Excuse me? I quoted the ENTIRE bleeding paragraph so the context was there. Which you accuse me of taking your statement out of context in the next sentence.
You quoted the paragraph, but just kept referring to part of the fist sentence, and not the whole thing. It wasn't just about maya or any application in particular. It was just a group of examples, and you made it out like I wanted the feature just for one thing. Me.
THis has been going on for so long now there is a thread of good examples, but you keep saying it's all about maya. It isn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
]So your position is that because you can't run Maya on a slate that it is too limited for general use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker
That is why I don't have one, or a MacBook Pro, and still rely on PowerMac and a wacom to do everything. Adding an onscreen keyboard to a slate just wont work in Maya, or any art application that well.#1 it takes up a part of my screen, and if you remember the reason for the big screen from Apple was primarily for artists using our types of applications.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
]You don't mention the MBP in any other context except in the sentence that complains a slate is too limited and this is why you still rely on a PowerMac for Maya (everything presumably includes Maya since you mention that next). There's no reason that you can't attach a wacom to the MBP. Essentially that's what I do when I attach the Cintiq. I can't read your mind to guess that the only reason you don't buy a MBP is because you're waiting for a convertible.
Which wouldn't work for you anyway if you believe what you just wrote (see below).
I do keep mentioning it because it would be one of two items to carry around, and I refuse to carry another item around. That's why I don't have one.
You keep bringing up the Cintiq (which I have addressed in other ways) by saying it's just one more thing we would have to carry around if we wanted the full functionality of a tablet, and laptop.
I don't see myself walking outside on my lunch-break with my MBP, and my wacom, or any combination of two items) to do a little sketching in the sun, and then go back in and write a paper with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
I addressed the onscreen keyboard limitation for Maya and art applications with the discussion of the Cintiq + SpaceNavigator providing sufficient input where the need for a keyboard is far less in a previous post. You simply repeated your assertion that you can't do art apps without a keyboard. Do I REALLY need to repeat myself if you aren't going to bother accepting that other artists like working with a Cintiq (essentially a big slate attached to a PC) and can get a lot done without a keyboard? Which I did anyway in that post...in any case an onscreen keyboard (with tranparency) doesn't impact you that much given that its only on screen when you need to type something anyway.
I see the Cintiq in action every day, and I like it, but I would like it better if it wasn't limited to being just a slate. Any wacom will do the same stuff other than work directly on screen, but at the end of the session we would still need to type, and there other people to think about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
If you didn't intend to include the MBP in that sentence...cool...but in that context it sure makes you look too demanding to be satisfied regardless of how slate technology improves.
How are they going to improve an item that lays flat? Prop it up? Then I type on screen? With my hands arched back? OR>>> get another keyboard. Not my idea of a good time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
You took ONE sentence out of the entire post out (ooh...in its entierty) and then complain that I didn't address your other points when I go on to reiterate that I can use the Cintiq again with a MBP? That the keyboard is helpful but not always required in the workflow?
"Not always" are the key words here.
If they are not always necessary then we get rid of them all together? There are more things to do in more fields than art that can use a Tablet, and for many the keyboard is going to be faster than speech or, gesture recognition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
I dissected a sentence? Please, the context was there for all to see. If I got it wrong its not like there wasn't the context to show your true meaning. At BEST your paragraph was poorly worded.
Yes, bizzarely ironic. Would you prefer stupidly ironic? You whine about something I did while at the same time do it even more...
Please keep your insults off the board. And get a better grip on the meaning of irony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
The limitation is that the software EXPECTS you to have a keyboard attached and therefore does not provide alternative methods to access commonly used functions. Even there, with enough programmable keys this isn't as big a deal. The only time you NEED a keyboard is lots of text entry OR the UI designer has specifically designed the workflow to require it.
THAT'S how its limited. The UI design does not provide the alternative methods of input (gestures, better tool layout, etc) but relies on keypresses. That impacts your workflow when you don't have a keyboard but its not a requirement on the task itself...art vs writing a paper.
Software doesn't expect anything, are you kidding?
Software does what it's written to do. If you write the software for a tablet a smart developer would write it initially for use with no keys. Add the keyboard as an alternative option after your done making sure everything workds withiout one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
If you're writing a paper then a pen interface kinda sucks unless you hate typing. It still sucks because handwriting recognition is still so-so.
Yes, and try using the digitizer in laptop mode with a fliptop. You can but its typically awkward ESPECIALLY if you're depending on pressure to determine line width. Even just normal use of the digitizer is awkward as you tend to tip the laptop a bit and its in an upright position. Hmm...perhaps some might hinge so you can essentially lay the tablet out flat but the screen part is usually much thinner than the rest of the machine.
In tablet mode the keyboard is typically hidden.
So essentially the keyboard is still not quickly available in tablet mode for art work. The USB keyboard is actually better in that regard if you have an easel case. If the keyboard is so essential to your wacom workflow the convertible tablet is not the answer.
