Yeah it might have been on gametrailers, I saw it on youtube. What's quite suprising about this technology is that it's fairly cheap to make.
I actually think the fact that the keyboard would have no physical form is it's advantage, because that's what allows you to overcome the boundaries of ergonomics, at least to an extent.
As for your problem, I'm not sure what you mean. Surely you could just write an app that had all the same keys (or as many as you wanted) on the screen. The one drawback of not having a physical form that I can think of is that you wouldn't have the satistfying feeling of punching the keys.
I mean if I were to draw a Keyboard on a piece of Paper from Memory, I wouldn't remember where anything was, my fingers know it better then my eyes. By having no Physical form, I would have to constantly glance down and it would be much less productive.
I see your point about the effectiveness of feeling the discrete keys, but still, you could learn the new keypad system. It might be a little harder, but I bet that you could compensate easily.
Even with the added difficulty, you could still gain tremendous benefits from the technology.
And nobody will ever want to touch a cinema display. It's just awkward.
It makes sense with some Apps, but when it comes down to the most basic stuff, the current UI systems are not ready for it, and it simply wouldn't work when it comes time to open up your Text Editor or a Word Processor.
I personally didn't find it very hard to type on the TouchStream LP, despite the lack of physical buttons. There were two nubs on the home row (on d and k) that you could orient your fingers with. The software was also quite forgiving if your fingers drifted. So, you didn't need to be dead center on the virtual keys to type on them. Besides, typing was only a small part of its functionality. All the various gestures for mousing around, selecting text, issuing commands, etc. were the best part of the surface!
If you have a Printed Keyboard with a couple of Nubs where they would be on a Keyboard, what was the point of using this?
The idea of Multi Touch, is so you don't just have a flat Keyboard and a way to mouse around on the same surface. Using my Macbook, when my hands are on the Keyboard, my fingers are always hovering somewhere between my Spacebar and my Trackpad so I can easily mouse around and type at the same time.
Yeah, I can now more clearly see the whole "tactile response" thing now after reading your (and several other's) post. Also reflecting on my HS typing class (almost 40 years ago) and the "no look" method used by skilled typests, leads me to believe now that some type of finger orientation method (bumps or indents) are necessary for efficient (i. e. fast) typing.
But now I'm a 2-4 digit typist (e. g. look and hit), so perhaps a "flat" surface wouldn't effect us tard typists as much!
It wouldn't affect you at all, it would be far less productive for us who do almost everything with just a few Keystrokes though, and for those who are just fast typers and don't rely on different Keystrokes.
Apple's multi-touch technology was acquired from FingerWorks nearly two years ago. They released a keyboard called the TouchStream LP that had the multi-touch technology. I bought one of them (for a big chunk of change!) when they first came out. It was basically two flat panels with a printed image of keyboard keys to help you out. You can still find out all the stuff the surface is capable of in the User Guides.
I personally didn't find it very hard to type on the TouchStream LP, despite the lack of physical buttons. There were two nubs on the home row (on d and k) that you could orient your fingers with. The software was also quite forgiving if your fingers drifted. So, you didn't need to be dead center on the virtual keys to type on them. Besides, typing was only a small part of its functionality. All the various gestures for mousing around, selecting text, issuing commands, etc. were the best part of the surface!
Oh, yeeeaaaah! You'll get my iGesture pad when you pry it from my cold, dead hand. The gesture functionality is great. No way any mouse or trackball can ever match all the various functions. If it ever dies, I'm going to be in serious mourning. I wasn't too happy with the numeric keypad functionality on my iGesture Numpad, though, so I don't know how you manage to type on your Touchstream.
If you have a Printed Keyboard with a couple of Nubs where they would be on a Keyboard, what was the point of using this?
The idea of Multi Touch, is so you don't just have a flat Keyboard and a way to mouse around on the same surface. Using my Macbook, when my hands are on the Keyboard, my fingers are always hovering somewhere between my Spacebar and my Trackpad so I can easily mouse around and type at the same time.
