Eh... Re-read your first rant. You are blowing steam over absolutely nothing in graphics and HD upgrading, in both of those areas any average PC beats any consumer Mac. You're comparing the PC to a mythical super PC (with completely independently upgradable parts) which doesn't exist, deduce that the PC sucks, and declare the Mac the winner by default, when it actually compares worse in many things. Be consistent...
Yeah actually my main thrust was dualcore CPU, because I want to have several Bittorrent threads running while also being able to play the latest PC games. If I focus on just the games, then GPU is alright, the 6600GT 128mb VRAM 1280x1024 with custom heatsinkfan and overclocked 500mhz to 560mhz, is actually reasonable for 16xAF and 2xAA, it does give mostly smooth gameplay on "medium" settings of most games. I just need 1GB of RAM to bring things to 2GB to give WinXP2pro and the games enough "headroom", $100, and just another 80GB 7200rpm HD, $50, to bring it to RAID0, the performance improvements in loading windows and particularly loading game/ game maps/ textures is pretty decent using the motherboard's nVidia RAID (no need for a separate RAID card). So, total of USD $150. Very workable.
In actual fact, let's say I get a Mac Mini (hopefully soon they'll bring the USD $800 model up to 2.0ghz Core2Duo (mobile) and 1GB RAM standard...) that's a more power-wise and multitasking-wise option for running Torrents and I'll have my own Mac. Much more worth the $800 than throwing that at a new dualcore Intel CPU, new motherboard, new RAM, new graphics card, some new heatsinkfans.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon
Personally, I'd very much like a gaming PC, and have been itching to play the latest computer games for the last five years, but have held off so far...
Wow, now that's some real willpower. ...After a 3 year break I tried out some gaming 2004-2006. Some titles are engaging and have a nice aesthetic to the graphics and resonate with me personally, while some titles are just... meh... like Matrix:Path of Neo, KingKong and TombRaider: Legend has a bad case of "console-itis" -- namely predictable levels with the boss at the end, and a lot of button (keyboard/mouse) mashing for Matrix:Path of Neo and KingKong.
Yeah.... USD$150 for new RAM, one more HD, existing graphics card, "medium smooth playable" settings of latest PC games, that's alright on the singlecore AMD64 Venice OC'ed at 2.15ghz. WinXP2pro. Scanning and printing off the PC (mainly tons of old/new important documents of the family scanned and copied etc.)
USD$800 for Mac Mini IntelCore2Duo [mobile] -- dualcore(!!) 1gb RAM, 100gb 5400rpm HD, running Torrents and beautiful iLife and Mac OS 10.4 Tiger and maybe in 6 months USD$129 for Leopard 10.5.x
I can have my cake, eat it, smear it all over my face, and lick the icing off my finger tips. YEAHHHHHHHH. That's it. Best of both worlds - dedicated GPU and games [PC], silent dualcore Torrent/ Web/ iLife/ Creative-ish/ Encoding/ Parallels/ Linux [Mac]... YEAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
And I get to use both on my Sony 17" 1280x1024. One VGA [PC] and one DVI input [Mac] -- although I probably need a KVM DVI+PS2+USB switcher, just one button on the KVM to flick between PC and Mac.
Only thing is that I won't be mobile and have an international warranty on the Mac. A MacBook is a bit of a cash blowout for me at this stage, sadly, and I played around with it, the resolution and size of the glossy display, brightness and colours, something ain't jiving with me. The MacBookPro is tooooo expensive and a bit heavy.
Well, thanks for helping me work through these confusing times.
I like PC gaming better because RTS games work way better on a PC, and also PCs can be upgraded to increase the performance, whereas consoles you are pretty much stuck with the graphics that technology gives you when the console came out, which is obsolete rather quickly.
Yeah, RTS and First person/ Third person action, I'd prefer PCs. I just don't *get* consoles. Also I'm a graphics whore, I think. \ ...I swear my 6600GT 128mb VRAM is as good as current XBOX360 games, as coded. Sure as developers get better with the platform they'll churn out some super-looking graphics that are on par with the latest PC GPUs, but then again, the few games I tried on a demo XBOX360, I wasn't super impressed with the graphics.
Yet another PC vs Mac bitching, one may say, but I have to express these thoughts this morning. Scorecard reads as PC:Mac below:
1. CPU upgrades. I was hella pissed off and inspired to write this thread. Hmm.. lets see, just over 1 year ago I bought an AMD64 Venice Athlon 3000+ Socket 939 single core. Considered mid-end, considered a solid option for gaming and general Windows task. Now, let's see, hmm... I want to buy a dualcore for my PC, let's say if they had a two 3000+ cores in Socket939, would be reasonable price right? WRONG. A Venice Athlon 3000+ is like $65 but a Socket939 dualcore is like over $300. WTF. Also, Socket 939 is on the outs majorly and Socket AM2 is all the rage now. Move to Intel Core2Duo you say? Cool, I say. But I'll have to get a new motherboard. Just only ONE YEAR after building my mid-end system. WTF. PC:Mac 0:0.
