HyperCard 3.0 for OS X

Posted:
in macOS edited January 2014
Don't you think Apple could or should release an updated and native release of HyperCard to OS X.? There has been some talk of who Apple should target for this product and who would buy it. My answer, is don't sell it, integrated into the OS like itunes, imovie etc. HyperCard was such as great tool, you had anyone from children to pros creating Apps in no time.



Do you think this would work? Please discuss...

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 18
    thuh freakthuh freak Posts: 2,664member
    without any doubt in my mind it would definitely fail. hypercard was killed like 10 years ago. apple doesn't want to bring it back. it was a pos, it is a pos, and making it osx native won't make is not a pos. there are probably only like 2 people who still use it (if that many).
  • Reply 2 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Boo hiss.



    HC was one of the most advanced programming systems of the day, and it *still* offers a simpler programming model than most anything out there.



    HC ranks up there with the full Smalltalk system from Xerox PARC as one of the more seminal advances in programmatic methodology breakthroughs. It is still one of the classic citations in software engineering literature.



    I don't believe that it will be resurrected, now that we have a more thorough system in the incorporation of AppleScript as a first class programming language, and AppleScript Studio as a simplified Interface Builder system, much like HC was, but that doesn't mean that HC wasn't incredible.



    Heck, it still is.
  • Reply 3 of 18
    murkmurk Posts: 935member
    Check this link.<a href="http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,54365,00.html"; target="_blank">Wired Hypercard Story</a>
  • Reply 4 of 18
    hypercard was awesome. iHypercard.!!
  • Reply 5 of 18
    Strange. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> It would seem AI's UBB just ate this long post I made praising HyperCard.



    Oh well, I just was saying that I agree with Kickaha and that I'd dance with glee if a modern version of HyperCard would be released for Mac OS X.
  • Reply 6 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Is this thing on? *thump thump*



    AppleScript Studio is, for all intents and purposes, the successor to HyperCard. You get *most* of the simplicity of the UI building, coupled with stronger editing and debugging tools.



    I'll be the first to admit it isn't as easy as HC was, and I'd *love* to see them produce an HC-like editing system that ties into ASS (huh-huh) aimed at the average consumer, but frankly, ASS (huh-huh) has quite a bit more potential power.



    *AND* you can tie your AppleScript Studio apps into other apps in the system... that was less than perfect under HC.



    *AND* writing 'OSAXen' for the new AppleScript implementation is dirt easy compared to the old way... any code snippet you have lying about can be made into an AS-accessible library, regardless of the language: C, C++, Obj-C, Java.



    Way, way more powerful.



    Now if they'd only provide that consumer tool...



    Hey! I know, they can call it iCard!



    Oh, wait...
  • Reply 7 of 18
    HyperCard could have been VisualBasic -- If Apple had focused on database drivers and client-server integration. Go back and check old issues of MacWorld where it's hyped as a proto-Form tool.



    However, it was never positioned that way (rumor was that MS talked them out of it), and therefore it lacked any reason to live.



    Can anyone name a HyperCard application that you couldn't do with HTML/JavaScript? The way I remember it, you had to write a C library to even do simple calculations.
  • Reply 8 of 18
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    [quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:

    <strong>Is this thing on? *thump thump*



    AppleScript Studio is, for all intents and purposes, the successor to HyperCard. You get *most* of the simplicity of the UI building, coupled with stronger editing and debugging tools.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I haven't had a chance to play much with AppleScript Studio (oh, how to abbreviate that!), but I will trust Bill Cheeseman's assessment that it's as much a pro development tool as it is anything else. HyperCard wasn't.



    I have heard rumblings (not through "sources," through posts by Apple employees to the public applescript-users list) that I interpret to mean that Apple is hard at work refining AppleScript for a long overdue move to prime time. Phil Schiller has gone on record as saying that Apple would cheerfully bring back HyperCard if they could find a way to position (i.e., market) it. It needs a hook, apparently.



    Maybe Apple decided to hook developers and power users on AS Studio, refine that, and then once it's been polished and battle-tested, reinvent it as a worthy successor to HyperCard. AppleScript + a specialized IB + XML = good things. AS Studio would stay for the pros.