And you don't lug the dock around. You have one at your office and one at home. In mobile mode you still have capability but much less than docked. Less HD space (unless you can see a NAS), poorer graphics, fewer input devices, smaller screen, etc.
Essentially that's what I do with the MBP and many folks do with their laptops aready. They dock and use a normal keyboard and mouse with a larger screen.
Vinea
The rest is speaking for itself. I'm done answering you vinea.
THis has been going on for so long now there is a thread of good examples, but you keep saying it's all about maya. It isn't.
Maya is simply the example you brought up. Insert photoshop, photo editing or whatever artistic program if you prefer.
Quote:
I do keep mentioning it because it would be one of two items to carry around, and I refuse to carry another item around. That's why I don't have one.
And if the slate is built into a notebook? Then its only two pieces when you want it to be two pieces and one piece when its together.
Quote:
How are they going to improve an item that lays flat? Prop it up? Then I type on screen? With my hands arched back? OR>>> get another keyboard. Not my idea of a good time.
Or use the slate docked into your keyboard half...
Quote:
"Not always" are the key words here.
If they are not always necessary then we get rid of them all together? There are more things to do in more fields than art that can use a Tablet, and for many the keyboard is going to be faster than speech or, gesture recognition.
Sure, and for those you use a keyboard.
Quote:
Software doesn't expect anything, are you kidding?
Software does what it's written to do. If you write the software for a tablet a smart developer would write it initially for use with no keys. Add the keyboard as an alternative option after your done making sure everything workds withiout one.
You keep missing the point. The examples you provided were designed for having a keyboard HENCE a keyboard is required and using a slate is more awkward TODAY when using those programs.
You can write Maya, Photoshop, etc with a non-keyboard/mouse workflow in mind. The apps that would suffer are ones like Word, Keynote, Mail, etc that are written text centric but not all things are text centric. Art design programs are in that category.
For the other applications a keyboard would be required for good productivity.
But with a good slate design you'd have a keyboard when you wanted it and you could get at it with no more hassle than docking it to your slate case. It doesn't have to be carrying two things around...nor even were that the case is it the unholy burden you make it out to be.
Quote:
The rest is speaking for itself. I'm done answering you vinea.
Heh, you didn't think through how to use a keyboard and digitizer at the same time so you have no rebuttal.
But this multi-touch interface stuff is the next big thing, a paradigm shift in UI standards…
I look forward to Apple (partnering with Wacom) to introduce a line of slate tablets that are both multi-touch sensitive and able to use a stylus, with the accompanying multi-level pressure sensitivity & a new line of displays which also have the multi-touch interface and multi-level pressure sensitivity capabilities (plus an adjustable iSight)… I would expect them to also keep a line of 'regular' monitors for those not needing large multi-touch interface screens, or the price that would go with them…
Then I need Apple to work out the best way to take a stand-alone slate and, through the simple act of placing the slate into an attached dock, the slate becomes a secondary screen & input device for a larger system…
For me, that means my architectural clients carry a 13" slate to meetings and home, and then dock it with their Mac Pro workstation where it becomes a frontend controller for our ArchiOffice database. How this is going to work, I am not sure, but I want the documents tracked by the DB to appear on the main system screen of the host system… Anyone got any thoughts towards this?
For the main screens of the architectural workstations, I would love to go with a 'regular' 30" ACD mounted on a VESA arm, with an Apple-branded multi-touch interface enabled 21" Cintiq LCD in front of that. Give me a keyboard with ArchiCAD specific keys (a la FCP edit keyboards), a decent multi-button/scroll wheel optical mouse & a 6DOF puck in front of all that. Place the 13" slate & dock to the right of the Cintiq, with an iPhone (adapted to allow business VOIP telephone capabilities in the office, and revert to regular cell capabilities when out of the office) to the left… Said iPhone would also have the ability to serve as a broadband tether for the 13" slate outside of the office, if needed…
But this multi-touch interface stuff is the next big thing, a paradigm shift in UI standards…
I look forward to Apple (partnering with Wacom) to introduce a line of slate tablets that are both multi-touch sensitive and able to use a stylus, with the accompanying multi-level pressure sensitivity & a new line of displays which also have the multi-touch interface and multi-level pressure sensitivity capabilities (plus an adjustable iSight)… I would expect them to also keep a line of 'regular' monitors for those not needing large multi-touch interface screens, or the price that would go with them…
Then I need Apple to work out the best way to take a stand-alone slate and, through the simple act of placing the slate into an attached dock, the slate becomes a secondary screen & input device for a larger system…
For me, that means my architectural clients carry a 13" slate to meetings and home, and then dock it with their Mac Pro workstation where it becomes a frontend controller for our ArchiOffice database. How this is going to work, I am not sure, but I want the documents tracked by the DB to appear on the main system screen of the host system… Anyone got any thoughts towards this?