2. Graphics card upgrades. Hmm... let's see, I want the latest gaming card to play NeedForSpeed: Carbon. Macs suck for gaming, right? With a PC, I can just put another 6600GT in my PC for SLI and get 50% more GPU power - cheap and effective. WRONG. SLI is just an enthusiast blip on the radar. Go to http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html and look at some key charts. In some cases, SLI makes almost NO difference at all! PC:Mac 0:0
3. Hard Disk upgrades: Laptop: MacBook features a very easily swappable notebook HD. You can upgrade size, or speed up to 7200rpm, or down the line, both. Without violating your warranty, in general. Can't do that for most PC notebooks. MacBookPro - you can get a certified tech to do it without violating your warranty, ok, maybe you can get similar service for HP/Compaq/Acer but not really a Dell. PC:Mac 0:1
4. Hard Disk upgrades: Desktops: Mac Mini - possible if one is careful without violating warranty. Stackable external drives bus-powered FW400. iMac, okay, have to go external. PC tower: now let's say I want to add more drives for RAID 0. Yeah... cool, I have an 80gb hard disk, I'll get another 80gb. Okay, possible. Unless I want more storage in which case I have to buy two 120gb or so hard disks for RAID 0. PC:Mac 0:0
5. Which brings us to Mac Pro, which I will just place against PC workstation/ enthusiast desktop. PC:Mac 1:1
6. Price: The entry price of PCs is definitely much lower, but you get what you pay for and there are strong arguments against the "Apple Tax". I'm almost going to give the PC:Mac 1:0 but given the Apple extended 3 year warranty which you can buy anytime in the first 12 months of purchase, and my personal experience with 3 year warranties being generally decent, PC:Mac 1:1 in terms of pricing in the long term view of 2-3 years, not just 1 year.
7. RAM: No brainer on this one. You can buy non-Apple RAM for your Mac. PCs have a variety of RAM as well. Not relevant. PC:Mac 0:0.
8. Mac OS 10.4 Tiger vs Windows XP and Leopard vs Windows Vista. Easy. PC:Mac 0:1
9. Running all my "critical business apps" and Microsoft Office 2007 on Windows. Bootcamp and Parallels makes this argument much weaker. Adobe and Macromedia in Bootcamp or Parallels makes Rosetta/ "Macromedia snappiness on PC" issues less critical. PC:Mac 0:0
10. Display: Laptops. You can't make it bigger or have a higher resolution, PC or Mac, for the most part. You can plug it in to an external monitor. No difference here. Display: Desktops. Mac Mini and Mac Pro: No difference here. Now the biggest gripe about the iMac - "I'm stuck with the same display for 3 years..." ...Well guess what, so am I for my PC desktop. I got a Sony 17" 1280x1024 with full 3 year warranty. Would I be swapping it out anytime soon? Probably not. It's better to have another 17" side by side if I really need more screen real estate. With the iMac, since you don't have the junk of the PC Tower taking up space, actually it's easier and less clutter to just place another 17" or 20" display of any brand, non-Apple, next to the iMac. PC:Mac 0:0
11(a). Hmmm... Now let me see. Let's say I want to upgrade my AMD64 rig mid-end, after 1.5 years. Okay, new hard disks (let's assume for bigger storage RAID0 or even other RAIDs, better to have newer better hard disks which are the same models). New CPU. New graphics card. Oh, new motherboard. I want widescreen 1600x1200 gaming for my great new graphics card. New monitor. More RAM. Oh, wait, NEW RAM, because I'm changing my motherboard because I just want another core for my CPU. Doesn't have to be faster, just another core. Too bad. NEW RAM. Ah, check out all my sweet upgrades. Hmmm... wait a second, I could have just bought a brand new computer with a DVD burner.... all I would have kept is the casing and power supply! Oh wait, probably need a new power supply with the more demanding GPU and for motherboard and overall Windows stability, because a crappy power supply for a desktop PC can cause instability if you cut corners there. But I can run Vista now! Woooooooo. Frack off. OS 10.4 over 10.3 has shown general performance improvements on EXISTING Mac hardware. 10.5 over 10.4 should show similar if not a minor performance hit over EXISTING Mac hardware. Oh, and $129 for a new operating system is reasonable and on par with say a WinXP upgrade. Not so much so with a Win Vista upgrade, it's going to cost more.
11(b). So here I was, happy with my tinkering on the PC, and looking forward to a few simple upgrades I can do without buying a new one. WRONG. It's a myth. Don't get me wrong, I still generally understand PCs and Macs and enjoy having a PC around to say, add some RAM, or add in a 5.25" DVD burner, change some fans for aftermarket CPU and/or GPU heatsink-fans. But in reality, in the course of 2-3 years, a Mac "fixed/ trapped/ bullied/ zealot" computer is generally better in the course of things particularly at this stage with hardware requirements for an enjoyable Vista experience and the cost of upgrading to Vista. PC:Mac 0:1
12. Let's add things up: PC:Mac 2:5. Thanks for playing 8)
<tries to jam 2GB RAM in my 1.75 year old Mac Mini> NO LUCK!
<Does same to 3 year old PC> _ Success
<Tries to add NV6k-series (fine for the limited gaming I do) to the Mini> Nope!
<same PC> DONE!
Rince and repeate for a DVD burner, sound card, FW card, 2nd third and fourth hard disks and more...
My PC is a low end Presario, ~300 new and it does a lot upgrade-wise...and everyone knows you should only upgrade procs when you change MOBOs and get the matching generation of each for maximum preformance (fastest available buses, I/O and so on)
Buy a XBOX360 or a PS3 for games. They will last for a while and they are cheaper. Unlike the PC, they don't need upgrades every time a new title comes out.
Plus linux is officially supported on the PS3, which makes it a damn impressive media server as well.
