Can you get Excel outside of Office? I thought they were all together.
Yes, the apps that make up "Office" are also available individually, but the best "value" is "usually" to purchase them altogether, if memory serves and anymore I'm not so sure of that ? Last I checked, the components that make up "Office" are: Word, Excel, Powerpoint and Access?
.... Last I checked, the components that make up "Office" are: Word, Excel, Powerpoint and Access?
No, this is not correct. The Office:mac bundle includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Entourage, MSN Messenger, plus Virtual PC 7 in Office Professional version. Microsoft never ported Access to the Mac. Outlook, which is part of the Office:win bundle saw its last Mac version in Outlook 2001. Instead, the Mac BU sells us Outlook's redheaded stepsister, Entourage.
No, this is not correct. The Office:mac bundle includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Entourage, MSN Messenger, plus Virtual PC 7 in Office Professional version. Microsoft never ported Access to the Mac. Outlook, which is part of the Office:win bundle saw its last Mac version in Outlook 2001. Instead, the Mac BU sells us Outlook's redheaded stepsister, Entourage.
Mr. Me, thanks for the "correction," much appreciated. I mentioned I wasn't sure my memory was as good as it once was ? The point of my post was to say the individual components that make up Office are, or were, available individually, at least for the Windows platform. Thanks again, very kind of you to share the "correct" information 8).
I used AppleWorks from when it was Claris Works way back when. Ran a business with it, kept a database of all of my students, managed my accounting needs, prepared texts, drew fantastic graphics and made presentations. For years and years. My wife only just stopped using it last month (upgraded her iMac at work from the original flat screen to a Intel iMac). AW is an excellent app (albeit a little dated now) and is very capable.
Pages and Keynote changed everything for me (as did changing jobs and eliminating the need for a spreadsheet. Both Pages and Keynote are amazing IMO. VoodooPad is now my database, though I am looking for something a bit more robust but not as rigid as DevonThink or SOHO Notes.
Pages rocks once you get a hang of it. Its integration with iPhoto is really helpful if you use lots of images in your documents. Keynote makes PowerPoint look like a child's toy.
Spreadsheet: AW will do you great for a while, depending on your needs (you can benefit from the drawing and database functions as well). The other apps mentioned here (Tables, Mariner, Excel) are great, but the latter does come at a cost. You may want to go with Mariner or Tables to save money and see what Apple comes up with next spring. As it is, iWork is not a business solution; hopefully they will do something nice in 2007.
This is basically OpenOffice with the Aqua UI. This should cover your needs, and will behave pretty much the same as Excel, and is able to save/open xls files.
Edit: It's also free, so there's no reason not to give it a shot.
I don't see what the problem is with using Excel in Office 2004. It is solid, stable, and hardly a feeble product. It is also so ubiquitous that you'll never have trouble transfering files no matter what platform you find yourself stuck with.
I don't see what the problem is with using Excel in Office 2004. It is solid, stable, and hardly a feeble product. It is also so ubiquitous that you'll never have trouble transfering files no matter what platform you find yourself stuck with.
It's pretty simple:
1) I don't want to pay for a spreadsheet. I don't want to pirate one either,
2) It's made by Microsoft, a company that was convicted of violating U.S. and European anti-trust laws.
3) It's made by Microsoft, a company that has gone on record as being vehemently opposed to the open source movement, or at least the Free Software movement.
4) It's made by Microsoft, a company that is, next to IBM, is the bigger software patent troll in the world.
5) It's made by Microsoft, a company that supports restrictive, intrusive, and planned obsolete Digital Restrictions Management (DRM).
6) To echo Kickaha's point, I refuse to use software that attempts to lock me into proprietary file formats.
The only contribution I have to make to this discussion is this:
Word is only useable if you turn everything off and hide all the tools apart from the formatting palette. And it's still evil, even then. Pages doesn't do what Word does.
The only contribution I have to make to this discussion is this:
Word is only useable if you turn everything off and hide all the tools apart from the formatting palette. And it's still evil, even then. Pages doesn't do what Word does.
This may be the subject of another thread, but why in God's name doesn't Apple release its own spreadsheet?
That's right! Only commercial software is worth using!
Never said that.
Quote:
Internet Explorer is better than Firefox!
iChat is better than Adium!
Yahoo! Messenger is better than Adium!
Terminal is better than iTerm!
QuickTime Pro is better than MPlayer
Of those, only QuickTime Pro is commercial, so you don't have much of a point. And yes, I use iChat as well as Yahoo! Messenger, despite having previously used Adium for years. And yes, I use Terminal over iTerm. And yes, I use QuickTime Pro over MPlayer. Heck, while in Windows, I often even use Internet Explorer 7, which is perfectly fine and unlike Firefox actually has proper interface elements, thankyouverymuch. I'm sorry if I suck in your view.
