Is Mac OS still Apple's Crown Jewels?

Posted:
in macOS edited January 2014
Give the fact that Apple had to pull resources from the development of Leopard in order to complete the development of the iPhone, and the state of the final release of Leopard, do you think that Apple still considers Mac OS to be the Crown Jewels?

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 19
    ke^inke^in Posts: 98member
    I think Steve needs to get back on track. I realize that iPhone is big, and has potential. But 10.5 is a mess. Not in a Vista mess way. But in a "Not like Mac OS" sort of way.
  • Reply 2 of 19
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Yes, OS X is without doubt still Apple's "Crown Jewels". The situation with 10.5 is slightly odd. Several of the "finishing touches", GUI wise, are indeed a mess (stacks; the 3D dock; transparent menu bar; despite claiming to have delivered a "consistent look and feel", they really, really haven't).



    However, this belies the state of the guts of the system. Apple have made many commendable improvements and have laid some solid foundations for the future. The underpinnings of OS X demonstrate a much more rigorous approach to design than the higher layers.



    I suggest that you both read the ARS review of OS X. Maybe it'll change your view of the "state of OS X".
  • Reply 3 of 19
    ke^inke^in Posts: 98member
    I just want to add, that I love the 3D dock. And I had read that ARS review before posting what I did.



    What OS X is GOING TO BE isn't what OS X is right now. And that is what we were talking about.



    \



    I agree, in the future 10.5. whatever or 10.6 is really gonna rock. 10.5 just isn't there yet. The article even comments about the odd behavior and inconsistent GUI.



    I just hope I am able to change the GUI elements. I've been studying info before trying. When I mean elements, I am referring to the scroll bars etc.
  • Reply 4 of 19
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ke^in View Post


    IWhat OS X is GOING TO BE isn't what OS X is right now. And that is what we were talking about.



    It's what I'm talking about too. The underpinnings of OS X are solid, state-of-the-art stuff. I'd rather have a GUI with niggling issues on top of a solid underpinning than a properly consistent UI on top of a flaky mess. If you prefer the second option, perhaps OS 9 is a good idea?



    At least the improvements required in 10.5 are on the superficial side. All we have to hope is that someone at Apple Gets A Fucking Clue?



    There is one problem though, as highlighted by you. You are complaining about idiotic UI, yet you like the 3D dock? Maybe someone else thinks the 3D dock is idiotic, but thinks that stuff that you don't like is the best thing since exposé? Who should make the decisions about what is and is not good UI?
  • Reply 5 of 19
    ke^inke^in Posts: 98member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    It's what I'm talking about too. The underpinnings of OS X are solid, state-of-the-art stuff. I'd rather have a GUI with niggling issues on top of a solid underpinning than a properly consistent UI on top of a flaky mess. If you prefer the second option, perhaps OS 9 is a good idea?







    You are taking things I have said, and spinning them into extreme bizarre versions of how I feel about 10.5. I love 10.5. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't have bugs, or doesn't feel "rushed". And I have spoken with people that work with Apple. They say a lot of their top GUI and code monkeys were pulled off of 10.X.X to work on the iPhone. This slowed down OS development some. This complaint has nothing to do with the fact that Apple made improvements underneath. I love the improvements they made. That doesn't mean I can't complain about parts that ARE wrong without totally wanting to use a new OS does it? Of course not. This is called constructive criticism. Obviously 10.5 wasn't as "unified" as Apple was originally hoping. And YES I am glad that they got the INTERIOR done, which IS more important btw, and fixed it first. (even though there are still bugs, All OSs have bugs. Even "finished" ones.)

    Quote:

    At least the improvements required in 10.5 are on the superficial side. All we have to hope is that someone at Apple Gets A Fucking Clue?



    Not all of them.. and it depends on what you consider superficial. It would take someone a considerable amount of time to change the Finder to match iTunes. More than you think it would. Of course if you had Apple's internal theme application it might not... but we don't have that luxury. (Oh the possibilities!)

    Quote:

    There is one problem though, as highlighted by you. You are complaining about idiotic UI, yet you like the 3D dock? Maybe someone else thinks the 3D dock is idiotic, but thinks that stuff that you don't like is the best thing since exposé? Who should make the decisions about what is and is not good UI?



    There are certain things that are taste, and there are certain things that don't fall under taste.



    Not liking the itunes scroll bar and liking the Aqua scrollbar is a taste thing.