Okay, new hard disks (let's assume for bigger storage RAID0 or even other RAIDs, better to have newer better hard disks which are the same models). New CPU. New graphics card. Oh, new motherboard. I want widescreen 1600x1200 gaming for my great new graphics card. New monitor. More RAM. Oh, wait, NEW RAM, because I'm changing my motherboard because I just want another core for my CPU. Doesn't have to be faster, just another core.
I still don't understand what does that fact that you realized that you need to spend $300 on a new CPU have to do with PCs being more or less upgradable than Macs?
Have your priced out a comparable upgrade to the Mac?
Have you priced out a Mac that will give you a comparable performance to your PC wth the new CPU?
Have you decided what is it that you want? Another core on the CPU? A new computer system?
Perhaps if you could answer these questions, we can help you actually solve your problem rather than deal with abstract philosophical problems.
Buy a XBOX360 or a PS3 for games. They will last for a while and they are cheaper. Unlike the PC, they don't need upgrades every time a new title comes out.
If you like to play games designed for outdated hardware (as is the case for the game consoles), you don't need to upgrade the PC either.
State-of-the-art is a moving target and if that is what you like, you need to upgrade often.
Yeah actually my main thrust was dualcore CPU, because I want to have several Bittorrent threads running while also being able to play the latest PC games. If I focus on just the games, then GPU is alright, the 6600GT 128mb VRAM 1280x1024 with custom heatsinkfan and overclocked 500mhz to 560mhz, is actually reasonable for 16xAF and 2xAA, it does give mostly smooth gameplay on "medium" settings of most games. I just need 1GB of RAM to bring things to 2GB to give WinXP2pro and the games enough "headroom", $100, and just another 80GB 7200rpm HD, $50, to bring it to RAID0, the performance improvements in loading windows and particularly loading game/ game maps/ textures is pretty decent using the motherboard's nVidia RAID (no need for a separate RAID card). So, total of USD $150. Very workable.
In actual fact, let's say I get a Mac Mini (hopefully soon they'll bring the USD $800 model up to 2.0ghz Core2Duo (mobile) and 1GB RAM standard...) that's a more power-wise and multitasking-wise option for running Torrents and I'll have my own Mac. Much more worth the $800 than throwing that at a new dualcore Intel CPU, new motherboard, new RAM, new graphics card, some new heatsinkfans.....
... now you're solving the problem. Great!
Quote:
Wow, now that's some real willpower.
Nah, it was mostly environment and lack of funds, and it was not a total lack of gaming. First I moved on Macs (PB, later on sold that and got iBook+big external display) so couldn't afford a new PC. I got a PS2 so I could do the console kind of gaming. I played a bit of WoW on iBook, as painful as it was. I actually quit playing because I saw the whole point was playing vs other players and the iB couldn't handle that. The last year I've been in the Army with no time for gaming. I go home in January and would very much like to play all sorts of strategy games, RPG's, FEAR, SupCom, WoW:BC, new multiplayer FPS games, and other nice things published during my "time off". But I'm so fed up with Windows.. I thought I could tolerate it, but even a little contact at work is abrasive. I will need to have an OS X box no matter what - and upgrade time is coming up - so a PC on top of that would be expensive. An xMac coming out before Leopard would be perfect.
I still don't understand what does that fact that you realized that you need to spend $300 on a new CPU have to do with PCs being more or less upgradable than Macs?
Have your priced out a comparable upgrade to the Mac?
Have you priced out a Mac that will give you a comparable performance to your PC wth the new CPU?
Have you decided what is it that you want? Another core on the CPU? A new computer system?
Perhaps if you could answer these questions, we can help you actually solve your problem rather than deal with abstract philosophical problems.
Yes, I have come to a few conclusions and de-abstracted some of the philosophical questions:: I had it in a recent post above:
Yeah.... USD$150 for new RAM, one more HD, existing graphics card, "medium smooth playable" settings of latest PC games, that's alright on the singlecore AMD64 Venice OC'ed at 2.15ghz. WinXP2pro. Scanning and printing off the PC (mainly tons of old/new important documents of the family scanned and copied etc.)
USD$800 for Mac Mini IntelCore2Duo [mobile] -- dualcore(!!) 1gb RAM, 100gb 5400rpm HD, running Torrents and beautiful iLife and Mac OS 10.4 Tiger and maybe in 6 months USD$129 for Leopard 10.5.x
I can have my cake, eat it, smear it all over my face, and lick the icing off my finger tips. YEAHHHHHHHH. That's it. Best of both worlds - dedicated GPU and games [PC], silent dualcore Torrent/ Web/ iLife/ Creative-ish/ Encoding/ Parallels/ Linux [Mac]... YEAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
And I get to use both on my Sony 17" 1280x1024. One VGA [PC] and one DVI input [Mac] -- although I probably need a KVM DVI+PS2+USB switcher, just one button on the KVM to flick between PC and Mac.
Thanks to all of the comments here. 8) The key is I thought I needed dualcore to run a game and torrents at the same time. Adding the upgrades up for new CPU = new CPU + new motherboard + new RAM, and the ridiculous (I'm still pissed at AMD) cost for an Athlon X2 dualcore, even low-end, I realised that money could go towards a (OMFG dualcore) Mac Mini - and it's much better leaving the Mac Mini on all the time, rather than the PC tower noisy + energygobbling.
So - Mac Mini for overall tasks. PC becomes mainly a gaming machine, because, I've tolerated Windows as much as I can but would prefer the PC ONLY FOR GAMING, not anything else. So just another 1GB RAM to bring it to 2GB, and another HD for RAID0 2x80gb for fast loading of games/ textures/ levels/ etc.