Quote:
Yes, boys and girls, Free and open source software is useless!
Never said so.
If you don't want to pay for something, no matter what, that's your choice to make, but it's nothing short of ignorant. Sometimes commercial software is superior. Sometimes open source software is superior. It has nothing at all to do with the license or the price tag.
1) I don't want to pay for a spreadsheet. I don't want to pirate one either,
2) It's made by Microsoft, a company that was convicted of violating U.S. and European anti-trust laws.
3) It's made by Microsoft, a company that has gone on record as being vehemently opposed to the open source movement, or at least the Free Software movement.
4) It's made by Microsoft, a company that is, next to IBM, is the bigger software patent troll in the world.
5) It's made by Microsoft, a company that supports restrictive, intrusive, and planned obsolete Digital Restrictions Management (DRM).
6) To echo Kickaha's point, I refuse to use software that attempts to lock me into proprietary file formats.
Er, no, you missed my point. The point wasn't that it uses a proprietary format, it was that compatibility isn't assured simply by going with the default, supposedly official, app. While I'm not a fan of proprietary formats, they're not the end of the world, if supported well. That last bit is the part where MS really screws the pooch, and makes it not worth dealing with the lock-in.
And JC... I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. Try *not* seeing it as Us vs. Them, and you'll come across as more rational. Some free software is better than the commercial counterpart... but that's the exception, in my experience. I choose the best tool, and pay for it, or not, as the developer wishes. Pretty simple.
Try choosing the app you need based on features, and relative price. Usually, free apps are worth every penny, IMO, but like I said, there are definite exceptions. When a commercial app fits my needs better, I'm very happy to pay the developer for their effort.
When it comes to spreadsheets, Excel isn't exactly a good tool to start with, and the only real reason I can see *needing* it is file format compatibility... but then, as I said, that's kind of a myth anyway. Unfortunately, every free spreadsheet I've seen tries to be an Excel clone, so you get an iffy copy of a crappy app. Whoo. Not compelling.
So in a field of meh spreadsheets, you might as well go for the one that costs the least, while causing the least pain to the user. Everyone's gotta figure out which one that is for them though. You were pointed at NeoOffice and OpenOffice. Go forth and play.
And you missed my point as well. Given that Microsoft is an evil company, why should I use their software?
Proprietary file formats restrict your freedom. There's no way in hell I'm going to give the keys to my most important documents to a commercial entity, to be taken away at will.
More often than not, commercial software sucks. More often than not, open source software sucks. Still, commercial software vendors don't give you the ability to fix the software yourself, effectively holding you hostage. A commercial software vendor will be strongly motivated to provide as many features as possible to win as many customers as possible. Open source software has an important advantage in that it's made by people who use it, and are genuinely motivated to make it better. Commercial software vendors want to sell software that *appears* to do everything their customers want. Yes, there are exceptions, but this is generally the rule.
Neooffice has stagnated since the two maintainers seem to have dissapeared. OpenOffice only runs under X11. Both apps force you to run the whole office suite, as opposed to its components.
I'm looking forward to KOffice getting ported to OS X, starting with version 4.0. When that arrives, that's what I'll use.
I'm not sure why Apple doesn't offer a stripped-down spreadsheet as an equivalent to TextPad, which has everything I could possibly want in a work processor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
Er, no, you missed my point. The point wasn't that it uses a proprietary format, it was that compatibility isn't assured simply by going with the default, supposedly official, app. While I'm not a fan of proprietary formats, they're not the end of the world, if supported well. That last bit is the part where MS really screws the pooch, and makes it not worth dealing with the lock-in.
And JC... I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. Try *not* seeing it as Us vs. Them, and you'll come across as more rational. Some free software is better than the commercial counterpart... but that's the exception, in my experience. I choose the best tool, and pay for it, or not, as the developer wishes. Pretty simple.
Try choosing the app you need based on features, and relative price. Usually, free apps are worth every penny, IMO, but like I said, there are definite exceptions. When a commercial app fits my needs better, I'm very happy to pay the developer for their effort.
When it comes to spreadsheets, Excel isn't exactly a good tool to start with, and the only real reason I can see *needing* it is file format compatibility... but then, as I said, that's kind of a myth anyway. Unfortunately, every free spreadsheet I've seen tries to be an Excel clone, so you get an iffy copy of a crappy app. Whoo. Not compelling.
So in a field of meh spreadsheets, you might as well go for the one that costs the least, while causing the least pain to the user. Everyone's gotta figure out which one that is for them though. You were pointed at NeoOffice and OpenOffice. Go forth and play.
Comments
Can you get Excel outside of Office? I thought they were all together.
Yes, the apps that make up "Office" are also available individually, but the best "value" is "usually" to purchase them altogether, if memory serves and anymore I'm not so sure of that
.... Last I checked, the components that make up "Office" are: Word, Excel, Powerpoint and Access?