For the main screens of the architectural workstations, I would love to go with a 'regular' 30" ACD mounted on a VESA arm, with an Apple-branded multi-touch interface enabled 21" Cintiq LCD in front of that. Give me a keyboard with ArchiCAD specific keys (a la FCP edit keyboards), a decent multi-button/scroll wheel optical mouse & a 6DOF puck in front of all that. Place the 13" slate & dock to the right of the Cintiq, with an iPhone (adapted to allow business VOIP telephone capabilities in the office, and revert to regular cell capabilities when out of the office) to the left… Said iPhone would also have the ability to serve as a broadband tether for the 13" slate outside of the office, if needed…
Sweet…!
;^p
That's a serious setup. Expensive too.
I never addressed Apple partnering with wacom this whole thread because I don't think they will partner that much. Both would want to profit big from it with the ammount of technologies they both would have in it, and I think the end cost would be enormous. Wacom would have over 50% of the technology, and I'm pretty sure Apple is more interested in producing the whole package. I think Apple will more likely build on from what we already saw with the iPhone (Phone) interface. Touch, and pressure sensitivity will have to be done in a whole new way to escape paying for full licensing fee's from the patent holder(s).
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Heh, you didn't think through how to use a keyboard and digitizer at the same time so you have no rebuttal.
Whatever. Buh Bye.
Vinea
Looks like I have to do this. (didn't want to)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
If you're writing a paper then a pen interface kinda sucks unless you hate typing. It still sucks because handwriting recognition is still so-so.
Yes, and try using the digitizer in laptop mode with a fliptop. You can but its typically awkward ESPECIALLY if you're depending on pressure to determine line width. Even just normal use of the digitizer is awkward as you tend to tip the laptop a bit and its in an upright position. Hmm...perhaps some might hinge so you can essentially lay the tablet out flat but the screen part is usually much thinner than the rest of the machine.
In tablet mode the keyboard is typically hidden.
***So essentially the keyboard is still not quickly available in tablet mode for art work. The USB keyboard is actually better in that regard if you have an easel case. If the keyboard is so essential to your wacom workflow the convertible tablet is not the answer.***
And you don't lug the dock around. You have one at your office and one at home. In mobile mode you still have capability but much less than docked. Less HD space (unless you can see a NAS), poorer graphics, fewer input devices, smaller screen, etc.
Essentially that's what I do with the MBP and many folks do with their laptops aready. They dock and use a normal keyboard and mouse with a larger screen.
Vinea
Using the digitizer in laptop mode doesn't make any sense - at least to me? Your in laptop mode to use the regular laptop features. Maybe you could use an Apple Phone widget keypad on the screen to make a net to phone call or something, but using the digitizer while in laptop mode never entered my mind until you mentioned it. I'm not sure why I would want to. Could you explain more as to why I would need it while I was using the laptop?
***As for the comment I highlighted in stars. Turn it and close it. How hard is that? It's a one handed operation that takes about 3 seconds max if your slow.***
But this multi-touch interface stuff is the next big thing, a paradigm shift in UI standards?
Yes. We've been talking about gesture interfaces for a couple decades now. Between the FITR work at NYU, Apple's multitouch and a couple others we actually will see it in the nearish future.
Quote:
Then I need Apple to work out the best way to take a stand-alone slate and, through the simple act of placing the slate into an attached dock, the slate becomes a secondary screen & input device for a larger system?
For me, that means my architectural clients carry a 13" slate to meetings and home, and then dock it with their Mac Pro workstation where it becomes a frontend controller for our ArchiOffice database. How this is going to work, I am not sure, but I want the documents tracked by the DB to appear on the main system screen of the host system? Anyone got any thoughts towards this?
Possible today depending on your underlying database. If FileMaker Pro allows syncing of offline databases to the server that should work. Once sync'd the entries on the tablet should appear for everyone.
Quote:
For the main screens of the architectural workstations, I would love to go with a 'regular' 30" ACD mounted on a VESA arm, with an Apple-branded multi-touch interface enabled 21" Cintiq LCD in front of that. Give me a keyboard with ArchiCAD specific keys (a la FCP edit keyboards), a decent multi-button/scroll wheel optical mouse & a 6DOF puck in front of all that. Place the 13" slate & dock to the right of the Cintiq, with an iPhone (adapted to allow business VOIP telephone capabilities in the office, and revert to regular cell capabilities when out of the office) to the left? Said iPhone would also have the ability to serve as a broadband tether for the 13" slate outside of the office, if needed?
Sweet?!
;^p
I have a 30" ACD + 21" Cintiq + Space Navigator. I have a slate that docks but isn't tied into the workflow as I only use it for meetings. It is pretty sweet and the intent was to replicate as much of the StarFire workstation as was possible in 2005.