Sebastian
The printed keys and the two nubs were only a guide for while you're typing on the surface. On the same surface, you could move the mouse, issue commands, etc. For example, there's two printed areas where a shift key would be, but being a multi-touch surface, you can also type a Shift-P (for example) by simple putting down four fingers anywhere with your left hand, and typing a P with your right hand. Command-P is just as simple. Simply do the same four fingers with the left hand, but with the fingers spread apart, and again type P with the right hand. There's nothing stopping you from mousing around with one hand and typing with the other if you were inclined to do so.
Anyhow, it'd be really cool if Apple released a MacBook with the option of a multi-touch surface in place of a keyboard and/or trackpad. Heck, the current MacBooks and iPods are already equipped with the chips (see Where did fingerworks go. Investigation). It's probably only a matter of time before we it in full force on the Mac products and not just the iPhone.
If the original poster's idea ever came to light and I'm seriously doubting it at this point, but if it did, I'd like to see this incorporated into it (purely hypothetical of course):
A card reader that takes programmed cards from each of the various creative software companies, that intuitively work in conjunction with your software.
Such a typing interface would have to go mainstream first, but say you buy Lightwave, or Photoshop, or Logic Audio, or Aperature, your software arrives and in the box is this small card that you pop into your super smart touch screen keyboard. You turn it on and your keyboard suddenly has a customized interface with a layout of shortcut keys for all of your program functions, grouped from most common to least, color coded, etc.
You can of course hit the edit button and slide around individual keys or groups with your finger, creating the ultimate custom setup for yourself, and then you just name your setup and save to memory, which can be recalled at any time depending what program you're in. If you want your keyboard back you just hit that little home button.
For people such as Sebastian, it probably wouldn't sell too well, but for people who spend a lot of time looking at their keyboard, it might prove to be a little more intuitive than memorizing shortcuts and key commands.
You could also build a tutorial type function into it, where if you want a specific effect, you do a dedicated search off the interface and can get detailed shortcuts that cut the most amount of time while providing the highest quality results, programmed by the people who created the software.
A card reader that takes programmed cards from each of the various creative software companies, that intuitively work in conjunction with your software.
That was exactly the idea I had, but why would you need a card reader. The software could drive it, like on the Optimus prototype. A card reader would be last-century tech.
Great discussion here. I've been doing extensive in-depth research on Multi-Touch (MT) technology since the Keynote. I've seen all the Jeff Han videos, studied the FingerWorks (FW) products and user guides, researched Apple's approved and pending patents as well as the acquired FW patents. Apple now has a massive patent fortress protecting MT technology.
The main "pro" message from all posts here (some excellent) and elsewhere is that one is only limited by the imagination as to the capabilities enabled by MT technology. On all forums, the major "con" post re MT has to do with the loss of both tactile response associated with traditional "touch typing" and sensing where the fingers are located on the user customizable virtual keyboard layout . The FW folks stated that fast typists were up to 70 words per minute in a few days after learning how to lightly "touch" rather than "bang" keys. One idea not expressed here is the concept of incorporating user customizable audio sounds with key touches,e.g. click, clack,ping, barely audible whoosh, whatever, etc. as an aid to transitioning from traditional touch typing. Also, think of using an audio feedback mechanism as a way of locating where your fingers are on the MT panel for entering text.
All of my research tells me that an Apple computer with an embedded MT panel (notebook probably first) in lieu of a tradional keyboard/mouse combination is coming and sooner rather later. I would not be surprised if a (the?) major feature upgrade of Leopard is full support of MT, now enhanced and advanced way beyond the original FW technology. And I would not be surprised if there was also a concomitant hardware release of a new Macbook with an MT panel. All of this would make the iPhone bombshell seem like a firecracker. The major negative about Apple in the minds of the Wall Street boys is the lack of significant growth and continuing small market share (~5%, i. e. a niche entity) despite its clearly superior technolgy in the pc arena. MT is the one technology that Apple owns which has the potential to enable Apple to significantly increase market share in the highly competitive cut-throat pc world.
Some good effort there. The width is good. The one brilliant idea in there is central placement of enter and bspace, because it allows for symmetric metakeys (though Typematrix wasted this opportunity). The full-size (!) numeric pad has been sunk there in a rather creative way, but it's a misguided effort. It is a marginal input device and not worth butchering the rest of the keyboard over. If it's needed, it could be added as a separate USB pad, or you could just go for a standard ANSI layout despite the width and symmetry problem.