Upgrading PC GPUs are a bit of a zero-sum game, your graphics are always *not* as pretty as it really could be. If I look and feel and think carefully, the 6600GT gives a decent enough visual experience to enjoy the "meat" and "cinematic experience" of the game, as I have played through HL2, HL2:Episode1 with HDR, FEAR, and BattleforMiddleEarth:2. Command&Conquer3 should be pretty cool at my "medium" settings. Ditto for NeedForSpeed:Carbon. Quality overall better than PS2 and Wii and Xbox, about as good as current or slightly older Xbox360. PS3 is just ridiculously priced at this stage for most intents and purposes.
If you like to play games designed for outdated hardware (as is the case for the game consoles), you don't need to upgrade the PC either.
State-of-the-art is a moving target and if that is what you like, you need to upgrade often.
Yes, good point, see above, I "searched my soul" and came to the conclusion:
Upgrading PC GPUs are a bit of a zero-sum game, your graphics are always *not* as pretty as it really could be. If I look and feel and think carefully, the 6600GT gives a decent enough visual experience to enjoy the "meat" and "cinematic experience" of the game, as I have played through HL2, HL2:Episode1 with HDR, FEAR, and BattleforMiddleEarth:2. Command&Conquer3 should be pretty cool at my "medium" settings. Ditto for NeedForSpeed:Carbon. Quality overall better than PS2 and Wii and Xbox, about as good as current or slightly older Xbox360. PS3 is just ridiculously priced at this stage for most intents and purposes.
<tries to jam 2GB RAM in my 1.75 year old Mac Mini> NO LUCK!
<Does same to 3 year old PC> _ Success
<Tries to add NV6k-series (fine for the limited gaming I do) to the Mini> Nope!
<same PC> DONE!
Rince and repeate for a DVD burner, sound card, FW card, 2nd third and fourth hard disks and more...
My PC is a low end Presario, ~300 new and it does a lot upgrade-wise...and everyone knows you should only upgrade procs when you change MOBOs and get the matching generation of each for maximum preformance (fastest available buses, I/O and so on)
Nice try. Top marks for using the underscore in _Success -- that's such a Windows habit, no?
I have to say though, your low-end Presario, what is it? Pentium3? Pentium4? Shithouse CPU, mate. Your 3 year old CPU can take 2GB RAM, a RAID HD setup, and nVidia 6k-series, Creative 7.1 surround but because of your crappy CPU those upgrades aren't worth the money. You'd honestly be better off buying a recent Dell. I'm open to discussing this point further. A 3-year old PC can take such upgrades you mentioned. But in terms of multitasking and making the most of those upgrades, you will be facing *severe* CPU-limitations in running the programs/ games you want which the upgrades were supposed to enable.
This was my main thrust in my original post. Comparing to Macs complicates the issue. So let's take the Macs out of the equations. I would say within 2 years upgrade options for PCs are worthwhile. 3+ years, one is better off eBaying the old PC for residual value, and getting a new Dell or HP.
Nice try. Top marks for using the underscore in _Success -- that's such a Windows habit, no?
I have to say though, your low-end Presario, what is it? Pentium3? Pentium4? Shithouse CPU, mate. Your 3 year old CPU can take 2GB RAM, a RAID HD setup, and nVidia 6k-series, Creative 7.1 surround but because of your crappy CPU those upgrades aren't worth the money. You'd honestly be better off buying a recent Dell. I'm open to discussing this point further. A 3-year old PC can take such upgrades you mentioned. But in terms of multitasking and making the most of those upgrades, you will be facing *severe* CPU-limitations in running the programs/ games you want which the upgrades were supposed to enable.
This was my main thrust in my original post. Comparing to Macs complicates the issue. So let's take the Macs out of the equations. I would say within 2 years upgrade options for PCs are worthwhile. 3+ years, one is better off eBaying the old PC for residual value, and getting a new Dell or HP.
As a matter of fact, I have an AMD 1800, good for when I got it, it has an N-Force 2 mainboard, and it happens that I have not bought a part for this unit retail...people give me their old boxen when I was a student, saying "it is broke, I replaced it, if you can use it as a whole or for parts do it" I got a gig of ram that way, I got an extra HDD that way, I bought the vid card off a bud who upgraded to a PCI-E setup and had no use for the AGP card as he had given the MoBo to someone else...I offered him $20 for it and he accepted...
I was a college student...I was driving a crappy car held together because a bud happens to be a mechanic who could help with it, I was scrimping...I did what it took to get decent hardware...and for the record, I am planning to buy a nice system complete with big display in the spring of '07, after I pay off debts and can buy it cash on the barrel.
Look, I apologise if I offended you. I too have had phases where I was very cash-strapped. I did not mean to insult you. All I was trying to say with a bit of humour, and maybe too brusquely, was that if one was to bring a 3+ year old CPU up to a current state, the upgrade money might as well be spent on a new PC. If one was upgrading certain bits that you get at a good low price, that's cool.
Two years ago I racked up $5000 in credit card debts buying the latest Macs (obsessive behaviour now "medically" attributed to my bipolar manic phases). After some tax refunds I got my AMD64 rig in mid-2005, and from mid-2005-mid-2006, it was something worthwhile to tinker around with while the other times I would be clinically depressed and completely dependent on my parents.
