Where's the confusion? The iMac isn't packing all the internals into a tiny rectangular enclosure. There's room in the dome of the iMac and room on the motherboard for more than one slot. Not the case for the PowerBook. I disagree with the certainty you have that the next revision will add another slot. Extremely unlikely; this would require a new motherboard and some serious reworkings of the arrangment of the components, among other issues.
You migh be right, but if they had to install the 128 chip due to space concerns they could at least switch it for a 256. I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure there is very little size difference between a 128 and 256 meg so dimm.
The confusion is due to the fact that the 12" Al is labeled as a pro machine and the imac is a consumer product. IMO every feature (including ram capasity) offered in any consumer machine should be present, if not improvied upon, in all of the professional products. This is not the case when comparing the imac and 12" AlBook.
This is just one of the many reasons that the 12" PowerBook isn't living up to its name. It's really more of an iBook than a PowerBook. I guess the G4 makes it a PowerBook, but jeez. I look at some of the features and omissions on that thing, this included, and I'm kind of offended.
The 12" does lack some pro features, notably the RAM capacity and the lack of L3 cache. I think 256MB on the motherboard is completely possible and should have been the case with rev A. I think it's reasonable to hope for this in rev B.
To be honest, I think any pro machine should have at least 512MB memory. Few people who consider themselves in need of a pro machine will have anything less. Unfortunately, in the case of the 12" this would raise the price dramatically considering what Apple charges for memory.
Folks, you are expecting way too much from an iBook. Yes, I know it is called a PowerBook, but that is nothing more than semantics. It is the G4 iBook which Apple refuses to acknowledge. Buy one of the new books and enjoy. Just understand what you're buying. It is an $1800 iBook that should have been released and branded as an iBook over a year ago.
They may have been better off calling it an iBook then. RAM limitation I understand; lack of L3 cache I do not. Doesn't sound like too much to ask considering every G4 processor is accompanied by L3 cache in the Pro line except for the 12". It may not be and issue if they had just stuck white plastic on the thing and called in an iBook. Yeah it's semantics, but there's a bit more behind it than just that.
Is 640MB of RAM really a limitation? It's still middle of the pack in the wider world of noteboo computers. Untill last year many machines still MAxxed at 512, and even now many machines still maxx between 512-768, with a lot more 1GB models. The 12 is now mid pack on maxx ram, but it is kinda stupid to solder 128, they ought to just solder in 256 to avoid the hassle later on. I doubt there's too much performance differnce between a 640MB machine and a 768 MB machine, especially not in subenotey type tasks. Traditionally Apple quotes their maxx RAM spec as a function of the laregst available module time the number of available modules. Unlike SDR so-dimms, there WILL be 1GB and mebbe even 1.5GB DDR so-dimms. While a 1GB so-dimm will be insanely expensive for a few months, prices will come down and the truly RAM crazy will be able to drop more RAM into their machines. All over the fora from AI and MacNN there are people comfortable using way more RAM than initially quote by Apple as the max for a given machine, iMacs, iBooks, Pismos. It shouldn't be a problem. But it is an annoyance.
If you must complain, complain about things that need complaining: the woeful desktop offerings, the lack of a proper expandable/upgradable/headless consumer machine, the obscene prices of all mac desktops (generall), idiotic dead pixel policies and very stingy and expensive AppleCare (for PB's at least) The RAM limits of a sub-note are really inconsequential.
A for the the L3, it may be a heat thing. Apple still doesn't have a .13u G4 DAMN YOU MOTOROLA, DAMN YOU TO HELL!, but anyway, they still have to squeeze a .18u G4 into that machine and keep respectable heat and power characteristics.
We know from some posted web dissections of the baby PB that it uses the 7445 NOT the 7455. This chip is smaller because it has no facility for any L3 at all and thus it should run cooler and drain less power. Reports on the net are spotty, ost people say it isn't really any hotter than an iBook and certainly not hotter than any TiBooks, but some people claim it's uncomfortable. I'll tell you when I get the machine. In any event, it sports the same battery life as an iBook despite having a hotter/hungrier CPU. The lack of L3 probably comes from heat/space/consumption considerations, and of course PRICE, because despite their recent efforts Steve and co are still terminally cheap bastards.