Overall, the Typematrix has poor metakey placement, which will bite you if you use keyboard shortcuts or the command line. Non-technical people might not care, but then again who cares most about keyboard ergonomics?
Costs three times as much as my HH, otherwise I'd have bought one long ago.
All this graphical / touch manipulation stuff is fun and interesting, but for a touch typer I only see it working in limited applications, preferably as a larger surface separate from the keyboard... probably meaning the main display, which would have to be re-angled and moved closer to the desk surface to be used in this fashion.
For typing, normal tactile keys are where it's at. The only way to get more speed would be to have a two-hand chorded keyboard, where you'd only have in the neighborhood of two buttons for each finger and not more. If only someone made one.
For the basic user I can see a keyboard with OLED keycaps to be usable in a limited way to help with keyboard shortcuts.. but as long as you're looking at them, you haven't learned them, and you are not really reaping the benefit from them. The biggest benefit, I think, would come if you need to type in several languages with their own character sets and are not familiar with the keyboard layout for each.
I was shopping for a new wireless keyboard and noticed that it has 3 - 5 business days delay online and none available in the 2 Apple stores I went to. I was told to wait until Tuesday.
For those who may have trouble taking in the tactile feedback thing I have a task for you. If you know how to type without looking at your keyboard try to move your hands to your desk and start typing. Not so easy is it?
Apple has addressed the tactile feedback issue in the Mighty Mouse by putting a little piezo speaker inside the mouse to acknowledge a side click. It's possible to do that with a keyboard.
Apple has addressed the tactile feedback issue in the Mighty Mouse by putting a little piezo speaker inside the mouse to acknowledge a side click. It's possible to do that with a keyboard.
I'm not buying this (literally or figuratively). I can accept lots of changes, but I'll go out on a limb and say this non-tactile thing is not going to take off. Sound is not touch, even if they're typically highly correlated.
My Powerbook keyboard is extremely quiet, but each key still makes a slight vibration when it strikes the bottom of its "throw" - a necessary element, in my opinion, when you want the user to separate input from thought. The physical feedback allows muscle memory to cause most of the motion, and the brain is left to decision-making. Remove the tactile assist and I think the learning curve will be steeper and the control less intuitive.
As it is, I don't any more think while typing than I think to steer my car.
I'm open to argument on that, but I doubt we're going all the way to non-tactile. On the other hand, a friend of mine at the University of Chicago is training monkeys to steer a little cursor on a screen with their brains - when the cursor gets into a little virtual "box" they get juice. Of course, they have electrodes attached to their scalps, but still.
I'm not buying this (literally or figuratively). I can accept lots of changes, but I'll go out on a limb and say this non-tactile thing is not going to take off. Sound is not touch, even if they're typically highly correlated.
My Powerbook keyboard is extremely quiet, but each key still makes a slight vibration when it strikes the bottom of its "throw" - a necessary element, in my opinion, when you want the user to separate input from thought. The physical feedback allows muscle memory to cause most of the motion, and the brain is left to decision-making. Remove the tactile assist and I think the learning curve will be steeper and the control less intuitive.
As it is, I don't any more think while typing than I think to steer my car.
I'm open to argument on that, but I doubt we're going all the way to non-tactile. On the other hand, a friend of mine at the University of Chicago is training monkeys to steer a little cursor on a screen with their brains - when the cursor gets into a little virtual "box" they get juice. Of course, they have electrodes attached to their scalps, but still.
If you haven't already, you might want to look at the FingerWorks FAQ page on "Zero-Force" typing.
Comments
The new Luxeed Keyboard
great! sci-fi flash-as-you-type keyboard buttons ftw!
i would like to see apple use something like this in the macbooks:
http://www.typematrix.com/
non-19th century keyboard layouts ftw!
Yeah it might have been on gametrailers, I saw it on youtube. What's quite suprising about this technology is that it's fairly cheap to make.
