Sitting on the fence
I'm currently a windows user looking for a new system. I'm seriously considering a powermac G4. I've never owned a mac so I have alot of questions. Most of my time would be spent (or wasted) playing online games and searching the net. Here are some questions:
1. Will my jpegs be recognized by os x or will I need a third party product?
2. What is carbon and cocoa?
3. Is it safe to assume that any monitor with a vga connection will be recognized by os x?
4. Is there a decent newsreader supplied with os x? I've been using newsrover for years.
5. Does apple bundle os x with alot of other third party products on new macs? I only want os x and whatever is absolutely needed for it to function...not any useless software to clutter my disk space or leave my registry in a mess when deleted.
6. How much memory and space does os x require?
7. Finally, is the os x disc boxed with each shipment? I'd like to know I could reinstall the whole os if I wanted to.
Well thats it for now. There are many questions because I plan to buy something very soon..within the month. If new powermacs are revealed during macworld I may wait longer to decide. Any info will be appreciated. Thanx
1. Will my jpegs be recognized by os x or will I need a third party product?
2. What is carbon and cocoa?
3. Is it safe to assume that any monitor with a vga connection will be recognized by os x?
4. Is there a decent newsreader supplied with os x? I've been using newsrover for years.
5. Does apple bundle os x with alot of other third party products on new macs? I only want os x and whatever is absolutely needed for it to function...not any useless software to clutter my disk space or leave my registry in a mess when deleted.
6. How much memory and space does os x require?
7. Finally, is the os x disc boxed with each shipment? I'd like to know I could reinstall the whole os if I wanted to.
Well thats it for now. There are many questions because I plan to buy something very soon..within the month. If new powermacs are revealed during macworld I may wait longer to decide. Any info will be appreciated. Thanx
Comments
<strong>I'm currently a windows user looking for a new system. I'm seriously considering a powermac G4. I've never owned a mac so I have alot of questions. Most of my time would be spent (or wasted) playing online games and searching the net. Here are some questions:
1. Will my jpegs be recognized by os x or will I need a third party product?
2. What is carbon and cocoa?
3. Is it safe to assume that any monitor with a vga connection will be recognized by os x?
4. Is there a decent newsreader supplied with os x? I've been using newsrover for years.
5. Does apple bundle os x with alot of other third party products on new macs? I only want os x and whatever is absolutely needed for it to function...not any useless software to clutter my disk space or leave my registry in a mess when deleted.
6. How much memory and space does os x require?
7. Finally, is the os x disc boxed with each shipment? I'd like to know I could reinstall the whole os if I wanted to.
Well thats it for now. There are many questions because I plan to buy something very soon..within the month. If new powermacs are revealed during macworld I may wait longer to decide. Any info will be appreciated. Thanx</strong><hr></blockquote>
ack...I think I should have posted this topic in the software forum...
Jpegs are no problem. You have iPhoto, Preview, Internet Explorer, etc. that come with OS X and see jpegs just fine. Graphics files are no sweat.
2. What is carbon and cocoa?
They're both ways to program applications, APIs (application programming interfaces). They come from different sources so Apple is busy making sure that the applications written with either method look and act the same to the end user (that's you
3. Is it safe to assume that any monitor with a vga connection will be recognized by os x?
Probably, but make sure the computer has a VGA port or an adapter. Apple uses DVI ports (digital video interface) in their PowerMacs.
4. Is there a decent newsreader supplied with os x? I've been using newsrover for years.
No idea. I haven't used one in years. Try searching <a href="http://www.versiontracker.com/macosx/"; target="_blank">Version Tracker</a>.
5. Does apple bundle os x with alot of other third party products on new macs? I only want os x and whatever is absolutely needed for it to function...not any useless software to clutter my disk space or leave my registry in a mess when deleted.
Apple supplies a fair number of third party applications in consumer Macs and pro Macs. They're pretty good aps, and there's no registry to worry about in Mac OS X. If you don't want an app, just throw it in the trash and delete it. No fuss, no muss.
6. How much memory and space does os x require?
I'm not sure, and it depends on how you measure. Apple has a lot of applications anf goodies on a system, so the installed OS is fairly big (1 GB+?) but the base system is much smaller.
7. Finally, is the os x disc boxed with each shipment? I'd like to know I could reinstall the whole os if I wanted to.
You get the Install CD, a restore CD, an emergency CD, application CDs, lots of CDs.
Macs are a bit short on gaming titles. You might want to see if the kinds of games you're looking for are out for Macs, and if there's a significant delay between the PC and Mac versions coming out. The really big games generally come to the Mac, but a lot don't.
