Is all well in the world of Apple Mac?
I admit to being agnostic as far as hardware is concerned. My first Apple Mac experiences were using a Quadra 900 system. I am likely to be purchasing a Mac Pro Audio system once the Nehalem generation motherboards, chipsets and processors are introduced.
Here I take issue with the Apple Mac zealots who seem blinded to some recent Apple decisions and marketing claims which suggest a worrying form over function / cost cutting rather than premium quality trend.
On Macbooks and iMacs the TI firewire chipset was replaced by a cheaper Agere chipset, which is significantly less compatible with audio interfaces.
"The issue is caused by the Agere chipset that apple has decided to start shipping with the new Macbook Pro's and iMac's made as of October of 2007. These chipsets have been giving interface companies a major headache.
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Tech Support
PreSonus Audio Electronics"
?They are ruining their audio market... they are already pushing some people away from video applications with their lack of support for high-end graphics cards.. now this? Bad firewire on low end macs.. graphics difficulties on the high ones.. I'm a little disappointed apple. I've always gotten the extra mile from them, I guess I?ve come to expect it!?
?Did you say an Apogee interface? Isn't that supposed to be the flagship interface that they are trying to get all their logic users to buy with logic pro? [Apogee?s Ensemble and Symphony systems] They could have checked with their partner company before dropping Apogee support for 2/3 of their computers... us Mac pro users are lucky...?
?Planning to get a new Macbook, I just read the forums of premium interface manufacturer RME (rme-audio.com) and was shocked about these news. This definitely is a huge issue: RME has declared the new Mac laptops incompatible until further notice. It would be nice to hear some official statement about this from apple or the chip manufacturer. And a way to identify the machines with the faulty chips.?
Purchasing an integrated system from an audio specialist should alleviate such compatibility issues but the move to an Agere chipset is hardly a PREMIUM QUALITY decision.
Macbooks currently have documented issues with poor quality screens and previously had excessive heat generation issues. The iMac screens are poor imitations compared to the separate Cinema monitors.
Macworld and others question whether the Time Capsule?s hard drive is really ?Server Grade?, as Apple claims?
Inside the Time Capsule is an Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 7,200 rpm hard drive ?. most experts agree that the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 is desktop rather than server i.e. enterprise quality.
Goggle install a vast range of different drives in their server arrays: from true enterprise drives with 1000000 hrs Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) ratings (for which one pays a significant premium) to typical high quality desktop drives such as the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000. However, one does not become the other simply through usage. Apple install the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 in their Xserve units.
Microsoft have their Vista, Sony have their burning batteries but are Apple playing the premium quality ace whilst hiding a cut-price joker by sleight of hand?
Here I take issue with the Apple Mac zealots who seem blinded to some recent Apple decisions and marketing claims which suggest a worrying form over function / cost cutting rather than premium quality trend.
On Macbooks and iMacs the TI firewire chipset was replaced by a cheaper Agere chipset, which is significantly less compatible with audio interfaces.
"The issue is caused by the Agere chipset that apple has decided to start shipping with the new Macbook Pro's and iMac's made as of October of 2007. These chipsets have been giving interface companies a major headache.
__________________
Tech Support
PreSonus Audio Electronics"
?They are ruining their audio market... they are already pushing some people away from video applications with their lack of support for high-end graphics cards.. now this? Bad firewire on low end macs.. graphics difficulties on the high ones.. I'm a little disappointed apple. I've always gotten the extra mile from them, I guess I?ve come to expect it!?
?Did you say an Apogee interface? Isn't that supposed to be the flagship interface that they are trying to get all their logic users to buy with logic pro? [Apogee?s Ensemble and Symphony systems] They could have checked with their partner company before dropping Apogee support for 2/3 of their computers... us Mac pro users are lucky...?
?Planning to get a new Macbook, I just read the forums of premium interface manufacturer RME (rme-audio.com) and was shocked about these news. This definitely is a huge issue: RME has declared the new Mac laptops incompatible until further notice. It would be nice to hear some official statement about this from apple or the chip manufacturer. And a way to identify the machines with the faulty chips.?
Purchasing an integrated system from an audio specialist should alleviate such compatibility issues but the move to an Agere chipset is hardly a PREMIUM QUALITY decision.
Macbooks currently have documented issues with poor quality screens and previously had excessive heat generation issues. The iMac screens are poor imitations compared to the separate Cinema monitors.
Macworld and others question whether the Time Capsule?s hard drive is really ?Server Grade?, as Apple claims?
Inside the Time Capsule is an Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 7,200 rpm hard drive ?. most experts agree that the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 is desktop rather than server i.e. enterprise quality.
Goggle install a vast range of different drives in their server arrays: from true enterprise drives with 1000000 hrs Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) ratings (for which one pays a significant premium) to typical high quality desktop drives such as the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000. However, one does not become the other simply through usage. Apple install the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 in their Xserve units.