I actually think the fact that the keyboard would have no physical form is it's advantage, because that's what allows you to overcome the boundaries of ergonomics, at least to an extent.
As for your problem, I'm not sure what you mean. Surely you could just write an app that had all the same keys (or as many as you wanted) on the screen. The one drawback of not having a physical form that I can think of is that you wouldn't have the satistfying feeling of punching the keys.
I mean if I were to draw a Keyboard on a piece of Paper from Memory, I wouldn't remember where anything was, my fingers know it better then my eyes. By having no Physical form, I would have to constantly glance down and it would be much less productive.
Sebastian
I see your point about the effectiveness of feeling the discrete keys, but still, you could learn the new keypad system. It might be a little harder, but I bet that you could compensate easily.
Even with the added difficulty, you could still gain tremendous benefits from the technology.
And nobody will ever want to touch a cinema display. It's just awkward.
It makes sense with some Apps, but when it comes down to the most basic stuff, the current UI systems are not ready for it, and it simply wouldn't work when it comes time to open up your Text Editor or a Word Processor.
Sebastian
I personally didn't find it very hard to type on the TouchStream LP, despite the lack of physical buttons. There were two nubs on the home row (on d and k) that you could orient your fingers with. The software was also quite forgiving if your fingers drifted. So, you didn't need to be dead center on the virtual keys to type on them. Besides, typing was only a small part of its functionality. All the various gestures for mousing around, selecting text, issuing commands, etc. were the best part of the surface!
If you have a Printed Keyboard with a couple of Nubs where they would be on a Keyboard, what was the point of using this?
The idea of Multi Touch, is so you don't just have a flat Keyboard and a way to mouse around on the same surface. Using my Macbook, when my hands are on the Keyboard, my fingers are always hovering somewhere between my Spacebar and my Trackpad so I can easily mouse around and type at the same time.
Sebastian
Yeah, I can now more clearly see the whole "tactile response" thing now after reading your (and several other's) post. Also reflecting on my HS typing class (almost 40 years ago) and the "no look" method used by skilled typests, leads me to believe now that some type of finger orientation method (bumps or indents) are necessary for efficient (i. e. fast) typing.
But now I'm a 2-4 digit typist (e. g. look and hit), so perhaps a "flat" surface wouldn't effect us tard typists as much!
It wouldn't affect you at all, it would be far less productive for us who do almost everything with just a few Keystrokes though, and for those who are just fast typers and don't rely on different Keystrokes.
Sebastian
Tactile feedback anyone?
http://www.immersion.com/
[Add to Mr. Jobs' shopping cart]
Apple's multi-touch technology was acquired from FingerWorks nearly two years ago. They released a keyboard called the TouchStream LP that had the multi-touch technology. I bought one of them (for a big chunk of change!) when they first came out. It was basically two flat panels with a printed image of keyboard keys to help you out. You can still find out all the stuff the surface is capable of in the User Guides.
I personally didn't find it very hard to type on the TouchStream LP, despite the lack of physical buttons. There were two nubs on the home row (on d and k) that you could orient your fingers with. The software was also quite forgiving if your fingers drifted. So, you didn't need to be dead center on the virtual keys to type on them. Besides, typing was only a small part of its functionality. All the various gestures for mousing around, selecting text, issuing commands, etc. were the best part of the surface!
Oh, yeeeaaaah! You'll get my iGesture pad when you pry it from my cold, dead hand. The gesture functionality is great. No way any mouse or trackball can ever match all the various functions. If it ever dies, I'm going to be in serious mourning. I wasn't too happy with the numeric keypad functionality on my iGesture Numpad, though, so I don't know how you manage to type on your Touchstream.
If you have a Printed Keyboard with a couple of Nubs where they would be on a Keyboard, what was the point of using this?
The idea of Multi Touch, is so you don't just have a flat Keyboard and a way to mouse around on the same surface. Using my Macbook, when my hands are on the Keyboard, my fingers are always hovering somewhere between my Spacebar and my Trackpad so I can easily mouse around and type at the same time.