Also, it would be a good idea to see what happens next week in terms of new computers. You can either be wowed into getting the latest and greatest, or you can get a recent model (suddenly "obsolete") at a fair discount.
Now, let's get to work on your questions...
[quote]1. Will my jpegs be recognized by os x or will I need a third party product?<hr></blockquote>Apple's default image viewer "Preview" will open these JPEGs just fine.
[quote]2. What is carbon and cocoa?<hr></blockquote>In short, they are developer terms that the end user *should* not have to know. There have been many battles about which is better, but Ill keep this brief. Carbon is an API for programmers to do a "quick port" of older, existing Mac software. Also, Carbon is aimed at C++ and procedural programmers for new apps. Carbon apps to not automatically subscribe to all the new OSX features; many of them must be added by the programmer. Cocoa apps, however, give many of the new features "for free" to the programmer. Cocoa is an API for Objective C and is more object-oriented in nature. The "freebies" mean that you can write a basic word processor in under a dozen lines of code and it'll automatically inherit numerous OSX features.
[quote]3. Is it safe to assume that any monitor with a vga connection will be recognized by os x? <hr></blockquote>Yes, just about any VGA monitor will work. [quote]4. Is there a decent newsreader supplied with os x?<hr></blockquote>No, there is no default news reader. There are many available, though. I prefer one by the name MT-NewsWatcher.
[quote]5. Does apple bundle os x with alot of other third party products on new macs? I only want os x and whatever is absolutely needed for it to function...not any useless software to clutter my disk space or leave my registry in a mess when deleted.<hr></blockquote>First off, yes, Apple includes some software with their computers. You can see a list at apple.com of what is included with the iMacs and PowerMacs.
Second, there is nothing like that horrid registry in OSX. An app is just *there*. That's it. You want to delete it? Simple: drag it to the trash. It's gone! There are no tendrils left hanging that might bug with your system like there may have been with Windows.
[quote]6. How much memory and space does os x require?<hr></blockquote>On my Mac, the system folder itself weighs in at 899 MB. Of course, this will vary depending on how many localizations you have.
[quote]7. Finally, is the os x disc boxed with each shipment? I'd like to know I could reinstall the whole os if I wanted to.<hr></blockquote>The OSX install disc is included if you want to install only the OS. Also, there should be a set of "Software Restore" discs that will restore all the software that originally shipped with your Mac.
Feel free to post any other questions!
These were too easy.
[ 07-08-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
anyway, as for your questions.
1. .jpeg's are no problem. never have been and never will be. a boat load of apps recognize .jpegs on macs, and the OS will open them itself if you have nothing else.
2. something to do with how apps. are written. don't think it really matters to the end user, but i'll let someone with a deeper background in the area take that one.
3. yes. i have yet to come across a monitor that had problems, although i guess there could be some.
4. a quick check on <a href="http://www.versiontracker.com"; target="_blank">www.versiontracker.com</a> yeilded <a href="http://www.versiontracker.com/mp/new_search.m?productDB=mac&mode=Quick&OS_Filter=Ma cOSX&search=news+group" target="_blank">these</a> results. that's at least 11 native apps. to choose from. of those, 4 are freeware, and 2 are beta versions. others are shareware.
5. if you're asking if a bunch of crap loads up when you get it, or if there are a ton of apps. on it when you buy it, not really. maybe a few games, might have appleworks, that kind of thing. nothing like a Compaq or Dell that launches 20 things in the background that suck up CPU cycles.
also, software as you know it does not have the same problems. no registry so no clutter. if you remove stuff it's actually gone. drive doesn't get anywhere near as fragmented.
6. money: you get an OSX cd with your computer, so it's sorta free. space wise i think it's at about a Gig at this point, i could be wrong. i haven't had to reinstall OSX since the first install, so i don't remember anymore how much space it took up.
7. as mentioned about, you get the CD with the machine. the cd has no key code either, so you don't have to worry about keeping track of all that proof crap. if you've got the cd, you're good to go.
hope this helps, anything else feel free to ask.
-alcimedes
at least we all have basically the same answers. lol.
<strong>I'm currently a windows user looking for a new system. I'm seriously considering a powermac G4. I've never owned a mac so I have alot of questions. Most of my time would be spent (or wasted) playing online games and searching the net. Here are some questions:
1. Will my jpegs be recognized by os x or will I need a third party product?
2. What is carbon and cocoa?
3. Is it safe to assume that any monitor with a vga connection will be recognized by os x?
4. Is there a decent newsreader supplied with os x? I've been using newsrover for years.
5. Does apple bundle os x with alot of other third party products on new macs? I only want os x and whatever is absolutely needed for it to function...not any useless software to clutter my disk space or leave my registry in a mess when deleted.
