.



    Which is why it has taken a while for NLEs to offer AVCHD editing-- it just takes much more oomph to edit. The new iMovie does, although I would really want to see some performance numbers before I took the plunge. Apple has posted those stiff minimum system requirements for a reason. I also suspect the AVCHD overhead is why Apple restricted some of the features on iMovie '08-- some of those video effects and transitions just weren't going to be possible with AVCHD and today's consumer machines. That may also have something to do with the loss of a timeline-- AVCHD doesn't really have "timecode", so deriving a frame accurate time readout may be beyond what Apple was willing to do.



    The other down-sides to AVCHD, at the moment, are shorter battery life for the camcorders (because of the more computationally intensive encoding that has to happen), more expensive media (in the case of the DVD based camcorders), shorter media length (usually about 20 minutes against tape based HDV's hour, and although HDD camcorders will inevitably get bigger and bigger drives there's still the issue of where you stash stuff-- you can take enough Mini-DV tape in a shoe box to acquire 40 hours of video, but even an HDD capable of holding two hours of footage will have to be downloaded before you can do anything else).



    Also, and this is just based on some reviews I've read, the current AVCHD camcorders have noisier images than tape based HDV equivalents. On paper, AVCHD ought to be able to outperform HDV hands down, so it might be that manufacturers are using lower bit rates to extend recording time.



    I think AVCHD is going to eclipse HDV eventually, but just at this moment if I were buying an HD camcorder I'd probably get the Canon HV20. It's just a great camcorder, with some great features, 80 minute recording time to easily swapped out and inexpensive mini-DV tape and second to none image quality. I can render off the finished product to anything I like, so the acquisition medium doesn't matter over the long haul, as long as I have some way of playing it back. Plus, I can store my footage for future use without having to tie up many many GB of hard drive space.



    It also gives me a fighting chance of being able to edit and render my footage at a non-glacial pace. I'm already hearing some complaints about iMovie '08's performance, I'm interested to know if those complaints are coming from people trying to edit AVCHD footage or no.



    But, really, the Canon looks hot.
  • Reply 5 of 11
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Adda,



    Thanks for the comments. You obviously know more than I do and I appreciate your response. It mirrors closely what was said at camcorderinfo.com in their test of several HD camcorders.
  • Reply 6 of 11
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    Adda,



    Thanks for the comments. You obviously know more than I do and I appreciate your response. It mirrors closely what was said at camcorderinfo.com in their test of several HD camcorders.



    Your welcome. Also, don't forget that the Canon HV20 has a true 24p mode, which both increases sensitivity at low light levels and delivers a more film-like image (which I personally prefer).
  • Reply 7 of 11
    poppetpoppet Posts: 90member
    addabox,



    My thanks too. This is the sort of things I have been hearing but just not so well put. I like the idea of keeping some tapes for special occasions. Just an extra back up. I have one of the latest macbooks so spec shouldn't be a problem but I would rather not push it to its limits. I was all out for rushing to get the new movie but glad I didn't!!!!



    Do you have any experience on the sony hc7 v's canon hv20?



    Thanks



    J
  • Reply 8 of 11
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Poppet View Post


    addabox,



    My thanks too. This is the sort of things I have been hearing but just not so well put. I like the idea of keeping some tapes for special occasions. Just an extra back up. I have one of the latest macbooks so spec shouldn't be a problem but I would rather not push it to its limits. I was all out for rushing to get the new movie but glad I didn't!!!!



    Do you have any experience on the sony hc7 v's canon hv20?



    Thanks



    J



    Not these specific models, but my general experience with Sony vs. Canon camcorders is that while the Sony gives a slightly more solid and "pro" feel out of the box, their all over failure rates are higher.



    It's kinda a vexing thing with Sony gear-- even though their designs and feature set sometimes make me want a particular Sony item, I always feel like it's a crap shoot, quality control wise.



    At any rate, according to the reviews I've read, the Canon outperforms the Sony for image quality and ease of use, while the Sony has more manual control and is a little smaller/lighter.



    But the value of that 24p thing should not be underestimated.
  • Reply 9 of 11
    poppetpoppet Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Not these specific models, but my general experience with Sony vs. Canon camcorders is that while the Sony gives a slightly more solid and "pro" feel out of the box, their all over failure rates are higher.



    It's kinda a vexing thing with Sony gear-- even though their designs and feature set sometimes make me want a particular Sony item, I always feel like it's a crap shoot, quality control wise.



    At any rate, according to the reviews I've read, the Canon outperforms the Sony for image quality and ease of use, while the Sony has more manual control and is a little smaller/lighter.



    But the value of that 24p thing should not be underestimated.



    Ok Thanks
  • Reply 10 of 11
    I was playing around with the new iMovie last night, I took a small movie from my canon digital camera, added a fade in and fade out transition, and title bar, and sent it out to my .mac web gallery.



    I was surprised by the performance- everything was realtime and compressing it out and uploading it to .mac took maybe about 10 seconds. This was a small video, about 8 seconds, but even on the 2.0 core duo (not 2) macbook w/ a gig of RAM handled everything in realtime. I was pretty shocked because in iMovie 6 I would have to to import the movie (and wait), render all the transitions (and wait), render the title (and wait), export the movie to .mac (and wait).



    It seemed really fast- I'm anxious to see the DV and HDV performance on my slow(er) macbook...overall editing the clips together was awesome- color me impressed!
  • Reply 11 of 11
    poppetpoppet Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tacojohn View Post


    I was playing around with the new iMovie last night, I took a small movie from my canon digital camera, added a fade in and fade out transition, and title bar, and sent it out to my .mac web gallery.



    I was surprised by the performance- everything was realtime and compressing it out and uploading it to .mac took maybe about 10 seconds. This was a small video, about 8 seconds, but even on the 2.0 core duo (not 2) macbook w/ a gig of RAM handled everything in realtime. I was pretty shocked because in iMovie 6 I would have to to import the movie (and wait), render all the transitions (and wait), render the title (and wait), export the movie to .mac (and wait).



    It seemed really fast- I'm anxious to see the DV and HDV performance on my slow(er) macbook...overall editing the clips together was awesome- color me impressed!



    For things like that imovie 08 looks the way to go. I recently made movie that was about 15 minutes long with movie clips from my sony w series digital and photos, isight stuff and other sources like mobile phone. I added music. A few transitions. Used the time line to shorten clips frame by frame and one thing that was really messed up because of using multiple devices was the sound. I played around with the sound levels in each clip, faded them in a out when need to it was so harsh (loud noise at the beach and swimming pool). Will I be able to do all this stuff with imovie 08? From what I have read the features are missing. I don't think I will be getting it just yet
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