    The two not being consistent however isn't subjective. They clearly are not.



    And Apple's Unified theme DOES clash with Aqua. This isn't a "taste" thing. The Ars tech article even mentions it.



    That is why I commented on it feeling unfinished. They had a lot of GUI testing to do to get it to work and look like iTunes and it be functional all around (I've been messing about the past two days on it) and it seems like they ran out of time. And put out what they had finished GUI wise so far.



    That isn't saying OS X 10.5 is useless. Or it's a POS. Hardly. I've been complaining about Apple GUI inconsistencies since Apple started with the 5 different window views etc.



    I wasn't really a Aqua fan. Esp 10.0.0. But at least it was CONSISTENT.
  • Reply 6 of 19
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Ke^in, it seems that you and I are on the same page. I love OS X and wouldn't use anything else, but the GUI issues are driving me crazy.



    As an example, the "sidebar" of iTunes, Mail and Finder, on the surface, look identical. But why don't they all work in the same way? Why is the Mail one the only one with a visual identifier (at the bottom) indicating that it can be resized horizontally? Why, to remove things from the Finder sidebar do you drag stuff off it and watch it go "poof", but in iTunes, you just select it and press the delete key, and in Mail you have to right-click and choose "delete?"?



    Someone at Apple should decide what a sidebar should look like and how all the elements on it should behave. Then there should be an API to provide that functionality so that everyone, Apple and third parties, can use the sidebar and it will look and behave in the same consistent manner for everyone. This is basic UI stuff, that for some reason isn't happening right now at Apple.
  • Reply 7 of 19
    ke^inke^in Posts: 98member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Ke^in, it seems that you and I are on the same page. I love OS X and wouldn't use anything else, but the GUI issues are driving me crazy.



    There we go. That pretty much sums me up. I love that even on my 1.24ghz G4 that Safari renders pages even faster, that the GUI is even more responsive. That they added in folder space options now too! I love the new 3d dock. I LOVE all the new views I get. There are more things I love about 10.5 than what I dislike. But it's obvious the GUI has been rushed. And that it's not going to look like this forever.

    Quote:

    As an example, the "sidebar" of iTunes, Mail and Finder, on the surface, look identical. But why don't they all work in the same way? Why is the Mail one the only one with a visual identifier (at the bottom) indicating that it can be resized horizontally? Why, to remove things from the Finder sidebar do you drag stuff off it and watch it go "poof", but in iTunes, you just select it and press the delete key, and in Mail you have to right-click and choose "delete?"?



    EXACTLY! This is the consistency I am talking about. Once you learn ONE sidebar, you shouldn't have to learn another. They should all be the same. This is one of the reasons the Mac OS was "better" than the other OSs. It was simply more consistent. It was easy to migrate from application to application because you didn't have to re-learn a new GUI. Adobe, while I LOVE their products (I use InDesign, Illustrator, and Photoshop all day long at work) are HORRIBLE at consistency and Apple. They follow their own GUI rules. As far as GUI goes AND key commands. Try cmd m a Photoshop window. Instead of going to the Dock, it pops up the "curves" command.

    Quote:

    Someone at Apple should decide what a sidebar should look like and how all the elements on it should behave. Then there should be an API to provide that functionality so that everyone, Apple and third parties, can use the sidebar and it will look and behave in the same consistent manner for everyone. This is basic UI stuff, that for some reason isn't happening right now at Apple.



    Agreed.
  • Reply 8 of 19
    ke^inke^in Posts: 98member
    BTW if Apple can get the OS to look and work like iTunes, Windows users that love iTunes will already know how to use the OS, and it will be familiar.



    Does anyone know where I am going here?



    Making the OS look and work like iTunes not only makes sense GUI wise, but business wise as well.
  • Reply 9 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ke^in View Post


    BTW if Apple can get the OS to look and work like iTunes, Windows users that love iTunes will already know how to use the OS, and it will be familiar.



    Does anyone know where I am going here?



    Making the OS look and work like iTunes not only makes sense GUI wise, but business wise as well.



    I agree that the iTunes way of browsing is an excellent feature as it already does one of the hardest things to do - manage a multimedia library.



    However, I do not think that making the whole OS "like iTunes" just for the sake of placating Windows users is a good idea.



    For one, itunes on Windows is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen and many don't like it do to it being slow on Windows and WMP being "prettier."