Using the digitizer in laptop mode doesn't make any sense - at least to me? Your in laptop mode to use the regular laptop features. Maybe you could use an Apple Phone widget keypad on the screen to make a net to phone call or something, but using the digitizer while in laptop mode never entered my mind until you mentioned it. I'm not sure why I would want to. Could you explain more as to why I would need it while I was using the laptop?
***As for the comment I highlighted in stars. Turn it and close it. How hard is that? It's a one handed operation that takes about 3 seconds max if your slow.***
T'was your comment that you must have a keyboard and digitizer to do work. You have both available to you with your powermac + wacom. You do not with a convertible tablet or slate.
Since many art workflows require more manipulation of art objects than typing text the limitation would only be because the designers of the software optimize the workflow with a keyboard/mouse. This is the objection many Maya users had with the Cintiq because of the need for 3 mouse buttons for panning zooming and rotation. But you can set the expresskeys on the Cintiq to replicate the pan/zoom and rotation capabilities.
I don't use Maya so I don't know if there are other parts of the workflow that uses the keyboard but if you have enough programmable keys you can avoid the need for the keyboard for most things.
Maya is simply an example...pick any program and I suspect that most UI designers assume the presence of 3 mouse buttons (sometimes scroll wheel to boot) and keyboard. There is functionality that is often crippled/unavailable/really hard to get to if a keyboard or mouse are missing. Like one program I had were you could ONLY zoom with the scroll wheel or page up/dn (or some other mapped keys) or holding the control key and moving the mouse. The UI designer offered 3 different methods to achieve zoom...
Well gee...on a slate or convertible in tablet mode none of those methods work well do they? You're missing keyboard and usually some mouse buttons.
They are still missing in a convertible. Turning the screen and flipping it MAY only take 3 seconds but you're interrupting your workflow to do so, and you still have to find the key and hit it, then flip back. Try that if you need to HOLD down a key and interact with the pen at the same time.
You do have access with a hybrid slate/laptop that docks together or can be used seperate. When I use a keyboard with the cintiq it can sit in front of the screen but often I stick it off to the side and only use a few keys here and there or occasionally type a sentence or something. I prefer the drawing surface directly in front of me, close when I'm interacting with the pen.
A MBP with Wacom tablet works as well. You have full access to both interaction methods. Something you do not have with a convertible. That's worth the horrific hassle of carrying around a flat 4x6 Intous to work in your hotel room...even if you have a Wacom digitizer built into the display (although the need is certainly far less than with a MBP). At least until UI designers better for anything other than keyboard+mouse.
Pure slate and pure convertible are both compromises. Docked slate to laptop body much less so.
vinea, without quoting everything here I'll better explain. It's not all used completely at once. THere is more than one app involved, and while making changes in a Maya texture with another application maya will update while I paint. Maya. Zbrush, Photoshop, and painter are all in a part of my pipeline. Zbrush, Photoshop, and painter are mostly for texturing and various mapping. WIth a tablet I would be able to maintain continue working, while off on weekends at night, or even while camping, or anywhere really. I'd be able to bring it to my GF's house, (or where ever) and do some work while she is sleeping. Believe me. it wouldn't effect my workflow to switch to laptop for ZBrush, Maya, or Vue.
Anyway I've read what you said, and your entitled to your opinion like anyone else, but I know what I need better than anyone else.
In any case if you really are going camping with a laptop I recommend the Toughbook. One of my excursions with a MBP to the great outdoors almost turned into a $2500+ oopsie. As is there's a nice dent in it too but that's a different outing.
Just be aware the thing is heavy and small. Sub-optimal for anywhere indoors.
I don't think Wacom makes anything like this (multi-touch screen), so I can't imagine why one would want Apple to partner with them on it.
I think he would like underlying wacom features in a multi-touch environment which sounds cool as tool, but I think Apple can (or apple thinks they can) work out their own interface that will work just as good, but actually better. After seeing what they did with the iPhone who could doubt it?
Think sleeker cinema displays that are touch sensitive iMacs, that have a steeper angle, like a drafting table.
(But not portable).
The only thing about Apple's multitouch is that it isn't stylus friendly if I read the reports correctly. Can't find the interview again but I remember reading you have to use a finger and not gloved. Implies skin resistance tech of some kind it true.
On screen virtual keyboard, pinching, zooming desktops, realtime interaction with 3D objects.
What makes you think this isn't coming to Macs this year?
Think sleeker cinema displays that are touch sensitive iMacs, that have a steeper angle, like a drafting table.
(But not portable).
Years ago there was a device called the Clio that took the form of a subnotebook convertible tablet. It looked good and much sturdier than the swivel laptops that seem to be popular now and had the ability to set the screen at the angle you are describing. I always thought that Apple should take that form factor. It was updated and looks atrocious now.
Comments
Excuse me? I quoted the ENTIRE bleeding paragraph so the context was there. Which you accuse me of taking your statement out of context in the next sentence.