Microsoft have their Vista, Sony have their burning batteries but are Apple playing the premium quality ace whilst hiding a cut-price joker by sleight of hand?
Comments
On Macbooks and iMacs the TI firewire chipset was replaced by a cheaper Agere chipset, which is significantly less compatible with audio interfaces.
"The issue is caused by the Agere chipset that apple has decided to start shipping with the new Macbook Pro's and iMac's made as of October of 2007. These chipsets have been giving interface companies a major headache.
Assuming that "cheaper" is tantamount to lower quality is a logical fallacy. In this situation who's really to blame? If the Agere chipset is correct to Firewire Spec then the blame would seem to be with developers of FW audio gear or the inverse. I guess time will tell though I admit to be interested in these results as I'm likely to purchase a Macbook and an Apogee Duet audio I/O.
Macbooks currently have documented issues with poor quality screens and previously had excessive heat generation issues. The iMac screens are poor imitations compared to the separate Cinema monitors.
It's nigh impossible to ship milions of laptops per quarter and not have "documented" cases of issues. We don't even know if Apple is sourcing screens from multiple vendors for one product line.
Inside the Time Capsule is an Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 7,200 rpm hard drive ?. most experts agree that the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 is desktop rather than server i.e. enterprise quality.
I config HP servers everyday that use 72k SATA drives for Enterprise applications. According to Apple's definition of Enterprise and MTBF numbers they are within their rights to call the drive an Enterprise drive. Hell there are Enterprise companies using standard SATA laptop drives in products http://storagemojo.com/2008/03/28/at...y-goes-public/
Equating Enterprise with 10k or 15k drives is marketing drivel.
Goggle install a vast range of different drives in their server arrays: from true enterprise drives with 1000000 hrs Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) ratings (for which one pays a significant premium) to typical high quality desktop drives such as the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000. However, one does not become the other simply through usage. Apple install the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 in their Xserve units.
Enterprise is clearly subjective and based on your own whims. If I have a product that can deliver Five 9s of reliability that product is Enterprise to me from at least a reliability standpoint. Each person is free to define Enterprise however they wish.
So I guess the answer is Apple is doing fine though with some caveats. The Agere chipset issue must be dealt with and I don't know if that's a driver issue or what. But problems clearly exist.
HM
Assuming that "cheaper" is tantamount to lower quality is a logical fallacy. In this situation who's really to blame? If the Agere chipset is correct to Firewire Spec then the blame would seem to be with developers of FW audio gear or the inverse. I guess time will tell though I admit to be interested in these results as I'm likely to purchase a Macbook and an Apogee Duet audio I/O. HM
Formal Logic has nothing to do with the realities of manufacturing. A premium quality manufacturer would test the proposed changed chipset for compatibility with all the products that are likely to be connected; particularly pro-audio interfaces as used by Logic Pro (Mac only and produced by Apple) users. The only time cost savings are achievable without a loss of quality is due to a reduction in component costs due to fabrication improvements or streamlining for example Intel chips or AD/DA converters.
It's nigh impossible to ship milions of laptops per quarter and not have "documented" cases of issues. We don't even know if Apple is sourcing screens from multiple vendors for one product line. HM
Actually they use three suppliers two of which have issues. Try reading around before spouting!
I config HP servers everyday that use 72k SATA drives for Enterprise applications. According to Apple's definition of Enterprise and MTBF numbers they are within their rights to call the drive an Enterprise drive. Hell there are Enterprise companies using standard SATA laptop drives in products http://storagemojo.com/2008/03/28/at...y-goes-public/
Equating Enterprise with 10k or 15k drives is marketing drivel. HM
I did not mention 10K or 15K drives. Enterprise hard drives have significantly greater Mean Time Between Failure ratings than desktop hard drives, typically 1000000 hrs for enterprise class drives. The Seagate Barracuda 7200.10.ES carries a 5 year warranty. Hitachi E7K500 a mean 3 year warranty. Western Digital Enterprise WD RE2 a five year warranty. Western Digital Marketing spiel "With 1.2 million hours MTBF, 3 Gb/s SATA technology and best-in-class vibration tolerance, these drives offer the best combination of reliability, high capacity and performance for enterprise applications."
However check Google tech paper "Failure Trends in a Large Disk Drive Population" to see that disk failure generally in first 6 months of use ~ 8% or much later yrs 1-5 ~ 2 - 3%.
I mentioned the speed purely as part of the spec. I focused on the MTBF which differ between enterprise and desktop models. I am currently building a PC into which I will be installing Samsung Spinpoint F1 desktop hard drives. However for my external back-up I will be investing in a GTech Sonnet or Wiebetech portable RAID array with enterprise hard drives fitted into hot swappable caddies.
To offer an analogy using an SUV as a truck does not make it a truck. But some smaller US open back trucks are styled as SUVs.
Enterprise is clearly subjective and based on your own whims. If I have a product that can deliver Five 9s of reliability that product is Enterprise to me from at least a reliability standpoint. Each person is free to define Enterprise however they wish. HM
Not really! Strange as there is consensus within the industry regarding what constitutes enterprise grade. The Hitachi E7K500 is Hitachi's 7200rpm enterprise model.