I have just started to get some "allowance" money (disability social security) so I am looking at options down the line as I perhaps start to get back to work, or look at things that would help my mental state. Upgrading PC for gaming is not as frivolous as it may be, it helps de-stress, and getting a Mac can be very useful in sorting out day-to-day affairs, not be bogged down by the negative aspects of Windows, and hopefully staying in touch with Tech may lead to a Mac/PC -related job/ some work/ volunteering down the line, whether I continue to be on some disability payments or not. I have interviewed in the past two years for various web design/ interactive media tutoring/ pc component business/ mac reseller shop jobs...
I have never owned a car and have taken public/school bus transport most of my life since high school... Recently borrowing my parents' car and aunt's car where needed, still very dependent financially on my parents.
I have been for the past four months mainly using a Pentium-4-laptop 2ghz that my cousin has lent me, 1024x768 screen, and no games whatsoever for about 4 months now... At least I have a computer and broadband luckily as long as I need while I am in Australia, thanks to my aunt and cousin. I use my parents' iBook G4 when needed to back up their stuff, upgrade software, and just enjoy a bit of OSX now and then.
I empathise with your situation....Ok, take care, alright?
Comments
This thread sucks.
Eh... Re-read your first rant. You are blowing steam over absolutely nothing in graphics and HD upgrading, in both of those areas any average PC beats any consumer Mac. You're comparing the PC to a mythical super PC (with completely independently upgradable parts) which doesn't exist, deduce that the PC sucks, and declare the Mac the winner by default, when it actually compares worse in many things. Be consistent...
Yeah actually my main thrust was dualcore CPU, because I want to have several Bittorrent threads running while also being able to play the latest PC games. If I focus on just the games, then GPU is alright, the 6600GT 128mb VRAM 1280x1024 with custom heatsinkfan and overclocked 500mhz to 560mhz, is actually reasonable for 16xAF and 2xAA, it does give mostly smooth gameplay on "medium" settings of most games. I just need 1GB of RAM to bring things to 2GB to give WinXP2pro and the games enough "headroom", $100, and just another 80GB 7200rpm HD, $50, to bring it to RAID0, the performance improvements in loading windows and particularly loading game/ game maps/ textures is pretty decent using the motherboard's nVidia RAID (no need for a separate RAID card). So, total of USD $150. Very workable.
In actual fact, let's say I get a Mac Mini (hopefully soon they'll bring the USD $800 model up to 2.0ghz Core2Duo (mobile) and 1GB RAM standard...) that's a more power-wise and multitasking-wise option for running Torrents and I'll have my own Mac. Much more worth the $800 than throwing that at a new dualcore Intel CPU, new motherboard, new RAM, new graphics card, some new heatsinkfans.....
Personally, I'd very much like a gaming PC, and have been itching to play the latest computer games for the last five years, but have held off so far...
Wow, now that's some real willpower.
USD$800 for Mac Mini IntelCore2Duo [mobile] -- dualcore(!!) 1gb RAM, 100gb 5400rpm HD, running Torrents and beautiful iLife and Mac OS 10.4 Tiger and maybe in 6 months USD$129 for Leopard 10.5.x
I can have my cake, eat it, smear it all over my face, and lick the icing off my finger tips. YEAHHHHHHHH. That's it. Best of both worlds - dedicated GPU and games [PC], silent dualcore Torrent/ Web/ iLife/ Creative-ish/ Encoding/ Parallels/ Linux [Mac]... YEAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
And I get to use both on my Sony 17" 1280x1024. One VGA [PC] and one DVI input [Mac] -- although I probably need a KVM DVI+PS2+USB switcher, just one button on the KVM to flick between PC and Mac.
Well, thanks for helping me work through these confusing times.
I like PC gaming better because RTS games work way better on a PC, and also PCs can be upgraded to increase the performance, whereas consoles you are pretty much stuck with the graphics that technology gives you when the console came out, which is obsolete rather quickly.
Yeah, RTS and First person/ Third person action, I'd prefer PCs. I just don't *get* consoles. Also I'm a graphics whore, I think.
Yet another PC vs Mac bitching, one may say, but I have to express these thoughts this morning. Scorecard reads as PC:Mac below:
1. CPU upgrades. I was hella pissed off and inspired to write this thread. Hmm.. lets see, just over 1 year ago I bought an AMD64 Venice Athlon 3000+ Socket 939 single core. Considered mid-end, considered a solid option for gaming and general Windows task. Now, let's see, hmm... I want to buy a dualcore for my PC, let's say if they had a two 3000+ cores in Socket939, would be reasonable price right? WRONG. A Venice Athlon 3000+ is like $65 but a Socket939 dualcore is like over $300. WTF. Also, Socket 939 is on the outs majorly and Socket AM2 is all the rage now. Move to Intel Core2Duo you say? Cool, I say. But I'll have to get a new motherboard. Just only ONE YEAR after building my mid-end system. WTF. PC:Mac 0:0.