You quoted the paragraph, but just kept referring to part of the fist sentence, and not the whole thing. It wasn't just about maya or any application in particular. It was just a group of examples, and you made it out like I wanted the feature just for one thing. Me.
THis has been going on for so long now there is a thread of good examples, but you keep saying it's all about maya. It isn't.
]So your position is that because you can't run Maya on a slate that it is too limited for general use?
That is why I don't have one, or a MacBook Pro, and still rely on PowerMac and a wacom to do everything. Adding an onscreen keyboard to a slate just wont work in Maya, or any art application that well. #1 it takes up a part of my screen, and if you remember the reason for the big screen from Apple was primarily for artists using our types of applications.
]You don't mention the MBP in any other context except in the sentence that complains a slate is too limited and this is why you still rely on a PowerMac for Maya (everything presumably includes Maya since you mention that next). There's no reason that you can't attach a wacom to the MBP. Essentially that's what I do when I attach the Cintiq. I can't read your mind to guess that the only reason you don't buy a MBP is because you're waiting for a convertible.
Which wouldn't work for you anyway if you believe what you just wrote (see below).
I do keep mentioning it because it would be one of two items to carry around, and I refuse to carry another item around. That's why I don't have one.
You keep bringing up the Cintiq (which I have addressed in other ways) by saying it's just one more thing we would have to carry around if we wanted the full functionality of a tablet, and laptop.
I don't see myself walking outside on my lunch-break with my MBP, and my wacom, or any combination of two items) to do a little sketching in the sun, and then go back in and write a paper with it.
I addressed the onscreen keyboard limitation for Maya and art applications with the discussion of the Cintiq + SpaceNavigator providing sufficient input where the need for a keyboard is far less in a previous post. You simply repeated your assertion that you can't do art apps without a keyboard. Do I REALLY need to repeat myself if you aren't going to bother accepting that other artists like working with a Cintiq (essentially a big slate attached to a PC) and can get a lot done without a keyboard? Which I did anyway in that post...in any case an onscreen keyboard (with tranparency) doesn't impact you that much given that its only on screen when you need to type something anyway.
I see the Cintiq in action every day, and I like it, but I would like it better if it wasn't limited to being just a slate. Any wacom will do the same stuff other than work directly on screen, but at the end of the session we would still need to type, and there other people to think about.
If you didn't intend to include the MBP in that sentence...cool...but in that context it sure makes you look too demanding to be satisfied regardless of how slate technology improves.
How are they going to improve an item that lays flat? Prop it up? Then I type on screen? With my hands arched back? OR>>> get another keyboard. Not my idea of a good time.
You took ONE sentence out of the entire post out (ooh...in its entierty) and then complain that I didn't address your other points when I go on to reiterate that I can use the Cintiq again with a MBP? That the keyboard is helpful but not always required in the workflow?
"Not always" are the key words here.
If they are not always necessary then we get rid of them all together? There are more things to do in more fields than art that can use a Tablet, and for many the keyboard is going to be faster than speech or, gesture recognition.
I dissected a sentence? Please, the context was there for all to see. If I got it wrong its not like there wasn't the context to show your true meaning. At BEST your paragraph was poorly worded.
Yes, bizzarely ironic. Would you prefer stupidly ironic? You whine about something I did while at the same time do it even more...
Please keep your insults off the board. And get a better grip on the meaning of irony.
The limitation is that the software EXPECTS you to have a keyboard attached and therefore does not provide alternative methods to access commonly used functions. Even there, with enough programmable keys this isn't as big a deal. The only time you NEED a keyboard is lots of text entry OR the UI designer has specifically designed the workflow to require it.
THAT'S how its limited. The UI design does not provide the alternative methods of input (gestures, better tool layout, etc) but relies on keypresses. That impacts your workflow when you don't have a keyboard but its not a requirement on the task itself...art vs writing a paper.
Software doesn't expect anything, are you kidding?
Software does what it's written to do. If you write the software for a tablet a smart developer would write it initially for use with no keys. Add the keyboard as an alternative option after your done making sure everything workds withiout one.
If you're writing a paper then a pen interface kinda sucks unless you hate typing. It still sucks because handwriting recognition is still so-so.
Yes, and try using the digitizer in laptop mode with a fliptop. You can but its typically awkward ESPECIALLY if you're depending on pressure to determine line width. Even just normal use of the digitizer is awkward as you tend to tip the laptop a bit and its in an upright position. Hmm...perhaps some might hinge so you can essentially lay the tablet out flat but the screen part is usually much thinner than the rest of the machine.
In tablet mode the keyboard is typically hidden.
So essentially the keyboard is still not quickly available in tablet mode for art work. The USB keyboard is actually better in that regard if you have an easel case. If the keyboard is so essential to your wacom workflow the convertible tablet is not the answer.