    Hmm. I like this. I certainly hope it happens. HyperCard was revolutionary, but it could have been earthshaking.
  • Reply 9 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    [quote]Originally posted by IntlHarvester:

    <strong>HyperCard could have been VisualBasic -- If Apple had focused on database drivers and client-server integration. Go back and check old issues of MacWorld where it's hyped as a proto-Form tool.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    *twitch*



    Did you just compare HC to *twitch* VisualBasic?



    *twitch*



    No need to get insulting...



    The only thing VB has ever had going for it is that it's been pushed incessantly by MS. The language and tools are decidedly sub-par, and the only apps that allow it to integrate with them are from MS. (Could be others - *never* heard of one.)



    VB is really pretty silly. I still have a hard time not cracking up anytime some suit tells me that they're a programmer because they use VB.



    [quote]<strong>However, it was never positioned that way (rumor was that MS talked them out of it), and therefore it lacked any reason to live.



    Can anyone name a HyperCard application that you couldn't do with HTML/JavaScript? The way I remember it, you had to write a C library to even do simple calculations.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    HTML/JavaScript?!?



    Okay, now you really are being insulting. Blech. Technically, HC didn't do anything you couldn't do in raw assembler.



    And yes, you hit the nail on the head as to HC's achilles heel: extensibility.



    While the HC system was incredibly easy for the consumer/non-programmer to use as was, it was *amazingly* difficult to add new behaviour to.



    AppleScript has always been the other way around - new behaviour is lent to it by applications, but it lacked a front end GUI tool.



    AppleScript Studio gives you the GUI tool, AppleScript gives you the app-level extensibility, and the fact that Apple has integrated the runtime with the standard ABI for the platform gives you code library-level extensibility.



    Bill is right, amorph. ASS (huh-huh) really is a pro level tool, in that it has a lot of power, and requires a learning curve on the PB/IB interactions, etc. It's not for the casual mom and pop app builder.



    But the ability is there for someone to write a new builder app around it that mimics the ease of use of HC, leaving the extensions writing to the the pro level Studio.
  • Reply 10 of 18
    spookyspooky Posts: 504member
    Hypercard IS Macintosh.



    It let ordinary users do practically anything they wanted at the time very easily. It brought a bhuge amount of power into the hands of creatively minded people as opposed to geeks who used "grown up proper" programming environments.



    Pretty much like the Macintosh really.



    Its a sign of the times that since Hypercard was shelved the mac has ceased to be a mac.
  • Reply 11 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    HC was put on life support a *loooooong* time ago. System 8.5 or so.



    HC's greatest strength was its completely trivial interface for creating apps from pre-existing components.



    HC's greatest weakness was its *completely* trivial interface for creating apps from *only* pre-existing components.



    I think AS+S (aha!) will surpass HC fairly quickly, if given a slightly more friendly front end than PB/IB. Okay, a lot friendlier. But it can be done.



    Actually, you may be onto something there...



    Early Mac/HC: Slick easy interface, but once you want to do something more than what they pre-offer, you're *really* up a creek.



    Mid Mac(8.0-&gt;9.x)/HC on life support: Coasting on past laurels.



    MacOS X/AS+S: *INCREDIBLY* powerful base, with quite nice, but not as polished, interface.



    Up next: polish. Whoo-hoo!
  • Reply 12 of 18
    nevynnevyn Posts: 360member
    [quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:

    <strong>I think AS+S (aha!) will surpass HC fairly quickly, if given a slightly more friendly front end than PB/IB. Okay, a lot friendlier. But it can be done.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Pet hope: RECORDING.

    The real programmers laugh, but the target audience is the technophobe doing phone support. Or entering data. Or taking inventory photos. When every piece of the GUI and the helper Apps has been designed with this in mind, repetitive tasks get fixed by irritated users. Not by irritated IT guys - irritated users. There's a lot more users.



    Hypercards glory was: language, 'built in' actions, and GUI design-ease. (And the adoption by all of education, but that's something that would take, um, more work.)



    Applescript basically _is_ the language.

    IB is basically a more complex but amazingly powerful GUI builder.