2. Graphics card upgrades. Hmm... let's see, I want the latest gaming card to play NeedForSpeed: Carbon. Macs suck for gaming, right? With a PC, I can just put another 6600GT in my PC for SLI and get 50% more GPU power - cheap and effective. WRONG. SLI is just an enthusiast blip on the radar. Go to http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html and look at some key charts. In some cases, SLI makes almost NO difference at all! PC:Mac 0:0
3. Hard Disk upgrades: Laptop: MacBook features a very easily swappable notebook HD. You can upgrade size, or speed up to 7200rpm, or down the line, both. Without violating your warranty, in general. Can't do that for most PC notebooks. MacBookPro - you can get a certified tech to do it without violating your warranty, ok, maybe you can get similar service for HP/Compaq/Acer but not really a Dell. PC:Mac 0:1
4. Hard Disk upgrades: Desktops: Mac Mini - possible if one is careful without violating warranty. Stackable external drives bus-powered FW400. iMac, okay, have to go external. PC tower: now let's say I want to add more drives for RAID 0. Yeah... cool, I have an 80gb hard disk, I'll get another 80gb. Okay, possible. Unless I want more storage in which case I have to buy two 120gb or so hard disks for RAID 0. PC:Mac 0:0
5. Which brings us to Mac Pro, which I will just place against PC workstation/ enthusiast desktop. PC:Mac 1:1
6. Price: The entry price of PCs is definitely much lower, but you get what you pay for and there are strong arguments against the "Apple Tax". I'm almost going to give the PC:Mac 1:0 but given the Apple extended 3 year warranty which you can buy anytime in the first 12 months of purchase, and my personal experience with 3 year warranties being generally decent, PC:Mac 1:1 in terms of pricing in the long term view of 2-3 years, not just 1 year.
7. RAM: No brainer on this one. You can buy non-Apple RAM for your Mac. PCs have a variety of RAM as well. Not relevant. PC:Mac 0:0.
8. Mac OS 10.4 Tiger vs Windows XP and Leopard vs Windows Vista. Easy. PC:Mac 0:1
9. Running all my "critical business apps" and Microsoft Office 2007 on Windows. Bootcamp and Parallels makes this argument much weaker. Adobe and Macromedia in Bootcamp or Parallels makes Rosetta/ "Macromedia snappiness on PC" issues less critical. PC:Mac 0:0
10. Display: Laptops. You can't make it bigger or have a higher resolution, PC or Mac, for the most part. You can plug it in to an external monitor. No difference here. Display: Desktops. Mac Mini and Mac Pro: No difference here. Now the biggest gripe about the iMac - "I'm stuck with the same display for 3 years..." ...Well guess what, so am I for my PC desktop. I got a Sony 17" 1280x1024 with full 3 year warranty. Would I be swapping it out anytime soon? Probably not. It's better to have another 17" side by side if I really need more screen real estate. With the iMac, since you don't have the junk of the PC Tower taking up space, actually it's easier and less clutter to just place another 17" or 20" display of any brand, non-Apple, next to the iMac. PC:Mac 0:0
11(a). Hmmm... Now let me see. Let's say I want to upgrade my AMD64 rig mid-end, after 1.5 years. Okay, new hard disks (let's assume for bigger storage RAID0 or even other RAIDs, better to have newer better hard disks which are the same models). New CPU. New graphics card. Oh, new motherboard. I want widescreen 1600x1200 gaming for my great new graphics card. New monitor. More RAM. Oh, wait, NEW RAM, because I'm changing my motherboard because I just want another core for my CPU. Doesn't have to be faster, just another core. Too bad. NEW RAM. Ah, check out all my sweet upgrades. Hmmm... wait a second, I could have just bought a brand new computer with a DVD burner.... all I would have kept is the casing and power supply! Oh wait, probably need a new power supply with the more demanding GPU and for motherboard and overall Windows stability, because a crappy power supply for a desktop PC can cause instability if you cut corners there. But I can run Vista now! Woooooooo. Frack off. OS 10.4 over 10.3 has shown general performance improvements on EXISTING Mac hardware. 10.5 over 10.4 should show similar if not a minor performance hit over EXISTING Mac hardware. Oh, and $129 for a new operating system is reasonable and on par with say a WinXP upgrade. Not so much so with a Win Vista upgrade, it's going to cost more.
11(b). So here I was, happy with my tinkering on the PC, and looking forward to a few simple upgrades I can do without buying a new one. WRONG. It's a myth. Don't get me wrong, I still generally understand PCs and Macs and enjoy having a PC around to say, add some RAM, or add in a 5.25" DVD burner, change some fans for aftermarket CPU and/or GPU heatsink-fans. But in reality, in the course of 2-3 years, a Mac "fixed/ trapped/ bullied/ zealot" computer is generally better in the course of things particularly at this stage with hardware requirements for an enjoyable Vista experience and the cost of upgrading to Vista. PC:Mac 0:1
12. Let's add things up: PC:Mac 2:5. Thanks for playing 8)
<tries to jam 2GB RAM in my 1.75 year old Mac Mini> NO LUCK!
<Does same to 3 year old PC> _ Success
<Tries to add NV6k-series (fine for the limited gaming I do) to the Mini> Nope!
<same PC> DONE!
Rince and repeate for a DVD burner, sound card, FW card, 2nd third and fourth hard disks and more...
My PC is a low end Presario, ~300 new and it does a lot upgrade-wise...and everyone knows you should only upgrade procs when you change MOBOs and get the matching generation of each for maximum preformance (fastest available buses, I/O and so on)
Buy a XBOX360 or a PS3 for games. They will last for a while and they are cheaper. Unlike the PC, they don't need upgrades every time a new title comes out.
Plus linux is officially supported on the PS3, which makes it a damn impressive media server as well.
Okay, new hard disks (let's assume for bigger storage RAID0 or even other RAIDs, better to have newer better hard disks which are the same models). New CPU. New graphics card. Oh, new motherboard. I want widescreen 1600x1200 gaming for my great new graphics card. New monitor. More RAM. Oh, wait, NEW RAM, because I'm changing my motherboard because I just want another core for my CPU. Doesn't have to be faster, just another core.
I still don't understand what does that fact that you realized that you need to spend $300 on a new CPU have to do with PCs being more or less upgradable than Macs?
Have your priced out a comparable upgrade to the Mac?