Sebastian
The printed keys and the two nubs were only a guide for while you're typing on the surface. On the same surface, you could move the mouse, issue commands, etc. For example, there's two printed areas where a shift key would be, but being a multi-touch surface, you can also type a Shift-P (for example) by simple putting down four fingers anywhere with your left hand, and typing a P with your right hand. Command-P is just as simple. Simply do the same four fingers with the left hand, but with the fingers spread apart, and again type P with the right hand. There's nothing stopping you from mousing around with one hand and typing with the other if you were inclined to do so.
If you look at the user guides, the surface was pre-programmed with a wide variety of gestures, which you could add to. For example, you can close a window by "waving" with three fingers and a thumb using your left hand. Quit was a similar gesture using the right hand.
Anyhow, it'd be really cool if Apple released a MacBook with the option of a multi-touch surface in place of a keyboard and/or trackpad. Heck, the current MacBooks and iPods are already equipped with the chips (see Where did fingerworks go. Investigation). It's probably only a matter of time before we it in full force on the Mac products and not just the iPhone.
Apple won't do it, though.
A card reader that takes programmed cards from each of the various creative software companies, that intuitively work in conjunction with your software.
Such a typing interface would have to go mainstream first, but say you buy Lightwave, or Photoshop, or Logic Audio, or Aperature, your software arrives and in the box is this small card that you pop into your super smart touch screen keyboard. You turn it on and your keyboard suddenly has a customized interface with a layout of shortcut keys for all of your program functions, grouped from most common to least, color coded, etc.
You can of course hit the edit button and slide around individual keys or groups with your finger, creating the ultimate custom setup for yourself, and then you just name your setup and save to memory, which can be recalled at any time depending what program you're in. If you want your keyboard back you just hit that little home button.
For people such as Sebastian, it probably wouldn't sell too well, but for people who spend a lot of time looking at their keyboard, it might prove to be a little more intuitive than memorizing shortcuts and key commands.
You could also build a tutorial type function into it, where if you want a specific effect, you do a dedicated search off the interface and can get detailed shortcuts that cut the most amount of time while providing the highest quality results, programmed by the people who created the software.
Totally fantasy but it could be fun.
A card reader that takes programmed cards from each of the various creative software companies, that intuitively work in conjunction with your software.
That was exactly the idea I had, but why would you need a card reader. The software could drive it, like on the Optimus prototype. A card reader would be last-century tech.
Great discussion here. I've been doing extensive in-depth research on Multi-Touch (MT) technology since the Keynote. I've seen all the Jeff Han videos, studied the FingerWorks (FW) products and user guides, researched Apple's approved and pending patents as well as the acquired FW patents. Apple now has a massive patent fortress protecting MT technology.
The main "pro" message from all posts here (some excellent) and elsewhere is that one is only limited by the imagination as to the capabilities enabled by MT technology. On all forums, the major "con" post re MT has to do with the loss of both tactile response associated with traditional "touch typing" and sensing where the fingers are located on the user customizable virtual keyboard layout . The FW folks stated that fast typists were up to 70 words per minute in a few days after learning how to lightly "touch" rather than "bang" keys. One idea not expressed here is the concept of incorporating user customizable audio sounds with key touches,e.g. click, clack,ping, barely audible whoosh, whatever, etc. as an aid to transitioning from traditional touch typing. Also, think of using an audio feedback mechanism as a way of locating where your fingers are on the MT panel for entering text.
All of my research tells me that an Apple computer with an embedded MT panel (notebook probably first) in lieu of a tradional keyboard/mouse combination is coming and sooner rather later. I would not be surprised if a (the?) major feature upgrade of Leopard is full support of MT, now enhanced and advanced way beyond the original FW technology. And I would not be surprised if there was also a concomitant hardware release of a new Macbook with an MT panel. All of this would make the iPhone bombshell seem like a firecracker. The major negative about Apple in the minds of the Wall Street boys is the lack of significant growth and continuing small market share (~5%, i. e. a niche entity) despite its clearly superior technolgy in the pc arena. MT is the one technology that Apple owns which has the potential to enable Apple to significantly increase market share in the highly competitive cut-throat pc world.
A Perfect Storm is Coming!