    Making the finder function the same is great because that is what iTunes does best. It "finds" stuff and manages it very well.



    The iTunes effect should be limited to that.



    That said, I sincerely hope that Apple comes up with a UI theme that really rocks and doesn't cut back on aesthetics just to be "more like iTunes." Apple should create what is best and not worry about a certain group who learns one program and then think "oh, they like iTunes so much because it is so awesome! We should make everything like itunes!" the reality is that most people like the IPOD so much, they love to use iTunes becuase it handles iPod so well. And they like iPod because it was the best hardware with the best UI and it continues that trend today.



    So, Apple should continue making the best hardware and start getting back to making the best UI. The under hood improvements of Leopard are astounding and that is no doubt why Steve Jobs said in a recent interview that Leopard has laid the groundwork for many updates and product launches to come. Now that apple is done with it, they should get back to work on the front end - for no other reason than that is what allows non-engineering types to appreciated the value of the OS.
  • Reply 10 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post


    However, I do not think that making the whole OS "like iTunes" just for the sake of placating Windows users is a good idea.



    Well they have already done it. The new Finder is supposed to work and act like iTunes if you want it to. I don't think they are doing it just for the sake of pacifying Windows users, but that is just a benefit.

    Quote:

    For one, itunes on Windows is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen



    Hmm, the version my old lady has on her XP works and looks JUST LIKE the one I use in OS X. Cept for the Windows buttons on top...

    Quote:

    and many don't like it do to it being slow on Windows and WMP being "prettier."



    iTunes is slow on Windows? Really? Hmm it seemed to run as fast to me. Both me and my better half have about the same hardware as far as speed value goes. I've never heard ANYONE call WMP "prettier" Now WinAmp... there is iTunes's competition. And they have even made WinAmp more iTunes like. But it has so many skins and the GUI is a clusterfudge of a mess.



    I've just had people tell me that if they can make an OS work like the new iTunes does, they would switch. Well now Apple pretty much has. It's a sneaky move on Apple's part. Steve was smart in doing it. Not only does it make sense GUI wise, it makes sense $$ wise.

    Quote:

    That said, I sincerely hope that Apple comes up with a UI theme that really rocks and doesn't cut back on aesthetics just to be "more like iTunes."



    Well I think a GUI should just be a wrapper for the content. It should NEVER take away from the content. Or distract from it. That is what many hated about Aqua. And since then Apple has been toning down the flashiness as far as that goes for that very reason.



    iTunes has a look that many people want. Why? It's attractive, it's modern looking, and it doesn't distract from the content.



    The latter is very important in the design world. Where Apple is King.
  • Reply 11 of 19
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    Thank goodness someone else posted this. I wanted to but people are starting to think I'm anti-Apple or something. But honestly I think their current products, excluding iPod, and iPhone, are totally lacking. Although I loved the Logic update. Hardware, and software, (mostly Mac OS) isn't as impressive as it usually is. The Hardware has been getting worse for over a year, but I never expected the OS update to fall so flat like this. As a Mac user I'm usually really impressed, but it seems kind's ho-hum to me.
  • Reply 12 of 19
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by onlooker View Post


    Thank goodness someone else posted this. I wanted to but people are starting to think I'm anti-Apple or something. But honestly I think their current products, excluding iPod, and iPhone, are totally lacking. Although I loved the Logic update. Hardware, and software, (mostly Mac OS) isn't as impressive as it usually is. The Hardware has been getting worse for over a year, but I never expected the OS update to fall so flat like this. As a Mac user I'm usually really impressed, but it seems kind's ho-hum to me.



    You seem to think that 10.5 is a lot more ho-hum than others in this thread. Are your gripes UI oriented too?



    Hardware is another issue, and yes I would agree that Apple have let things slip a little. There are doubtless many updates in the pipeline.
  • Reply 13 of 19
    ke^inke^in Posts: 98member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by onlooker View Post


    Thank goodness someone else posted this. I wanted to but people are starting to think I'm anti-Apple or something.



    A lot of people that hold a emotional attachment to software take any criticism personal. Be it constructive or destructive. You have to just ignore those types. The "Apple can do no wrong" types are just as bad as the "MS can do no wrong" types.



    For example, you make valid complaints about a lack of a consistent GUI Apple.



    Calling it "Unified" is a oxymoron. The only unified thing about it is the dark windows.



    Apple hasn't had a fully consistent GUI since about 10.1.