<strong>Is 640MB of RAM really a limitation? It's still middle of the pack in the wider world of noteboo computers. Untill last year many machines still MAxxed at 512, and even now many machines still maxx between 512-768, with a lot more 1GB models. The 12 is now mid pack on maxx ram, but it is kinda stupid to solder 128, they ought to just solder in 256 to avoid the hassle later on. I doubt there's too much performance differnce between a 640MB machine and a 768 MB machine, especially not in subenotey type tasks. Traditionally Apple quotes their maxx RAM spec as a function of the laregst available module time the number of available modules. Unlike SDR so-dimms, there WILL be 1GB and mebbe even 1.5GB DDR so-dimms. While a 1GB so-dimm will be insanely expensive for a few months, prices will come down and the truly RAM crazy will be able to drop more RAM into their machines. All over the fora from AI and MacNN there are people comfortable using way more RAM than initially quote by Apple as the max for a given machine, iMacs, iBooks, Pismos. It shouldn't be a problem. But it is an annoyance.
You couldn't do it, could you, Matsu? You made it through nearly a whole post without bashing Apple. You sounded downright satisfied with the powerbook situation for while! <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" /> Soon, Matsu, you'll be able to post without so much vitriol.
Damn it, Apple, get the man his Apple fix so he can become one of us!!
<strong>This is just one of the many reasons that the 12" PowerBook isn't living up to its name. It's really more of an iBook than a PowerBook. I guess the G4 makes it a PowerBook, but jeez. I look at some of the features and omissions on that thing, this included, and I'm kind of offended.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmmm, your offended?
G4 Processor, video spanning, internal Superdrive, internal Bluetooth, internal 802.11g, 4 hours of battery life, wrapped in beautiful and extremely protective aluminum?
IN A 4.5 POUND PACKAGE SMALLER THAN THE IBOOK IN EVERY DIMENSION!!!!!!!!
forgot about DDR... massive hard drive, all industry leading... The only OMMISSION I can think of is the DVI port, but damn, there is only so much room in that little case.
And dont even think of backlit keyboard adn DDR333 as ommisions because they showed up in the 17" model because NO OTHER small form factor laptop uses DDR at all, they all still use SDR and PIII processors...
[MOD EDIT]: Deleted personal insult. You want to back up your opinion with facts, that's fine. Drop the personal attacks though (especially towards a moderator). Sheesh.
Damn it, Apple, get the man his Apple fix so he can become one of us!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wednesday, they say Wednesday, but it may be Thursday before I can go over and pick it up. I will post a detailed review when it arrives, complete with pictures. Mebbe even a real time unvieling. I've got this cheapie 2MP camera that was given to me as a promo for a conference I went to, that was cool. Anyway, I can post some pics, but I don't have a cheap (as in free) online host yet. Recomendations? Also, if you want something tested (I have exactly no mac software yet) you'll need to point me to the appropriate sources (for evaluation only natch )
Stuff I need to track down: VPC6, M$ Office, Photoshop and Illustrator. I plan to pay for them eventually, especially since my edu prices for M$ Office and illustrator are very reasonable, but I'm going to try out photoshop and VPC first to if they're worth it.
Now I just need a good digital Camera, I'm waiting for Fuji to release a 6MP successor to the F602z before I pounce. For now, I'll use my very nice 17" CRT for dual display.
I've got a spare 802.11b USB dongle I can use for wireless untill I spring for airport, I didn't BTO it because I wanted the order ASAP, I'll probably order it when I go to pick up the PB12.
I agree with Matsu, 640MB isn't that much of a drawback on a sub-notebook: it's not like you're going to sit there working on huge Illustrator files or running gigantic databases on one, and the RAM overhead in presentations, Quicktime movies, DVDs, music, surfing and word processing isn't huge.
Hell, I have 1.5GB in my Cube and the most I've ever seen actually being active was around 800MB when it was playing with some really big CGI models: most of the time the memory's just sitting there for the OS to use for swapspace. Doesn't crash, mind you...
Photoshop I find indispensable, having finally sprung for it: okay, I still use GraphicConverter for quick jobs, but the power of the 'shop is phenomenal.
I'm just saying that the 12" PowerBook has more in common with an iBook than its PowerBook brethren. DDR memory and a G4 and monitor video spanning. Ok, I guess that makes it a PowerBook. The idea of it being smaller than the iBook... well, it is a tad smaller. Hardly noticeable.
But the machine doesn't come with DVI out. I can't remember the last time I saw a VGA connector. They soldered memory onto the motherboard. Well, that pretty much shoots yourself in the foot in terms of giving the user the advantage in maximizing the upgrade capabilities of the machine. I expect that to happen on a consumer notebook, but not in their professional line. You can say 640MB is fine, but I mean, and it is terribly cliché to say it, but, "Nobody will ever need more than 512k..."
Is it really that big of a deal to not solder the memory on the board, put a DVI port on the thing, and pop a 1GHz G4 in there like the other two PowerBooks? Of the three PowerBooks, it is the one that sticks out like a sore thumb.