--Leopard with full support for Apple owned MT
--New Mac hardware with an MT panel
--New Software Apps that support MT
And, oh yeah, the iPhone.
i would like to see apple use something like this in the macbooks:
http://www.typematrix.com/
non-19th century keyboard layouts ftw!
Some good effort there. The width is good. The one brilliant idea in there is central placement of enter and bspace, because it allows for symmetric metakeys (though Typematrix wasted this opportunity). The full-size (!) numeric pad has been sunk there in a rather creative way, but it's a misguided effort. It is a marginal input device and not worth butchering the rest of the keyboard over. If it's needed, it could be added as a separate USB pad, or you could just go for a standard ANSI layout despite the width and symmetry problem.
Overall, the Typematrix has poor metakey placement, which will bite you if you use keyboard shortcuts or the command line. Non-technical people might not care, but then again who cares most about keyboard ergonomics?
My HH Lite2 keyboard is better: http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/en/hhkeyb...mages/200B.jpg
If you really want to pull all stops and go for a non-traditional typer's keyboard, then I'd look at the Kinesis Advantage. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/k...blk720x471.jpg
Costs three times as much as my HH, otherwise I'd have bought one long ago.
All this graphical / touch manipulation stuff is fun and interesting, but for a touch typer I only see it working in limited applications, preferably as a larger surface separate from the keyboard... probably meaning the main display, which would have to be re-angled and moved closer to the desk surface to be used in this fashion.
For typing, normal tactile keys are where it's at. The only way to get more speed would be to have a two-hand chorded keyboard, where you'd only have in the neighborhood of two buttons for each finger and not more. If only someone made one.
For the basic user I can see a keyboard with OLED keycaps to be usable in a limited way to help with keyboard shortcuts.. but as long as you're looking at them, you haven't learned them, and you are not really reaping the benefit from them. The biggest benefit, I think, would come if you need to type in several languages with their own character sets and are not familiar with the keyboard layout for each.
Apple has addressed the tactile feedback issue in the Mighty Mouse by putting a little piezo speaker inside the mouse to acknowledge a side click. It's possible to do that with a keyboard.
I'm not buying this (literally or figuratively). I can accept lots of changes, but I'll go out on a limb and say this non-tactile thing is not going to take off. Sound is not touch, even if they're typically highly correlated.
My Powerbook keyboard is extremely quiet, but each key still makes a slight vibration when it strikes the bottom of its "throw" - a necessary element, in my opinion, when you want the user to separate input from thought. The physical feedback allows muscle memory to cause most of the motion, and the brain is left to decision-making. Remove the tactile assist and I think the learning curve will be steeper and the control less intuitive.
As it is, I don't any more think while typing than I think to steer my car.
I'm open to argument on that, but I doubt we're going all the way to non-tactile. On the other hand, a friend of mine at the University of Chicago is training monkeys to steer a little cursor on a screen with their brains - when the cursor gets into a little virtual "box" they get juice. Of course, they have electrodes attached to their scalps, but still.
I'm not buying this (literally or figuratively). I can accept lots of changes, but I'll go out on a limb and say this non-tactile thing is not going to take off. Sound is not touch, even if they're typically highly correlated.
My Powerbook keyboard is extremely quiet, but each key still makes a slight vibration when it strikes the bottom of its "throw" - a necessary element, in my opinion, when you want the user to separate input from thought. The physical feedback allows muscle memory to cause most of the motion, and the brain is left to decision-making. Remove the tactile assist and I think the learning curve will be steeper and the control less intuitive.
As it is, I don't any more think while typing than I think to steer my car.
I'm open to argument on that, but I doubt we're going all the way to non-tactile. On the other hand, a friend of mine at the University of Chicago is training monkeys to steer a little cursor on a screen with their brains - when the cursor gets into a little virtual "box" they get juice. Of course, they have electrodes attached to their scalps, but still.
If you haven't already, you might want to look at the FingerWorks FAQ page on "Zero-Force" typing.
http://www.fingerworks.com/faq.html
If you haven't already, you might want to look at the FingerWorks FAQ page on "Zero-Force" typing.
http://www.fingerworks.com/faq.html
Very interesting. I suspect this is something you'd have to experience to believe. I'm interested in trying it.