6. How much memory and space does os x require?
7. Finally, is the os x disc boxed with each shipment? I'd like to know I could reinstall the whole os if I wanted to.
Well thats it for now. There are many questions because I plan to buy something very soon..within the month. If new powermacs are revealed during macworld I may wait longer to decide. Any info will be appreciated. Thanx</strong><hr></blockquote>
Someone will probably beat me to this, but - Here goes:
I think you'll be happy with almost all of the answers...
Q: 1. Will my jpegs be recognized by OSX or will I need a third party product?
A: Most definitely - No 3rd-Party software required.
Q: 2. What is carbon and cocoa?
A: There are MANY more qualified to speak on that topic... but overall... it should make no difference to the user. Technically, they are both environments to develop OSX applications... both have advantages & disadvantages... but not worth (IMHO) getting too deep into the difference.
Q: 3. Is it safe to assume that any monitor with a vga connection will be recognized by os x?
A: Yes. Your video card on the Mac will support any standard display connected to it.
Q: 4. Is there a decent newsreader supplied with os x? I've been using newsrover for years.
A: Supplied with it...? Currently, no. Not sure if the next release of OSX might have one built-in... but there are some freeware & shareware apps available. Not to worry.
Q: 5. Does apple bundle os x with alot of other third party products on new macs? I only want os x and whatever is absolutely needed for it to function...not any useless software to clutter my disk space or leave my registry in a mess when deleted.
A: There are "some" apps... but not to worry. If you want to get rid of an application... you just delete it. No register worries at all. You can move apps where you want to (for the most part) and they don't "flip-out" like on some WinOS flavors.
Q: 6. How much memory and space does os x require?
A: Well... Try to get at LEAST 256-512MB of RAM... but the more, the merrier.
7. Finally, is the os x disc boxed with each shipment? I'd like to know I could reinstall the whole os if I wanted to.
A: Most definitely.
First off, I should warn you that if you plan to use your computer as a gaming machine, you might as well stick to Wintel or get a console. There just aren't that many games for Mac, especially not so popular ones, and they usually come out way after the PC version is released, if at all.
But, if you're still interested, a few good Mac games sites are <a href="http://www.insidemacgames.com"; target="_blank">Inside Mac Games</a>, <a href="http://www.macgamer.com"; target="_blank">Mac Gamer</a>, and <a href="http://www.macgamefiles.com"; target="_blank">Mac Game Files</a>.
Now for your questions:
1) You're JPEGS will work fine in OS X.
2) Carbon and Cocoa are names for the different types of programs in OS X. Carbon is what they call apps that have been converted from Classic Mac OS (9) to run natively in OS X. Cocoa is the name of apps that have been written from scratch to run natively in OS X. Cocoa apps in general are more X-savvy (use toolbars, sheets, more stable, etc.)
3) I'm pretty sure any monitor will work fine in OS X. I have a ViewSonic 17" with a VGA connector plugged into an ATI rage orion. It works.
4) There are many newsreader apps for OS X. The best place to find them (as well as all other software) is to go to <a href="http://www.versiontracker.com"; target="_blank">VersionTracker</a>.
I personally use Halime, a Cocoa app (meaning it was written from the ground up to run natively in OS X). It's still early in development, and somewhat buggy, but I love the interface, and updates are frequent. Some other popular Carbon apps I know of are Thoth and MT Newswatcher.
5) I've always thought one of the beauties of Macs, especially in OS X, is the lack of commercial crap that clutters up your OS. I've setup PC's before, and I know very well all the deals, ads, and promotions that coerce you into signing up for something just to get your PC up and running. It's not like that on the Mac. Most of the software on your new computer will be Apple's own, and Apple has a unique way of making software just get out of your way and let your work.
6) OS X is a memory hog. 128MB is the bare minimum amount of RAM, but you'll definitely want more, at least 256MB. As for disk space, I run OS X and OS 9 on a 4 GB hard drive with 2 partitions, along with many apps. I still have 100s of MB free.
7) Yes, the full OS X install disk comes with every Mac.
I hope those answer your questions. Definitely plan on a Power Mac update this Macworld.
[Edit: removed the whole false carbon crashing stuff]
[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: eVo ]</p>
I related this story to give you a better idea of why I?m curious. If you like to try new things, have some patience to learn how to use your new Macintosh and don?t suffer from buyer?s remorse, then you should strongly consider getting a Mac. They are fun to use. I have one. I also have a PC. I tend to use my Mac for surfing and listening to music with iTunes. I tend to use my PC to for logging into work. (For some reason, my Cisco VPN client is more stable on my PC.) I know I didn?t really address your questions, but I?m sure the regulars here can provide some good responses.
