Network Guys: How badly does AppleTalk hurt network performance?
I have mentioned this topic in a few other threads, but wanted to start a new on in the hopes of getting to the bottom of this.
The IT dept has always kept Macs on their own subnet because they claim AT will kill network performance. In 2 weeks, we will be getting rid of this SN and moving the machines to the main network. This is a welcome move because we have had many odd problems as a result of being segregated like this. But it comes at a price.
The head douche bag in IT says he will not allow AT on the Network after this and I believe he is getting something that will block the protocol.
I have been made responsible for the Macs in my dept since the IT dept always shrugs their shoulders whenever Macs are involved. Despite this, I have no certifications or training in the area and draw only on years of experience. For better or worse, I have to work w/these guys to make our transition. I don't believe what they are saying, but can't really back myself up since they know more than me about this stuff (I do video and 3D BTW).
Now here's the question... Does AT hurt performance? Originally, their stance was that the broadcasting would flood the network with packets. Now the story is that because AT uses collision avoidance instead of collision detection, it will collide with the other packets and cause damage.
I'm callin' BS, but need some facts.
The IT dept has always kept Macs on their own subnet because they claim AT will kill network performance. In 2 weeks, we will be getting rid of this SN and moving the machines to the main network. This is a welcome move because we have had many odd problems as a result of being segregated like this. But it comes at a price.
The head douche bag in IT says he will not allow AT on the Network after this and I believe he is getting something that will block the protocol.
I have been made responsible for the Macs in my dept since the IT dept always shrugs their shoulders whenever Macs are involved. Despite this, I have no certifications or training in the area and draw only on years of experience. For better or worse, I have to work w/these guys to make our transition. I don't believe what they are saying, but can't really back myself up since they know more than me about this stuff (I do video and 3D BTW).
Now here's the question... Does AT hurt performance? Originally, their stance was that the broadcasting would flood the network with packets. Now the story is that because AT uses collision avoidance instead of collision detection, it will collide with the other packets and cause damage.
I'm callin' BS, but need some facts.
Comments
The other idea I keep telling people is to get a cheapo cube on ebay and put X Server on it. It'll do pretty-much everything you need and it'll look nice too. Oh and the upgrades are quite cheap too.
The guy changed his tune. He used to say broadcasting was the problem, now its the collision avoidance vs detection.
BTW, isn't AT in OSX done over IP? And if we drop AT, what do we replace it w/besides SMB? How do we network w/an IP protocol/
Like I said, I do media. Sorry if the questions are obvious.
<strong>We are on 10.2, but the server is an NT box so we have either AT or SMB. The other issue is printing. AT works great for this and Apple hasn't provided any alternative which is as simple. For the time being, we are going to use LPR.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What's wrong about using SMB and IP printing? You make it sound like a bad thing.
[quote]Originally posted by Keda:
<strong>BTW, isn't AT in OSX done over IP? And if we drop AT, what do we replace it w/besides SMB? How do we network w/an IP protocol/</strong><hr></blockquote>
Macs can connect to each other using AFP which is done over IP, and you can see them in Connect To Server.
Just disable AppleTalk in Network prefs.
You could just use ftp or nfs but smb is ok, works anyway.
I always prefer to talk directly to any IP-enabled printers anyway (via lpr), much quicker.
[quote] Macs can connect to each other using AFP which is done over IP, and you can see them in Connect To Server.
Just disable AppleTalk in Network prefs. <hr></blockquote>
Are you saying that you can urn off AT but still connect to Macs using afp?
[quote] you nw guy is talking rubbish collisions are a layer 2 thang, I assume you're using ethernet just like the normal network, <hr></blockquote>
Yes we're using Ethernet. Can you explain a bit more about this?
<strong>Are you saying that you can turn off AT but still connect to Macs using afp?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yep, just use Connect to Server as usual.
[quote]Originally posted by Keda:
<strong>Yes we're using Ethernet. Can you explain a bit more about this?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ethernet always uses collision detection; it has nothing to do with whatever protocol you run on top of it.
AirPort uses collision avoidance because the hidden terminal problem makes collision detection infeasible, but that's probably more than you wanted to know.
<a href="http://www1.umn.edu/oit/ipx-appletalk/"; target="_blank">http://www1.umn.edu/oit/ipx-appletalk/</a>;
we're going through this right now at my University, and there are some headaches.
<strong>Are you saying that you can urn off AT but still connect to Macs using afp?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yep, AFP is not AppleTalk.
With AFP you can still see other Macs, but unless they are using SLP for printers, you have to use IP printing and know the printers IP number to set them up in Print Center.
on the printing issue -- our studio has a HP laserjet 4MV with its own dedicated IP number. if we print to it via IP with a text document it works fine. print a document with an image in it (say an InDesign file) via IP and it spews 1000s of pages of garbage code.
yet, if we connect via Appletalk we can print anything without a problem. Its the one thing stopping us from turning Appletalk off on our network.
<strong>slightly off at a tangent but...
on the printing issue -- our studio has a HP laserjet 4MV with its own dedicated IP number. if we print to it via IP with a text document it works fine. print a document with an image in it (say an InDesign file) via IP and it spews 1000s of pages of garbage code.
yet, if we connect via Appletalk we can print anything without a problem. Its the one thing stopping us from turning Appletalk off on our network.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Try and send the data as binary if you send it in ASCII (look under the InDesign popup in the Print dialog).
This is one down side to LPR. I have also seen the 1000 page of crap symptom.
I'm going to spend some time one this today at work.
<strong>
This is one down side to LPR.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You could also get the nw admin to give the printers names in your DNS (if you use one).
Also, what is the 'preferred' method for printing on a non-AT nw? I read the above link (thanks) and it says that even Apple is not using AT on their campus. I realize that AT is more or less legacy, but what is filling the gap for print services (besides LPR). LPR does not seem easy enough to set up (not that its hard) to be the preferred method, we can't use NT print queues, and no one I know has any idea about CUPS.
<strong>Would this make available to users who were trying to add a new printer w/o knowing the IP?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If they know the name.
[quote]Originally posted by Keda:
<strong>Also, what is the 'preferred' method for printing on a non-AT nw?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I prefer IP.
[quote]Originally posted by Keda:
<strong>I realize that AT is more or less legacy, but what is filling the gap for print services (besides LPR). LPR does not seem easy enough to set up (not that its hard) to be the preferred method, we can't use NT print queues, and no one I know has any idea about CUPS.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Or can use SLP or Rendezvous when more printers support Rendezvous.
It's still IP printing though - they are just different ways to discover printers.
You don't have to know CUPS - Mac OS X uses CUPS in the background.
Btw. Mac OS X Server kan setup print queues available from both Macs and PCs.
Let me know if I can help any more.
The hidden node problem is wireless networks is that the nodes can't all see each other like nodes on a wired network can. Collision avoidance is used by all 802.11 networks, not just Airport.