No, this is not correct. The Office:mac bundle includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Entourage, MSN Messenger, plus Virtual PC 7 in Office Professional version. Microsoft never ported Access to the Mac. Outlook, which is part of the Office:win bundle saw its last Mac version in Outlook 2001. Instead, the Mac BU sells us Outlook's redheaded stepsister, Entourage.
No, this is not correct. The Office:mac bundle includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Entourage, MSN Messenger, plus Virtual PC 7 in Office Professional version. Microsoft never ported Access to the Mac. Outlook, which is part of the Office:win bundle saw its last Mac version in Outlook 2001. Instead, the Mac BU sells us Outlook's redheaded stepsister, Entourage.
Mr. Me, thanks for the "correction," much appreciated. I mentioned I wasn't sure my memory was as good as it once was
Google Spreadsheet is great. And its free and it takes up ZERO hard drive space.
If that doesnt do what you need, get OpenOffice.
I used AppleWorks from when it was Claris Works way back when. Ran a business with it, kept a database of all of my students, managed my accounting needs, prepared texts, drew fantastic graphics and made presentations. For years and years. My wife only just stopped using it last month (upgraded her iMac at work from the original flat screen to a Intel iMac). AW is an excellent app (albeit a little dated now) and is very capable.
Pages and Keynote changed everything for me (as did changing jobs and eliminating the need for a spreadsheet. Both Pages and Keynote are amazing IMO. VoodooPad is now my database, though I am looking for something a bit more robust but not as rigid as DevonThink or SOHO Notes.
Pages rocks once you get a hang of it. Its integration with iPhoto is really helpful if you use lots of images in your documents. Keynote makes PowerPoint look like a child's toy.
Spreadsheet: AW will do you great for a while, depending on your needs (you can benefit from the drawing and database functions as well). The other apps mentioned here (Tables, Mariner, Excel) are great, but the latter does come at a cost. You may want to go with Mariner or Tables to save money and see what Apple comes up with next spring. As it is, iWork is not a business solution; hopefully they will do something nice in 2007.
http://www.neooffice.org/
I haven't tried it, but it looks pretty complete. THere si a slight, indirect warning about its stability, though...
apple should do an aqua build of openoffice, tidy up the printing dialogues and include it on all new macs. Gimpshop could also be included.
While it's not by Apple: NeoOffice
This is basically OpenOffice with the Aqua UI. This should cover your needs, and will behave pretty much the same as Excel, and is able to save/open xls files.
Edit: It's also free, so there's no reason not to give it a shot.
Or previous versions of Excel for Mac.
Or later versions of Excel for either.
Or...
MS can't ever seem to get file compatibility straight, so I'm not sure why it's so important for other apps to be 100% accurate all the time...
(They've gotten *better*, but they're not 100%, and traditionally, it's been a big lie.)
I don't see what the problem is with using Excel in Office 2004. It is solid, stable, and hardly a feeble product. It is also so ubiquitous that you'll never have trouble transfering files no matter what platform you find yourself stuck with.
It's pretty simple:
1) I don't want to pay for a spreadsheet. I don't want to pirate one either,
2) It's made by Microsoft, a company that was convicted of violating U.S. and European anti-trust laws.
3) It's made by Microsoft, a company that has gone on record as being vehemently opposed to the open source movement, or at least the Free Software movement.
4) It's made by Microsoft, a company that is, next to IBM, is the bigger software patent troll in the world.
5) It's made by Microsoft, a company that supports restrictive, intrusive, and planned obsolete Digital Restrictions Management (DRM).
6) To echo Kickaha's point, I refuse to use software that attempts to lock me into proprietary file formats.
It's pretty simple:
1) I don't want to pay for a spreadsheet.
God forbid people spend money on something worthwhile.
Word is only useable if you turn everything off and hide all the tools apart from the formatting palette. And it's still evil, even then. Pages doesn't do what Word does.
God forbid people spend money on something worthwhile.
That's right! Only commercial software is worth using!
- Internet Explorer is better than Firefox!
- iChat is better than Adium!
- Yahoo! Messenger is better than Adium!
- Terminal is better than iTerm!
- QuickTime Pro is better than MPlayer
Yes, boys and girls, Free and open source software is useless! Always go for commercial software because it's always vastly superior!(Edit: spelling errors)
The only contribution I have to make to this discussion is this:
Word is only useable if you turn everything off and hide all the tools apart from the formatting palette. And it's still evil, even then. Pages doesn't do what Word does.
This may be the subject of another thread, but why in God's name doesn't Apple release its own spreadsheet?
That's right! Only commercial software is worth using!
Never said that.