But hey, I don't lose sleep over it. I'm sure Apple will remedy these issues. I'm just a bit shocked that they omitted a handful of "Power" features from a laptop in their "Power" line.
(and I have no idea what personal insults Murbot deleted of yours. I'm sure I don't need to remind you to go read the posting guidelines.)
I think it is really such an issue with most people because the 12" PowerBook is placed right next to the 15" and 17" models, both of which have no memory soldered and have a much larger maximum capacity. *shrugs*
I'm not buying a new laptop anytime soon. When I do buy a new machine, I expect to keep it for over two years until the next upgrade. I'd like to know I had the security to take my machine past 640MB if I needed to in a year or so.
[quote]But the machine doesn't come with DVI out. I can't remember the last time I saw a VGA connector.<hr></blockquote>
are you kidding? where do you work that you all have DVI connectors? sorry, but i work with machines all day, i've yet to see a single native DVI, and only two machines that were analog with DVI connectors.
i mean, it's nice to have DVI on my laptop here, but i've never used it yet. VGA all the time though.
All of my displays have native DVI connectors on them. Seeing as how the other two PowerBooks have DVI connectors as well, you'd kind of expect the 12" to follow suit.
I think more RAM won't be an issue: when 1GB so-dimms arrive, apple history suggests that at the very least a few companies will make stick that work. They probably be as expensive as heck, but you'll then have 1152MB, which seems like plenty, of course the other PB's will then maxx at 2GB, but still, there's some headroom. I've even read talk of 1.5GB so-dimms though I can't imagine how much those would cost.
Comments
<strong>
Where's the confusion? The iMac isn't packing all the internals into a tiny rectangular enclosure. There's room in the dome of the iMac and room on the motherboard for more than one slot. Not the case for the PowerBook. I disagree with the certainty you have that the next revision will add another slot. Extremely unlikely; this would require a new motherboard and some serious reworkings of the arrangment of the components, among other issues.
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: FrostyMMB ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
You migh be right, but if they had to install the 128 chip due to space concerns they could at least switch it for a 256. I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure there is very little size difference between a 128 and 256 meg so dimm.
The confusion is due to the fact that the 12" Al is labeled as a pro machine and the imac is a consumer product. IMO every feature (including ram capasity) offered in any consumer machine should be present, if not improvied upon, in all of the professional products. This is not the case when comparing the imac and 12" AlBook.
To be honest, I think any pro machine should have at least 512MB memory. Few people who consider themselves in need of a pro machine will have anything less. Unfortunately, in the case of the 12" this would raise the price dramatically considering what Apple charges for memory.
If you must complain, complain about things that need complaining: the woeful desktop offerings, the lack of a proper expandable/upgradable/headless consumer machine, the obscene prices of all mac desktops (generall), idiotic dead pixel policies and very stingy and expensive AppleCare (for PB's at least) The RAM limits of a sub-note are really inconsequential.
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
We know from some posted web dissections of the baby PB that it uses the 7445 NOT the 7455. This chip is smaller because it has no facility for any L3 at all and thus it should run cooler and drain less power. Reports on the net are spotty, ost people say it isn't really any hotter than an iBook and certainly not hotter than any TiBooks, but some people claim it's uncomfortable. I'll tell you when I get the machine. In any event, it sports the same battery life as an iBook despite having a hotter/hungrier CPU. The lack of L3 probably comes from heat/space/consumption considerations, and of course PRICE, because despite their recent efforts Steve and co are still terminally cheap bastards.
<strong>Is 640MB of RAM really a limitation? It's still middle of the pack in the wider world of noteboo computers. Untill last year many machines still MAxxed at 512, and even now many machines still maxx between 512-768, with a lot more 1GB models. The 12 is now mid pack on maxx ram, but it is kinda stupid to solder 128, they ought to just solder in 256 to avoid the hassle later on. I doubt there's too much performance differnce between a 640MB machine and a 768 MB machine, especially not in subenotey type tasks. Traditionally Apple quotes their maxx RAM spec as a function of the laregst available module time the number of available modules. Unlike SDR so-dimms, there WILL be 1GB and mebbe even 1.5GB DDR so-dimms. While a 1GB so-dimm will be insanely expensive for a few months, prices will come down and the truly RAM crazy will be able to drop more RAM into their machines. All over the fora from AI and MacNN there are people comfortable using way more RAM than initially quote by Apple as the max for a given machine, iMacs, iBooks, Pismos. It shouldn't be a problem. But it is an annoyance.
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: Matsu ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
You couldn't do it, could you, Matsu? You made it through nearly a whole post without bashing Apple. You sounded downright satisfied with the powerbook situation for while! <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" /> Soon, Matsu, you'll be able to post without so much vitriol.