And you don't lug the dock around. You have one at your office and one at home. In mobile mode you still have capability but much less than docked. Less HD space (unless you can see a NAS), poorer graphics, fewer input devices, smaller screen, etc.
Essentially that's what I do with the MBP and many folks do with their laptops aready. They dock and use a normal keyboard and mouse with a larger screen.
Vinea
The rest is speaking for itself. I'm done answering you vinea.
Someone post a picture of a fuckin' kitten...
Close enough.
THis has been going on for so long now there is a thread of good examples, but you keep saying it's all about maya. It isn't.
Maya is simply the example you brought up. Insert photoshop, photo editing or whatever artistic program if you prefer.
I do keep mentioning it because it would be one of two items to carry around, and I refuse to carry another item around. That's why I don't have one.
And if the slate is built into a notebook? Then its only two pieces when you want it to be two pieces and one piece when its together.
How are they going to improve an item that lays flat? Prop it up? Then I type on screen? With my hands arched back? OR>>> get another keyboard. Not my idea of a good time.
Or use the slate docked into your keyboard half...
"Not always" are the key words here.
If they are not always necessary then we get rid of them all together? There are more things to do in more fields than art that can use a Tablet, and for many the keyboard is going to be faster than speech or, gesture recognition.
Sure, and for those you use a keyboard.
Software doesn't expect anything, are you kidding?
Software does what it's written to do. If you write the software for a tablet a smart developer would write it initially for use with no keys. Add the keyboard as an alternative option after your done making sure everything workds withiout one.
You keep missing the point. The examples you provided were designed for having a keyboard HENCE a keyboard is required and using a slate is more awkward TODAY when using those programs.
You can write Maya, Photoshop, etc with a non-keyboard/mouse workflow in mind. The apps that would suffer are ones like Word, Keynote, Mail, etc that are written text centric but not all things are text centric. Art design programs are in that category.
For the other applications a keyboard would be required for good productivity.
But with a good slate design you'd have a keyboard when you wanted it and you could get at it with no more hassle than docking it to your slate case. It doesn't have to be carrying two things around...nor even were that the case is it the unholy burden you make it out to be.
The rest is speaking for itself. I'm done answering you vinea.
Heh, you didn't think through how to use a keyboard and digitizer at the same time so you have no rebuttal.
Whatever. Buh Bye.
Vinea
I look forward to Apple (partnering with Wacom) to introduce a line of slate tablets that are both multi-touch sensitive and able to use a stylus, with the accompanying multi-level pressure sensitivity & a new line of displays which also have the multi-touch interface and multi-level pressure sensitivity capabilities (plus an adjustable iSight)… I would expect them to also keep a line of 'regular' monitors for those not needing large multi-touch interface screens, or the price that would go with them…
Then I need Apple to work out the best way to take a stand-alone slate and, through the simple act of placing the slate into an attached dock, the slate becomes a secondary screen & input device for a larger system…
For me, that means my architectural clients carry a 13" slate to meetings and home, and then dock it with their Mac Pro workstation where it becomes a frontend controller for our ArchiOffice database. How this is going to work, I am not sure, but I want the documents tracked by the DB to appear on the main system screen of the host system… Anyone got any thoughts towards this?
For the main screens of the architectural workstations, I would love to go with a 'regular' 30" ACD mounted on a VESA arm, with an Apple-branded multi-touch interface enabled 21" Cintiq LCD in front of that. Give me a keyboard with ArchiCAD specific keys (a la FCP edit keyboards), a decent multi-button/scroll wheel optical mouse & a 6DOF puck in front of all that. Place the 13" slate & dock to the right of the Cintiq, with an iPhone (adapted to allow business VOIP telephone capabilities in the office, and revert to regular cell capabilities when out of the office) to the left… Said iPhone would also have the ability to serve as a broadband tether for the 13" slate outside of the office, if needed…
Sweet…!
;^p
But this multi-touch interface stuff is the next big thing, a paradigm shift in UI standards…
I look forward to Apple (partnering with Wacom) to introduce a line of slate tablets that are both multi-touch sensitive and able to use a stylus, with the accompanying multi-level pressure sensitivity & a new line of displays which also have the multi-touch interface and multi-level pressure sensitivity capabilities (plus an adjustable iSight)… I would expect them to also keep a line of 'regular' monitors for those not needing large multi-touch interface screens, or the price that would go with them…
Then I need Apple to work out the best way to take a stand-alone slate and, through the simple act of placing the slate into an attached dock, the slate becomes a secondary screen & input device for a larger system…
For me, that means my architectural clients carry a 13" slate to meetings and home, and then dock it with their Mac Pro workstation where it becomes a frontend controller for our ArchiOffice database. How this is going to work, I am not sure, but I want the documents tracked by the DB to appear on the main system screen of the host system… Anyone got any thoughts towards this?