<strong>Also, If a Carbon app crashes, it will bring down all other open Carbon apps, because classic Mac OS didn't have memory protection. A crashing Cocoa app will not effect any other app though.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Excellent post, eVo, but this was a pretty big slip.
Both Cocoa and Carbon applications benefit from Mac OS X's memory protection.
You were probably thinking of programs running in the Classic environment. If one of these crashes, it might take down all other running Classic applications. (Still beats OS 9, though!)
[ 07-08-2002: Message edited by: Daver ]</p>
1. Will my jpegs be recognized by os x or will I need a third party product?
Every application in OS X will have no trouble recognizing all the standard graphics formats, including JPG and PNG.
2. What is carbon and cocoa?
They're two ways to write programs for OS X.
3. Is it safe to assume that any monitor with a vga connection will be recognized by os x?
Yes.
4. Is there a decent newsreader supplied with os x? I've been using newsrover for years.
Supplied with? No, but you can d/l Thoth or (my preferred newsreader) MT Newswatcher.
5. Does apple bundle os x with alot of other third party products on new macs? I only want os x and whatever is absolutely needed for it to function...not any useless software to clutter my disk space or leave my registry in a mess when deleted.
There is no registry in OS X, so installing applications does not pollute anything, and uninstalling them is mostly a matter of dragging the application to the Trash (the biggest exception, as you might guess, is Microsoft). This is true for all of the apps that Apple bundles on their machines.
That said, pro machines come with far fewer apps than the consumer machines do. But Apple doesn't do stripped-down systems. They want you to be able to pull a machine out of the box, plug it in, and start using it.
6. How much memory and space does os x require?
Require? 128MB and a few GB. You really want 512MB RAM or more. OS X will consume 700MB or so, and you want about 1GB free for swap space.
7. Finally, is the os x disc boxed with each shipment? I'd like to know I could reinstall the whole os if I wanted to.
Yes. There will be CDs to do a full system restore if you want. Also, on Macs it's possible to do a system reinstall without reformatting the HD. So if your system gets confused somehow you can restore it without having to reinstall all your apps and restore your documents from backup.
I need hardly say that you should still back up your files regularly.
Also, disk optimization is much less of an issue with OS X. It essentially is always doing a certain amount of housekeeping, so you don't have to. Diskwarrior and Tech Tool Pro are both excellent system maintenance utilities.
Well thats it for now. There are many questions because I plan to buy something very soon..within the month. If new powermacs are revealed during macworld I may wait longer to decide. Any info will be appreciated. Thanx
Give the portables a good look. You might be pleasantly surprised. They're the strongest overall machines in Apple's lineup right now, if you ask me.
<strong>
Excellent post, eVo, but this was a pretty big slip.
Both Carbon and Cocoa applications benefit from Mac OS X's full memory protection, not just those written in Cocoa.
You were probably thinking of programs running in the Classic environment: of one of those crashes, it can take down all other running Classic applications. (Just like OS 9, only your whole system won't die.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Huh, I thought I was right there... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I guess I've never really witnessed it, but I could have sworn Apple said that a crashing Carbon app would bring down other Carbon apps in OS X. I guess I was hallucinating all this time.
<strong>Huh, I thought I was right there... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I guess I've never really witnessed it, but I could have sworn Apple said that a crashing Carbon app would bring down other Carbon apps in OS X. I guess I was hallucinating all this time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It certainly shouldn't happen now, but I can see it happening a year ago when a lot of Carbon apps were half-baked ports from OS 9.
Pay none of this any attention, Spirit.
<strong>
Huh, I thought I was right there... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I guess I've never really witnessed it, but I could have sworn Apple said that a crashing Carbon app would bring down other Carbon apps in OS X. I guess I was hallucinating all this time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Close, but no Cigar.
CLASSIC apps that crash will bring down OTHER Classic apps... or even all of Classic... but then again... who uses Classic anymore...?
Seriously though... any app that crashes (very rare) in OSX will not affect other applications or the OS.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eVo:
<strong>2) Carbon and Cocoa are names for the different types of programs in OS X. Carbon is what they call apps that have been converted from Classic Mac OS (9) to run natively in OS X. Cocoa is the name of apps that have been written from scratch to run natively in OS X. Cocoa apps in general are more X-savvy (use toolbars, sheets, more stable, etc.)</strong><hr></blockquote>Daver already touched on the correction about Carbon apps crashing, but I feel I should correct and clarify some more from this post.