Damn it, Apple, get the man his Apple fix so he can become one of us!!
<strong>This is just one of the many reasons that the 12" PowerBook isn't living up to its name. It's really more of an iBook than a PowerBook. I guess the G4 makes it a PowerBook, but jeez. I look at some of the features and omissions on that thing, this included, and I'm kind of offended.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmmm, your offended?
G4 Processor, video spanning, internal Superdrive, internal Bluetooth, internal 802.11g, 4 hours of battery life, wrapped in beautiful and extremely protective aluminum?
IN A 4.5 POUND PACKAGE SMALLER THAN THE IBOOK IN EVERY DIMENSION!!!!!!!!
forgot about DDR... massive hard drive, all industry leading... The only OMMISSION I can think of is the DVI port, but damn, there is only so much room in that little case.
And dont even think of backlit keyboard adn DDR333 as ommisions because they showed up in the 17" model because NO OTHER small form factor laptop uses DDR at all, they all still use SDR and PIII processors...
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: I-bent-my-wookie ]
[MOD EDIT]: Deleted personal insult. You want to back up your opinion with facts, that's fine. Drop the personal attacks though (especially towards a moderator). Sheesh.
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
<strong>
Damn it, Apple, get the man his Apple fix so he can become one of us!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wednesday, they say Wednesday, but it may be Thursday before I can go over and pick it up. I will post a detailed review when it arrives, complete with pictures. Mebbe even a real time unvieling. I've got this cheapie 2MP camera that was given to me as a promo for a conference I went to, that was cool. Anyway, I can post some pics, but I don't have a cheap (as in free) online host yet. Recomendations? Also, if you want something tested (I have exactly no mac software yet) you'll need to point me to the appropriate sources (for evaluation only natch
Stuff I need to track down: VPC6, M$ Office, Photoshop and Illustrator. I plan to pay for them eventually, especially since my edu prices for M$ Office and illustrator are very reasonable, but I'm going to try out photoshop and VPC first to if they're worth it.
Now I just need a good digital Camera, I'm waiting for Fuji to release a 6MP successor to the F602z before I pounce. For now, I'll use my very nice 17" CRT for dual display.
I've got a spare 802.11b USB dongle I can use for wireless untill I spring for airport, I didn't BTO it because I wanted the order ASAP, I'll probably order it when I go to pick up the PB12.
Hell, I have 1.5GB in my Cube and the most I've ever seen actually being active was around 800MB when it was playing with some really big CGI models: most of the time the memory's just sitting there for the OS to use for swapspace. Doesn't crash, mind you...
Photoshop I find indispensable, having finally sprung for it: okay, I still use GraphicConverter for quick jobs, but the power of the 'shop is phenomenal.
<strong>
blah blah blah
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't lose sleep over it.
I'm just saying that the 12" PowerBook has more in common with an iBook than its PowerBook brethren. DDR memory and a G4 and monitor video spanning. Ok, I guess that makes it a PowerBook. The idea of it being smaller than the iBook... well, it is a tad smaller. Hardly noticeable.
But the machine doesn't come with DVI out. I can't remember the last time I saw a VGA connector. They soldered memory onto the motherboard. Well, that pretty much shoots yourself in the foot in terms of giving the user the advantage in maximizing the upgrade capabilities of the machine. I expect that to happen on a consumer notebook, but not in their professional line. You can say 640MB is fine, but I mean, and it is terribly cliché to say it, but, "Nobody will ever need more than 512k..."
Is it really that big of a deal to not solder the memory on the board, put a DVI port on the thing, and pop a 1GHz G4 in there like the other two PowerBooks? Of the three PowerBooks, it is the one that sticks out like a sore thumb.
But hey, I don't lose sleep over it. I'm sure Apple will remedy these issues. I'm just a bit shocked that they omitted a handful of "Power" features from a laptop in their "Power" line.
(and I have no idea what personal insults Murbot deleted of yours. I'm sure I don't need to remind you to go read the posting guidelines.)
I think it is really such an issue with most people because the 12" PowerBook is placed right next to the 15" and 17" models, both of which have no memory soldered and have a much larger maximum capacity. *shrugs*
I'm not buying a new laptop anytime soon. When I do buy a new machine, I expect to keep it for over two years until the next upgrade. I'd like to know I had the security to take my machine past 640MB if I needed to in a year or so.
are you kidding? where do you work that you all have DVI connectors? sorry, but i work with machines all day, i've yet to see a single native DVI, and only two machines that were analog with DVI connectors.
i mean, it's nice to have DVI on my laptop here, but i've never used it yet. VGA all the time though.
for a truly portable laptop (not desktop replacement) i would say that VGA is a much better choice.