Of those, only QuickTime Pro is commercial, so you don't have much of a point. And yes, I use iChat as well as Yahoo! Messenger, despite having previously used Adium for years. And yes, I use Terminal over iTerm. And yes, I use QuickTime Pro over MPlayer. Heck, while in Windows, I often even use Internet Explorer 7, which is perfectly fine and unlike Firefox actually has proper interface elements, thankyouverymuch. I'm sorry if I suck in your view.
Yes, boys and girls, Free and open source software is useless!
Never said so.
If you don't want to pay for something, no matter what, that's your choice to make, but it's nothing short of ignorant. Sometimes commercial software is superior. Sometimes open source software is superior. It has nothing at all to do with the license or the price tag.
(edited unnecessary statement)
It's pretty simple:
1) I don't want to pay for a spreadsheet. I don't want to pirate one either,
2) It's made by Microsoft, a company that was convicted of violating U.S. and European anti-trust laws.
3) It's made by Microsoft, a company that has gone on record as being vehemently opposed to the open source movement, or at least the Free Software movement.
4) It's made by Microsoft, a company that is, next to IBM, is the bigger software patent troll in the world.
5) It's made by Microsoft, a company that supports restrictive, intrusive, and planned obsolete Digital Restrictions Management (DRM).
6) To echo Kickaha's point, I refuse to use software that attempts to lock me into proprietary file formats.
Er, no, you missed my point. The point wasn't that it uses a proprietary format, it was that compatibility isn't assured simply by going with the default, supposedly official, app. While I'm not a fan of proprietary formats, they're not the end of the world, if supported well. That last bit is the part where MS really screws the pooch, and makes it not worth dealing with the lock-in.
And JC... I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. Try *not* seeing it as Us vs. Them, and you'll come across as more rational. Some free software is better than the commercial counterpart... but that's the exception, in my experience. I choose the best tool, and pay for it, or not, as the developer wishes. Pretty simple.
Try choosing the app you need based on features, and relative price. Usually, free apps are worth every penny, IMO, but like I said, there are definite exceptions. When a commercial app fits my needs better, I'm very happy to pay the developer for their effort.
When it comes to spreadsheets, Excel isn't exactly a good tool to start with, and the only real reason I can see *needing* it is file format compatibility... but then, as I said, that's kind of a myth anyway. Unfortunately, every free spreadsheet I've seen tries to be an Excel clone, so you get an iffy copy of a crappy app. Whoo. Not compelling.
So in a field of meh spreadsheets, you might as well go for the one that costs the least, while causing the least pain to the user. Everyone's gotta figure out which one that is for them though. You were pointed at NeoOffice and OpenOffice. Go forth and play.
Proprietary file formats restrict your freedom. There's no way in hell I'm going to give the keys to my most important documents to a commercial entity, to be taken away at will.
More often than not, commercial software sucks. More often than not, open source software sucks. Still, commercial software vendors don't give you the ability to fix the software yourself, effectively holding you hostage. A commercial software vendor will be strongly motivated to provide as many features as possible to win as many customers as possible. Open source software has an important advantage in that it's made by people who use it, and are genuinely motivated to make it better. Commercial software vendors want to sell software that *appears* to do everything their customers want. Yes, there are exceptions, but this is generally the rule.
Neooffice has stagnated since the two maintainers seem to have dissapeared. OpenOffice only runs under X11. Both apps force you to run the whole office suite, as opposed to its components.
I'm looking forward to KOffice getting ported to OS X, starting with version 4.0. When that arrives, that's what I'll use.
I'm not sure why Apple doesn't offer a stripped-down spreadsheet as an equivalent to TextPad, which has everything I could possibly want in a work processor.
Er, no, you missed my point. The point wasn't that it uses a proprietary format, it was that compatibility isn't assured simply by going with the default, supposedly official, app. While I'm not a fan of proprietary formats, they're not the end of the world, if supported well. That last bit is the part where MS really screws the pooch, and makes it not worth dealing with the lock-in.
And JC... I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. Try *not* seeing it as Us vs. Them, and you'll come across as more rational. Some free software is better than the commercial counterpart... but that's the exception, in my experience. I choose the best tool, and pay for it, or not, as the developer wishes. Pretty simple.
Try choosing the app you need based on features, and relative price. Usually, free apps are worth every penny, IMO, but like I said, there are definite exceptions. When a commercial app fits my needs better, I'm very happy to pay the developer for their effort.
When it comes to spreadsheets, Excel isn't exactly a good tool to start with, and the only real reason I can see *needing* it is file format compatibility... but then, as I said, that's kind of a myth anyway. Unfortunately, every free spreadsheet I've seen tries to be an Excel clone, so you get an iffy copy of a crappy app. Whoo. Not compelling.
So in a field of meh spreadsheets, you might as well go for the one that costs the least, while causing the least pain to the user. Everyone's gotta figure out which one that is for them though. You were pointed at NeoOffice and OpenOffice. Go forth and play.