For the main screens of the architectural workstations, I would love to go with a 'regular' 30" ACD mounted on a VESA arm, with an Apple-branded multi-touch interface enabled 21" Cintiq LCD in front of that. Give me a keyboard with ArchiCAD specific keys (a la FCP edit keyboards), a decent multi-button/scroll wheel optical mouse & a 6DOF puck in front of all that. Place the 13" slate & dock to the right of the Cintiq, with an iPhone (adapted to allow business VOIP telephone capabilities in the office, and revert to regular cell capabilities when out of the office) to the left… Said iPhone would also have the ability to serve as a broadband tether for the 13" slate outside of the office, if needed…
Sweet…!
;^p
That's a serious setup. Expensive too.
I never addressed Apple partnering with wacom this whole thread because I don't think they will partner that much. Both would want to profit big from it with the ammount of technologies they both would have in it, and I think the end cost would be enormous. Wacom would have over 50% of the technology, and I'm pretty sure Apple is more interested in producing the whole package. I think Apple will more likely build on from what we already saw with the iPhone (Phone) interface. Touch, and pressure sensitivity will have to be done in a whole new way to escape paying for full licensing fee's from the patent holder(s).
Heh, you didn't think through how to use a keyboard and digitizer at the same time so you have no rebuttal.
Whatever. Buh Bye.
Vinea
Looks like I have to do this. (didn't want to)
If you're writing a paper then a pen interface kinda sucks unless you hate typing. It still sucks because handwriting recognition is still so-so.
Yes, and try using the digitizer in laptop mode with a fliptop. You can but its typically awkward ESPECIALLY if you're depending on pressure to determine line width. Even just normal use of the digitizer is awkward as you tend to tip the laptop a bit and its in an upright position. Hmm...perhaps some might hinge so you can essentially lay the tablet out flat but the screen part is usually much thinner than the rest of the machine.
In tablet mode the keyboard is typically hidden.
***So essentially the keyboard is still not quickly available in tablet mode for art work. The USB keyboard is actually better in that regard if you have an easel case. If the keyboard is so essential to your wacom workflow the convertible tablet is not the answer.***
And you don't lug the dock around. You have one at your office and one at home. In mobile mode you still have capability but much less than docked. Less HD space (unless you can see a NAS), poorer graphics, fewer input devices, smaller screen, etc.
Essentially that's what I do with the MBP and many folks do with their laptops aready. They dock and use a normal keyboard and mouse with a larger screen.
Vinea
Using the digitizer in laptop mode doesn't make any sense - at least to me? Your in laptop mode to use the regular laptop features. Maybe you could use an Apple Phone widget keypad on the screen to make a net to phone call or something, but using the digitizer while in laptop mode never entered my mind until you mentioned it. I'm not sure why I would want to. Could you explain more as to why I would need it while I was using the laptop?
***As for the comment I highlighted in stars. Turn it and close it. How hard is that? It's a one handed operation that takes about 3 seconds max if your slow.***
But this multi-touch interface stuff is the next big thing, a paradigm shift in UI standards?
Yes. We've been talking about gesture interfaces for a couple decades now. Between the FITR work at NYU, Apple's multitouch and a couple others we actually will see it in the nearish future.
Then I need Apple to work out the best way to take a stand-alone slate and, through the simple act of placing the slate into an attached dock, the slate becomes a secondary screen & input device for a larger system?
For me, that means my architectural clients carry a 13" slate to meetings and home, and then dock it with their Mac Pro workstation where it becomes a frontend controller for our ArchiOffice database. How this is going to work, I am not sure, but I want the documents tracked by the DB to appear on the main system screen of the host system? Anyone got any thoughts towards this?
Possible today depending on your underlying database. If FileMaker Pro allows syncing of offline databases to the server that should work. Once sync'd the entries on the tablet should appear for everyone.
For the main screens of the architectural workstations, I would love to go with a 'regular' 30" ACD mounted on a VESA arm, with an Apple-branded multi-touch interface enabled 21" Cintiq LCD in front of that. Give me a keyboard with ArchiCAD specific keys (a la FCP edit keyboards), a decent multi-button/scroll wheel optical mouse & a 6DOF puck in front of all that. Place the 13" slate & dock to the right of the Cintiq, with an iPhone (adapted to allow business VOIP telephone capabilities in the office, and revert to regular cell capabilities when out of the office) to the left? Said iPhone would also have the ability to serve as a broadband tether for the 13" slate outside of the office, if needed?
Sweet?!
;^p
I have a 30" ACD + 21" Cintiq + Space Navigator. I have a slate that docks but isn't tied into the workflow as I only use it for meetings. It is pretty sweet and the intent was to replicate as much of the StarFire workstation as was possible in 2005.
Vinea
Using the digitizer in laptop mode doesn't make any sense - at least to me? Your in laptop mode to use the regular laptop features. Maybe you could use an Apple Phone widget keypad on the screen to make a net to phone call or something, but using the digitizer while in laptop mode never entered my mind until you mentioned it. I'm not sure why I would want to. Could you explain more as to why I would need it while I was using the laptop?