Although Carbon was originally intended just as a temporary solution for porting software, it has grown and is perfectly viable as a solution for new, Mac OS X-only software. Carbon apps can be written from scratch for X just as well as Cocoa. Ambrosia Software's Snapz Pro X and Escape Velocity: Nova are two shining examples. Snapz is a screen-capture utility that you can make movies of the screen with. I have beta tested it since before it was beta and not once has it crashed on me. It is rock solid. Plus, the interface looks great and it properly manages memory and cpu cycles like a good, native OSX app should. Escape Velocity is a game that, in my experience, performs better in Mac OS X than the older Mac OS 9. It too behaves like any other OSX app should.
Furthermore, some software may actually be built part in Cocoa and part in Carbon. OmniWeb, for example, is touted as a poster-child of Cocoa development. It's a gorgeous app that adheres strongly to Apple's interface guidelines and takes advantage of many OSX-only features. What people forget, though, is that there is some Carbon code in it. QuickTime, Flash, and other plug-ins are Carbon-based; yet, they work fine with OmniWeb.
I must stress, though, that you should by no means judge an app based on whether it was built in Carbon or Cocoa. Yes, you can make a flaky, buggy, slow app in Carbon BUT you can also make a flaky, buggy, slow app in Cocoa as well. The reason people tend to have a stigma against Carbon is because there have been a great number of shabby Carbon programs released, giving Carbon a bad name. Apple's own apps have given people a bad impression of Carbon. The Finder, Mac OS X's main app, has proved very buggy and painfully slow in some functions. Yet, it is vastly improved over what it was back in the Mac OS X Public Beta. It is still improving and new functionality is being added to it for the upcoming 10.2.
So, in short, what do you need to know about Carbon and Cocoa? Nothing. They are developer terms only. Cocoa is meant for object oriented programmers. Cocoa is meant for more procedural programmers. That's all.
<strong>I'm pleasantly suprised by the number of quick responses and appreciate the help.</strong><hr></blockquote>That's one of the pluses of owning a Mac, I suppose. Outsiders often misconstrue our enthusiasm as a "cultish" behavior, but we rather see it simply as a community of users who want the best experience for everybody.
[quote]<strong>The only thing I'm afraid I'll miss are the games.</strong><hr></blockquote>Yeah, I'll easily admit that the Mac lacks the bajillions of software titles that Windows has. However, if would seem that games, like all Mac software, have been more carefully written to behave nicely and work well. If you want a list of some of the games available for Mac OS X, take a look at <a href="http://www.apple.com/games/macosx/"; target="_blank">Apple's Game Section</a>.
[quote]<strong>I'll keep you all or "yaw" as we say it here in N.C. informed. I have more questions to post in the current hardware forum.</strong><hr></blockquote>Heh. Nice to meet another North Carolinian online. I'm proud to say that I live in the Krisky Kreme capitol of the world: Winston-Salem, NC.
[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
If games are your thing, I'm afraid you're bound to be disappointed by the Mac. Otherwise, it's a fantastic platform. The funny thing is that I used to play games a lot prior to switching to the Mac (in 1991). After that, I found much better things to do with my computer.
na
By the way if you are going to buy a Mac wait until after MWNY at the end of this month,a lot of new products and upgrades will be released,as well as the first fully mature version of OSX,known as Jaguar.
<strong>Heh. Nice to meet another North Carolinian online. I'm proud to say that I live in the Krisky Kreme capitol of the world: Winston-Salem, NC.
Figures. Only an NC State fan would call them 'Krisky Kremes'...
(Greetings from UNC!
But what's this 'yaw' crud? Heck, I wasn't even born here, and I know it's 'y'all'... 'yaw' sounds like a Georgian mushmouth.
[ 07-10-2002: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
[quote]Cocoa is a more powerful and simpler API than Carbon,generally better programmers will use Cocoa because programs can be written quickly.<hr></blockquote>
This statement disqualifies you as utterly uninformed. "Better programmers" choose the means according to their goals.
If you are used to program in C++, it is unlikely you are going to switch to Cocoa, since you have to deal with a different language. Furthermore, if you want to calculate the complexity of your code to chose which algorith to use, you will much more likely use C/C++ instead of obj-C because of the automatic object allocators/deallocators and the unpredictable garbage collection.
Using C++, you can easily tap into a large reservoir of well-tested code ported from other platforms. It is not impossible to use it in conjunction with Cocoa, but Carbon is a much more natural choice for C++.
It is easier to develop user interfaces with Cocoa, but this does not mean, that developing whole apps is necessarily easier - frameworks for C++ exist.