    Anyhow, the apologists will always attack you with "It's just GUI complaints.. if you don't like it use Windows, blah blah" these replies and the like add nothing to the discussion. They are what I call verbal masturbation.



    GUI inconsistency complaints are just as valid as any other complaint.



    Apple's history of having a Consistent GUI won them awards. Gave them bragging rights over Windows. Something they don't have right now.



    Sure 10.5 is more consistent than Vista. But that isn't saying much.



    Steve needs to go back and read the HIG. It's been 8 years almost now. There is no reason OS X doesn't have a polished, and consistent GUI that works together like OS 8 did.



    Before the dark times. Before Brushed Metal.

  • Reply 14 of 19
    tony1tony1 Posts: 259member
    I just loaded this last night, so I haven't seen all the inconsistency's that are being discussed (I look for them when I get home, kinda like Easter Eggs). I also haven't got a clue when it comes to programming, but I do know web design and one of the first things I learned there was consistency in operation and design throughout (Isn't it the same in the GUI world?) We'd be graded down if these weren't fully met. So I have to laugh at Apple here. Now granted this is not as simple a task as a web site, but this is also not a one man operation or without oodles of backing. And for the waiting, along with the hype and price most of us paid we should be disappointed.



    I like some of the new features that have come with this release, but don't feel that Apple has fully made the grade here. I give it a B. If the GUI becomes an obstacle in my work flow then I can see the grade going way down.



    Normally I wait until second releases of everything. I broke this rule only twice, Yesterday (Leopard) and 10.0.0 (that I still can't stop kicking myself for) that could NOT be upgraded. Now that was something worth getting peaved about. I guess I was on a wild streak yesterday and taken by the hype.



    Although I have that one small grudge with Apple I'm still loyal and know that these inconsistency's will eventually be worked out.



    Just my 1 1/2 cents
  • Reply 15 of 19
    Raise your hands if you use Interface Builder 3.0 and develop Cocoa Applications?



    Yes the UI is unified.



    No, the unified isn't in reference to Colors of buttons windows or other inconsistent color schemes between Consumer and Pro apps.



    Unified is in reference to the Development Model for Leopard, top to bottom.
  • Reply 16 of 19
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Messiah View Post


    Give the fact that Apple had to pull resources from the development of Leopard in order to complete the development of the iPhone, and the state of the final release of Leopard, do you think that Apple still considers Mac OS to be the Crown Jewels?



    I think it's definitely the crown jewel. But not necessarily 10.5 for the Mac. I think the real crown jewel will be the 'leaner' version that runs the iPhone and will run other hand held devices and perhaps embedded devices like an NAV for cars. I'm really looking forward to what Apple has in store for the NAV in Mercedes.



    Consider this; the Mac installed base is roughly 20 million IIRC. Munster thinks that Apple will sell 45 million iPhones in 2009. The 'leaner' or mobile OSX will have double the installed base of OSX (for Mac) in 2 years if he's correct.
  • Reply 17 of 19
    ke^inke^in Posts: 98member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    Raise your hands if you use Interface Builder 3.0 and develop Cocoa Applications?



    Yes the UI is unified.



    No, the unified isn't in reference to Colors of buttons windows or other inconsistent color schemes between Consumer and Pro apps.



    Unified is in reference to the Development Model for Leopard, top to bottom.



    I know what Unified is in reference to. I was just making a joke.



    They had the Unified look well before 10.5. Having said that, 10.5s GUI isn't CONSISTENT. And wasn't fully finished by the time they had to ship it. Expect changes soon.



    Think of 10.5 as being 10.0. And what will come out will make 10.5 look like 10.0.



    10.5 is just a foundation for something much bigger. For those of you that have dug deep into the system files and its resources know what I am referring to. For those of you that haven't, do so. Interesting stuff in there.



    ArsTech has a great article about it. Don't get used to 10.5s look.
  • Reply 18 of 19
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post


    I do not think that making the whole OS "like iTunes" just for the sake of placating Windows users is a good idea.



    Either do I. I'm betting that before 10.5.4 rolls around that Apple will have resolved these graphical issues.
  • Reply 19 of 19
    Mr. H, you make an excellent point about sidebars. I've subconsciously noticed that (and gotten used to it).



    (BTW, "poof" needs to be abolished. It looked like shit in 10.0, and looks 5 times as much now.)
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