***As for the comment I highlighted in stars. Turn it and close it. How hard is that? It's a one handed operation that takes about 3 seconds max if your slow.***
T'was your comment that you must have a keyboard and digitizer to do work. You have both available to you with your powermac + wacom. You do not with a convertible tablet or slate.
Since many art workflows require more manipulation of art objects than typing text the limitation would only be because the designers of the software optimize the workflow with a keyboard/mouse. This is the objection many Maya users had with the Cintiq because of the need for 3 mouse buttons for panning zooming and rotation. But you can set the expresskeys on the Cintiq to replicate the pan/zoom and rotation capabilities.
I don't use Maya so I don't know if there are other parts of the workflow that uses the keyboard but if you have enough programmable keys you can avoid the need for the keyboard for most things.
Maya is simply an example...pick any program and I suspect that most UI designers assume the presence of 3 mouse buttons (sometimes scroll wheel to boot) and keyboard. There is functionality that is often crippled/unavailable/really hard to get to if a keyboard or mouse are missing. Like one program I had were you could ONLY zoom with the scroll wheel or page up/dn (or some other mapped keys) or holding the control key and moving the mouse. The UI designer offered 3 different methods to achieve zoom...
Well gee...on a slate or convertible in tablet mode none of those methods work well do they? You're missing keyboard and usually some mouse buttons.
They are still missing in a convertible. Turning the screen and flipping it MAY only take 3 seconds but you're interrupting your workflow to do so, and you still have to find the key and hit it, then flip back. Try that if you need to HOLD down a key and interact with the pen at the same time.
You do have access with a hybrid slate/laptop that docks together or can be used seperate. When I use a keyboard with the cintiq it can sit in front of the screen but often I stick it off to the side and only use a few keys here and there or occasionally type a sentence or something. I prefer the drawing surface directly in front of me, close when I'm interacting with the pen.
A MBP with Wacom tablet works as well. You have full access to both interaction methods. Something you do not have with a convertible. That's worth the horrific hassle of carrying around a flat 4x6 Intous to work in your hotel room...even if you have a Wacom digitizer built into the display (although the need is certainly far less than with a MBP). At least until UI designers better for anything other than keyboard+mouse.
Pure slate and pure convertible are both compromises. Docked slate to laptop body much less so.
Vinea
Anyway I've read what you said, and your entitled to your opinion like anyone else, but I know what I need better than anyone else.
In any case if you really are going camping with a laptop I recommend the Toughbook. One of my excursions with a MBP to the great outdoors almost turned into a $2500+ oopsie. As is there's a nice dent in it too but that's a different outing.
Just be aware the thing is heavy and small. Sub-optimal for anywhere indoors.
Vinea
But this multi-touch interface stuff is the next big thing, a paradigm shift in UI standards?
I look forward to Apple (partnering with Wacom) to introduce a line of slate tablets that are both multi-touch sensitive and able to use a stylusl
I don't think Wacom makes anything like this (multi-touch screen), so I can't imagine why one would want Apple to partner with them on it.
I don't think Wacom makes anything like this (multi-touch screen), so I can't imagine why one would want Apple to partner with them on it.
I think he would like underlying wacom features in a multi-touch environment which sounds cool as tool, but I think Apple can (or apple thinks they can) work out their own interface that will work just as good, but actually better. After seeing what they did with the iPhone who could doubt it?
(Watch the Quicktime movie on right)
"Update: Yes, we saw the keynote too! We have some very, very exciting updates coming soon- stay tuned!"
On screen virtual keyboard, pinching, zooming desktops, realtime interaction with 3D objects.
What makes you think this isn't coming to Macs this year?
Think sleeker cinema displays that are touch sensitive iMacs, that have a steeper angle, like a drafting table.
(But not portable).
Think sleeker cinema displays that are touch sensitive iMacs, that have a steeper angle, like a drafting table.
(But not portable).
The only thing about Apple's multitouch is that it isn't stylus friendly if I read the reports correctly. Can't find the interview again but I remember reading you have to use a finger and not gloved. Implies skin resistance tech of some kind it true.
Vinea
On screen virtual keyboard, pinching, zooming desktops, realtime interaction with 3D objects.
What makes you think this isn't coming to Macs this year?
Think sleeker cinema displays that are touch sensitive iMacs, that have a steeper angle, like a drafting table.
(But not portable).
Years ago there was a device called the Clio that took the form of a subnotebook convertible tablet. It looked good and much sturdier than the swivel laptops that seem to be popular now and had the ability to set the screen at the angle you are describing. I always thought that Apple should take that form factor. It was updated and looks atrocious now.
http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS9193392884.html
This type of convertible subnotebook, looks like it can have the functionality that I would want in a reasonable size.