Have you priced out a Mac that will give you a comparable performance to your PC wth the new CPU?
Have you decided what is it that you want? Another core on the CPU? A new computer system?
Perhaps if you could answer these questions, we can help you actually solve your problem rather than deal with abstract philosophical problems.
Buy a XBOX360 or a PS3 for games. They will last for a while and they are cheaper. Unlike the PC, they don't need upgrades every time a new title comes out.
If you like to play games designed for outdated hardware (as is the case for the game consoles), you don't need to upgrade the PC either.
State-of-the-art is a moving target and if that is what you like, you need to upgrade often.
Yeah actually my main thrust was dualcore CPU, because I want to have several Bittorrent threads running while also being able to play the latest PC games. If I focus on just the games, then GPU is alright, the 6600GT 128mb VRAM 1280x1024 with custom heatsinkfan and overclocked 500mhz to 560mhz, is actually reasonable for 16xAF and 2xAA, it does give mostly smooth gameplay on "medium" settings of most games. I just need 1GB of RAM to bring things to 2GB to give WinXP2pro and the games enough "headroom", $100, and just another 80GB 7200rpm HD, $50, to bring it to RAID0, the performance improvements in loading windows and particularly loading game/ game maps/ textures is pretty decent using the motherboard's nVidia RAID (no need for a separate RAID card). So, total of USD $150. Very workable.
In actual fact, let's say I get a Mac Mini (hopefully soon they'll bring the USD $800 model up to 2.0ghz Core2Duo (mobile) and 1GB RAM standard...) that's a more power-wise and multitasking-wise option for running Torrents and I'll have my own Mac. Much more worth the $800 than throwing that at a new dualcore Intel CPU, new motherboard, new RAM, new graphics card, some new heatsinkfans.....
... now you're solving the problem. Great!
Wow, now that's some real willpower.
Nah, it was mostly environment and lack of funds, and it was not a total lack of gaming. First I moved on Macs (PB, later on sold that and got iBook+big external display) so couldn't afford a new PC. I got a PS2 so I could do the console kind of gaming. I played a bit of WoW on iBook, as painful as it was. I actually quit playing because I saw the whole point was playing vs other players and the iB couldn't handle that. The last year I've been in the Army with no time for gaming. I go home in January and would very much like to play all sorts of strategy games, RPG's, FEAR, SupCom, WoW:BC, new multiplayer FPS games, and other nice things published during my "time off". But I'm so fed up with Windows.. I thought I could tolerate it, but even a little contact at work is abrasive. I will need to have an OS X box no matter what - and upgrade time is coming up - so a PC on top of that would be expensive.
I still don't understand what does that fact that you realized that you need to spend $300 on a new CPU have to do with PCs being more or less upgradable than Macs?
Have your priced out a comparable upgrade to the Mac?
Have you priced out a Mac that will give you a comparable performance to your PC wth the new CPU?
Have you decided what is it that you want? Another core on the CPU? A new computer system?
Perhaps if you could answer these questions, we can help you actually solve your problem rather than deal with abstract philosophical problems.
Yes, I have come to a few conclusions and de-abstracted some of the philosophical questions:: I had it in a recent post above:
Yeah.... USD$150 for new RAM, one more HD, existing graphics card, "medium smooth playable" settings of latest PC games, that's alright on the singlecore AMD64 Venice OC'ed at 2.15ghz. WinXP2pro. Scanning and printing off the PC (mainly tons of old/new important documents of the family scanned and copied etc.)
USD$800 for Mac Mini IntelCore2Duo [mobile] -- dualcore(!!) 1gb RAM, 100gb 5400rpm HD, running Torrents and beautiful iLife and Mac OS 10.4 Tiger and maybe in 6 months USD$129 for Leopard 10.5.x
I can have my cake, eat it, smear it all over my face, and lick the icing off my finger tips. YEAHHHHHHHH. That's it. Best of both worlds - dedicated GPU and games [PC], silent dualcore Torrent/ Web/ iLife/ Creative-ish/ Encoding/ Parallels/ Linux [Mac]... YEAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
And I get to use both on my Sony 17" 1280x1024. One VGA [PC] and one DVI input [Mac] -- although I probably need a KVM DVI+PS2+USB switcher, just one button on the KVM to flick between PC and Mac.
... now you're solving the problem. Great!...
Thanks to all of the comments here. 8) The key is I thought I needed dualcore to run a game and torrents at the same time. Adding the upgrades up for new CPU = new CPU + new motherboard + new RAM, and the ridiculous (I'm still pissed at AMD) cost for an Athlon X2 dualcore, even low-end, I realised that money could go towards a (OMFG dualcore) Mac Mini - and it's much better leaving the Mac Mini on all the time, rather than the PC tower noisy + energygobbling.
So - Mac Mini for overall tasks. PC becomes mainly a gaming machine, because, I've tolerated Windows as much as I can but would prefer the PC ONLY FOR GAMING, not anything else. So just another 1GB RAM to bring it to 2GB, and another HD for RAID0 2x80gb for fast loading of games/ textures/ levels/ etc.
Upgrading PC GPUs are a bit of a zero-sum game, your graphics are always *not* as pretty as it really could be. If I look and feel and think carefully, the 6600GT gives a decent enough visual experience to enjoy the "meat" and "cinematic experience" of the game, as I have played through HL2, HL2:Episode1 with HDR, FEAR, and BattleforMiddleEarth:2. Command&Conquer3 should be pretty cool at my "medium" settings. Ditto for NeedForSpeed:Carbon. Quality overall better than PS2 and Wii and Xbox, about as good as current or slightly older Xbox360. PS3 is just ridiculously priced at this stage for most intents and purposes.