So I guess the answer is Apple is doing fine though with some caveats. The Agere chipset issue must be dealt with and I don't know if that's a driver issue or what. But problems clearly exist. HM
You move from labouring about the semantics of formal Logic to Wittgenstein's rejection of logicism and formalism - to know what a word means is simply to be able to use it properly even if we are unable to precisely define it, we recognise certain central instances ... as in the Hitachi E7K500.
I don't think audio professionals are Apple's target audience for Macbooks and iMacs, they want you to spend more money.
Macbooks have documented issues? How many millions of them has Apple sold? You couldn't do better.
The iMac using TN screens is simple cost-cutting on Apple's part, but I seriously doubt anyone outside of Apple forum sites cares. Or even knows about it.
And as for the hard drives, enterprise drives aren't any more reliable than consumer drives. They are made out of the same parts. They come off the same assembly line. The hardware is identical, and the firmware optimizations enterprise drives get will do nothing in an external enclosure like Time Capsule.
Look, Apple does quite a few things that bother me and I'm certainly not going to blindly defend the company, but these things you're worrying about are just stupid.
Formal Logic has nothing to do with the realities of manufacturing. A premium quality manufacturer would test the proposed changed chipset for compatibility with all the products that are likely to be connected; particularly pro-audio interfaces as used by Logic Pro (Mac only and produced by Apple) users. The only time cost savings are achievable without a loss of quality is due to a reduction in component costs due to fabrication improvements or streamlining for example Intel chips or AD/DA converters.
Yes I'm sure they had the time to do a plug-fest with hundreds if not thousands of Firewire products. You still really haven't answered the crux of this issue. Is the Agere chip operating inside or outside the parameters of the IEEE 1394x specification? You seem to postulate that this is an Apple issue but until you have proven sufficient data that points to Apple choosing a non-compliant part it seems a bit assumptive of you to blame Apple.
Actually they use three suppliers two of which have issues. Try reading around before spouting!
I don't take orders from you noob. If you wish to gain any credibility here then realize the burden of proof is with you as you posit that somehow something is wrong with Apple.
I did not mention 10K or 15K drives. Enterprise hard drives have significantly greater Mean Time Between Failure ratings than desktop hard drives .....
Understood but there is no standardard definition of Enterprise Hard Drive. While I personally don't agree with Apple stating the Time Capsule Hard Drive is Enterprise class there are a plethora of Enterprise products that do in fact use that level of drive so who am I to say their definition is invalid?
Not really! Strange as there is consensus within the industry regarding what constitutes enterprise grade. The Hitachi E7K500 is Hitachi's 7200rpm enterprise model.
I don't care about the consensus. If I can deliver Five 9's of reliability to my clients I don't really care what technology is used. The rest is just for the marketers.
[QUOTESeveBC]You move from labouring about the semantics of formal Logic to Wittgenstein's rejection of logicism and formalism - to know what a word means is simply to be able to use it properly even if we are unable to precisely define it, we recognise certain central instances ... as in the Hitachi E7K500[/QUOTE]
Perhaps. Humans are fairly adept at learning through context but I've learned from living with a Lawyer that everything is open to debate.
I will say however that Apple has had some embarassing gaffes involving FW (The FW write bug in older PowerMacs and now the Agere) For a company so involved in the creation and evolution of Firewire Apple needs to stop cutting corners.
The Mac Pros & MacBook Pros are more expensive for a reason ? they are the machines designed for professionals. You are only kidding yourself if you expect the cheaper, consumer designed computers to match their performance.
Of course a Cinema Display beats an iMac's display.
The MacBook still have crummy displays and brittle plastic cases that are still giving people trouble, but at least they too finally run nice and cool with the Penryn update. I expect both the display and the case quality to be dealt with before the end of the year; they'll get the MacBook Air's display, and they'll get some kind of metal for the case now that Apple has finally given up faith in plastic CPU cases. There's nothing seriously wrong with the design of the MacBook case; just the quality of the material.
And then you have the usual OS update bugs. There are still a few of them to be worked out of Leopard, especially on graphics.
And then you have the usual OS update bugs. There are still a few of them to be worked out of Leopard, especially on graphics.
If you want to to see different answers to the same question, ask if Nikon Capture NX runs well on Leopard. The answers are consistently inconsistent.
Yes I'm sure they had the time to do a plug-fest with hundreds if not thousands of Firewire products. You still really haven't answered the crux of this issue. Is the Agere chip operating inside or outside the parameters of the IEEE 1394x specification? You seem to postulate that this is an Apple issue but until you have proven sufficient data that points to Apple choosing a non-compliant part it seems a bit assumptive of you to blame Apple.
apple moved from pci based firewire to pci-e based firewire so there may of better some pci-e bus issue that will likely be fixed in newer chips.