    The missing piece is an App with the actions really thought out. AppleWorks might do with a complete overhaul. You get get a large amount of the verbs - but they're spread throughout a slew of separate apps. To be ubiquitous, it has to be a single Apple supplied app.
  • Reply 13 of 18
    [quote]it was a pos, it is a pos, and making it osx native won't make is not a pos. there are probably only like 2 people who still use it (if that many).[/QB]<hr></blockquote>



    The only reason I cease working with HyperCard was incompatibilities with OS 9, since my new computer don't run 8.6



    HyperCard is one of the most interesting Apple product... if only they could rewrite it for at least run on 9.x (or classic)
  • Reply 14 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    [quote]Originally posted by Nevyn:

    <strong>The missing piece is an App with the actions really thought out. AppleWorks might do with a complete overhaul. You get get a large amount of the verbs - but they're spread throughout a slew of separate apps. To be ubiquitous, it has to be a single Apple supplied app.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Which actions are you thinking of in particular? One thing that made my HC-nostalgic heart glad, when playing with AS+S for the first time, was that the UI elements have actions already proscribed for AS. IB adds an 'Actions' menu item in the Inspector, and you just go to town.



    The rest would be supplied with Apple-blessed standard libraries that replace the old OSAXen. Heck, a nice little shim to get access to things like QuickTime, ATAT, networking... Mmmmm.
  • Reply 15 of 18
    Whoh -- Somebody's ripping on Visual BASIC in a thread about HyperCard?



    Tell Me To Laugh Not Hard



    Whatever you thing about Basic as a language (it sucks, but at least it isn't ****ing stupid like HyperTalk), the point is that VB was the first widely available, working, GUI form-design program that you could easily plug into a database-back end. And it's a acknowleged rip off of HyperCard.



    HyperCard *could* have held that crown, but didn't. Fact is VB was 1000% more useful in the real world than HyperCard.



    (Imagine working for a major financial company where 40% of the desktops were Macs. Now imagine watching all those Macs getting tossed in the garbage and replaced by WfW machines because they couldn't talk the right protocols and they couldn't do "Client-Server". I was there when it happened, and you AI punks are sitting around holding your nuts wondering why Apple has a 3% marketshare...)
  • Reply 16 of 18
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    [quote]Originally posted by IntlHarvester:

    <strong>Whoh -- Somebody's ripping on Visual BASIC in a thread about HyperCard?



    Tell Me To Laugh Not Hard</strong><hr></blockquote>



    You're absolutely right I am. VB is an amazingly crufty hack. Period. I mean c'mon... BASIC? Sure, Bill may have a soft spot in his... er... heart for BASIC since it launched MS, but jeez, get with the modern age, would you?



    [quote]<strong>Whatever you thing about Basic as a language (it sucks, but at least it isn't ****ing stupid like HyperTalk), the point is that VB was the first widely available, working, GUI form-design program that you could easily plug into a database-back end. And it's a acknowleged rip off of HyperCard.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    So care to tell me how it was the first, but an acknowledged rip-off? HC also had backend DB connectivity.



    [quote]<strong>HyperCard *could* have held that crown, but didn't. Fact is VB was 1000% more useful in the real world than HyperCard.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Because VB interacts with MS apps (and only MS apps, of any note), while HC was a stand-alone system. Duh.



    AppleScript is the interconnection layer HC *could* have been, but wasn't. VB took a little bit of HyperCard (very little), a little bit of AppleScript (limited to MS apps), and then merged it with... BASIC. That still blows my mind. Talk about stifling your newborn.



    AppleScript Studio is, OTOH, VB on steroids. VB added something HC didn't have, but needed, and has now been seriously leapfrogged.



    [quote]<strong>(Imagine working for a major financial company where 40% of the desktops were Macs. Now imagine watching all those Macs getting tossed in the garbage and replaced by WfW machines because they couldn't talk the right protocols and they couldn't do "Client-Server". I was there when it happened, and you AI punks are sitting around holding your nuts wondering why Apple has a 3% marketshare...)</strong><hr></blockquote>



    What can I say? Sounds to me like someone above purchasing had made up their mind, and that was that. I've been there too, and facts don't mean a thing in such situations.



    'Couldn't talk the right protocols' = 'Can't talk with our Windows machines that we've already decided on.' Face it - if you're choosing between two proprietary systems, then claiming that one or the other can't talk the 'right' protocols is just justification for ditching it... the decision has already been made.



    'Can't do Client/Server' = see above. At the time of Windows for Workgroups (shudder), virtually all client/server interactions were proprietary. Now if you're talking about mainframe connectivity, solutions for the Mac did exist for all major systems.
  • Reply 17 of 18
    Oh how I loved Hypercard.... *sighs* It'd be fun to have it back. Making stacks and things when you were 9 and 10 was so damn cool!
  • Reply 18 of 18
    I agree...LONG LIVE HYPERCARD!
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