If you like to play games designed for outdated hardware (as is the case for the game consoles), you don't need to upgrade the PC either.
State-of-the-art is a moving target and if that is what you like, you need to upgrade often.
Yes, good point, see above, I "searched my soul" and came to the conclusion:
Upgrading PC GPUs are a bit of a zero-sum game, your graphics are always *not* as pretty as it really could be. If I look and feel and think carefully, the 6600GT gives a decent enough visual experience to enjoy the "meat" and "cinematic experience" of the game, as I have played through HL2, HL2:Episode1 with HDR, FEAR, and BattleforMiddleEarth:2. Command&Conquer3 should be pretty cool at my "medium" settings. Ditto for NeedForSpeed:Carbon. Quality overall better than PS2 and Wii and Xbox, about as good as current or slightly older Xbox360. PS3 is just ridiculously priced at this stage for most intents and purposes.
<tries to jam 2GB RAM in my 1.75 year old Mac Mini> NO LUCK!
<Does same to 3 year old PC> _ Success
<Tries to add NV6k-series (fine for the limited gaming I do) to the Mini> Nope!
<same PC> DONE!
Rince and repeate for a DVD burner, sound card, FW card, 2nd third and fourth hard disks and more...
My PC is a low end Presario, ~300 new and it does a lot upgrade-wise...and everyone knows you should only upgrade procs when you change MOBOs and get the matching generation of each for maximum preformance (fastest available buses, I/O and so on)
I have to say though, your low-end Presario, what is it? Pentium3? Pentium4? Shithouse CPU, mate. Your 3 year old CPU can take 2GB RAM, a RAID HD setup, and nVidia 6k-series, Creative 7.1 surround but because of your crappy CPU those upgrades aren't worth the money. You'd honestly be better off buying a recent Dell. I'm open to discussing this point further. A 3-year old PC can take such upgrades you mentioned. But in terms of multitasking and making the most of those upgrades, you will be facing *severe* CPU-limitations in running the programs/ games you want which the upgrades were supposed to enable.
This was my main thrust in my original post. Comparing to Macs complicates the issue. So let's take the Macs out of the equations. I would say within 2 years upgrade options for PCs are worthwhile. 3+ years, one is better off eBaying the old PC for residual value, and getting a new Dell or HP.
I have to say though, your low-end Presario, what is it? Pentium3? Pentium4? Shithouse CPU, mate. Your 3 year old CPU can take 2GB RAM, a RAID HD setup, and nVidia 6k-series, Creative 7.1 surround but because of your crappy CPU those upgrades aren't worth the money. You'd honestly be better off buying a recent Dell. I'm open to discussing this point further. A 3-year old PC can take such upgrades you mentioned. But in terms of multitasking and making the most of those upgrades, you will be facing *severe* CPU-limitations in running the programs/ games you want which the upgrades were supposed to enable.
This was my main thrust in my original post. Comparing to Macs complicates the issue. So let's take the Macs out of the equations. I would say within 2 years upgrade options for PCs are worthwhile. 3+ years, one is better off eBaying the old PC for residual value, and getting a new Dell or HP.
As a matter of fact, I have an AMD 1800, good for when I got it, it has an N-Force 2 mainboard, and it happens that I have not bought a part for this unit retail...people give me their old boxen when I was a student, saying "it is broke, I replaced it, if you can use it as a whole or for parts do it" I got a gig of ram that way, I got an extra HDD that way, I bought the vid card off a bud who upgraded to a PCI-E setup and had no use for the AGP card as he had given the MoBo to someone else...I offered him $20 for it and he accepted...
I was a college student...I was driving a crappy car held together because a bud happens to be a mechanic who could help with it, I was scrimping...I did what it took to get decent hardware...and for the record, I am planning to buy a nice system complete with big display in the spring of '07, after I pay off debts and can buy it cash on the barrel.
Two years ago I racked up $5000 in credit card debts buying the latest Macs (obsessive behaviour now "medically" attributed to my bipolar manic phases). After some tax refunds I got my AMD64 rig in mid-2005, and from mid-2005-mid-2006, it was something worthwhile to tinker around with while the other times I would be clinically depressed and completely dependent on my parents.
I have just started to get some "allowance" money (disability social security) so I am looking at options down the line as I perhaps start to get back to work, or look at things that would help my mental state. Upgrading PC for gaming is not as frivolous as it may be, it helps de-stress, and getting a Mac can be very useful in sorting out day-to-day affairs, not be bogged down by the negative aspects of Windows, and hopefully staying in touch with Tech may lead to a Mac/PC -related job/ some work/ volunteering down the line, whether I continue to be on some disability payments or not. I have interviewed in the past two years for various web design/ interactive media tutoring/ pc component business/ mac reseller shop jobs...
I have never owned a car and have taken public/school bus transport most of my life since high school... Recently borrowing my parents' car and aunt's car where needed, still very dependent financially on my parents.
I have been for the past four months mainly using a Pentium-4-laptop 2ghz that my cousin has lent me, 1024x768 screen, and no games whatsoever for about 4 months now... At least I have a computer and broadband luckily as long as I need while I am in Australia, thanks to my aunt and cousin. I use my parents' iBook G4 when needed to back up their stuff, upgrade software, and just enjoy a bit of OSX now and then.
I empathise with your situation....Ok, take care, alright?