Hmmmm.... there was a HUGE debate on Mac v. PC and tech support in Pogue's Posts a while ago. Many corporate IT types weighed in quite emotionally on this issue, since it apparently hit some kind of nerve. It turns out to be a tad more complicated than the discussion here. I would have cut-and-pasted some of the highlights, but that would do its thoughtful content great injustice.
No argument on Corporate, but no home user should need an IT guy (read Geek Squad) ... every PC user I know (home user) has them in all the time to fix problems. All the converts I have made to Macs have never needed one to date. Main issue I hit with them was how to open docs from PCs. Mainly these were jokes sent in PowerPoint format and KeyNote solves that one.
As to Corporate, I bet much of the issues were integration. Let's face it if the poor macs didn't have to interface with the PCs what's left to worry about? I run a large networks with mixed platforms and it is getting easier all the time I must say although not perfect yet.
No argument on Corporate, but no home user should need an IT guy (read Geek Squad) ... every PC user I know (home user) has them in all the time to fix problems. All the converts I have made to Macs have never needed one to date. Main issue I hit with them was how to open docs from PCs. Mainly these were jokes sent in PowerPoint format and KeyNote solves that one.
As to Corporate, I bet much of the issues were integration. Let's face it if the poor macs didn't have to interface with the PCs what's left to worry about? I run a large networks with mixed platforms and it is getting easier all the time I must say although not perfect yet.
Fair points.
But there's the rub in any Mac v. PC "market share" discussion: Home versus Corporate purchases -- and the fact that the latter probably overwhelms the former. And hence, an important reason as to why data from places such as Amazon.com are largely irrelevant in determining matters such as profitability, ubiquity/influence/relevance of Vista, relative importance Mac v. PC software, market values, etc. It would be the equivalent of having a discussion on the impact of energy use on global warming by just looking at household, and not corporate consumption of energy!
(And hence the prior comment on my part about the story that started this thread as being rather "silly.")
In a recent interview, Gates told the interviewer, on, I think it was either MSNBC or CNBC, that Vista is the First OS to have parental controls. Well, that's not even coming close to the truth. He said other things that weren't accurate either.
The same thing can be said of Ballmer, who constantly makes up figures and numbers in his interviews, such as the one where he said that the Zune had 20% marketshare in December for players $249 and up. It turned out that the number was about 10%, and only for the first week, after that it dropped considerably.
Not only that, but I distinctly remember Gates taking some pretty mean-spirited swipes at the iMac during one of his yearly CES speeches. I guess if you sell well, and aren't running Windows, you're up for some Gates abuse (however effective THAT is).
It's just silly to think that either company can claim the 'moral high ground' here. Both are large corporations, and both will eye-gouge and hair-pull to get whatever advantage they can. Apple quoting Paul Thurrott, who's actually a true-blue Microsoft devotee, is waaaaay down the totem pole of dastardly deeds. For truly noteworthy bad behavior, go back and re-read some of the stuff that came to light during the Dept of Justice trial against MS.
So to anyone who honestly thinks that Apple is being the big, bad bully:
But there's the rub in any Mac v. PC "market share" discussion: Home versus Corporate purchases -- and the fact that the latter probably overwhelms the former. And hence, an important reason as to why data from places such as Amazon.com are largely irrelevant in determining matters such as profitability, ubiquity/influence/relevance of Vista, relative importance Mac v. PC software, market values, etc. It would be the equivalent of having a discussion on the impact of energy use on global warming by just looking at household, and not corporate consumption of energy!
(And hence the prior comment on my part about the story that started this thread as being rather "silly.")
I wonder if the corporate 'buy' truly overwhelms the sum total of home, self employed and small business potential as you imply? Do you have numbers to say which has the greater potential sales of Macs?
If as I suspect the latter is far greater remember the iPod effect, many per household. Each new Mac owner seems to fall in love with their Mac and becomes an evangelist. Not found too many equivalents in the Windows world to be honest. So the potential volume of Macs over time could be staggering... as in exponential.
This very afternoon a friend is taking his daughter to buy her a MacBook Pro. He has eight PCs at work and has constant problems with his 'network'. He said to me ten minutes ago, "You know I may have to try this Mac out, if I like it could you build me a network at my office to do what I need?" He runs QuickBooks and Word...shared printer, mail and web (most of the time something isn't working) that's it!
I wonder if the corporate 'buy' truly overwhelms the sum total of home, self employed and small business potential as you imply? Do you have numbers to say which has the greater potential sales of Macs?
No, I don't. That is why I said "probably." But I would be willing to bet that is the case. (Altho, I would guess the household/corporate share would closer to 50-50 in the US).
If you look at PC markets outside of the US (esp. countries such as India, China, Japan, large parts of Europe, Latin America) I have no doubt that this would be dramatically true. And, relative to countrues such as the US, these are the growth markets for PCs. For instance, PC consumption in China + India + Korea was close to 50 million last year (Source: IDC), and could easily reach 60-65 million this year (roughly 240 million PCs sold worldwide last year -- http://www.tekrati.com/research/News.asp?id=8365).
Moreover, I would reasonably guess that corporate PC buyers replace their machines more often (e.g., every three years, or as soon as they are fully depreciated), which is another source of continuing demand.
Why wouldn't a person need IT help. That depends on the technical knowledge of the person using the computer. I've had to correct some problems with a friends iBook several times. I've also had to correct a problem with a ex-girlfriends laptop. Neither of their problems were major, but they didn't have a clue nor did they want to. If the person doesn't want to know how to fix their computer, then the Geek Squads of the world will stay in business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
No argument on Corporate, but no home user should need an IT guy (read Geek Squad) ... every PC user I know (home user) has them in all the time to fix problems. All the converts I have made to Macs have never needed one to date. Main issue I hit with them was how to open docs from PCs. Mainly these were jokes sent in PowerPoint format and KeyNote solves that one.
As to Corporate, I bet much of the issues were integration. Let's face it if the poor macs didn't have to interface with the PCs what's left to worry about? I run a large networks with mixed platforms and it is getting easier all the time I must say although not perfect yet.
Just think of the money people pay to have a "professional" come in a set up their home wireless network, when it can be done easly in about 15 minutes.
I wonder if the corporate 'buy' truly overwhelms the sum total of home, self employed and small business potential as you imply? Do you have numbers to say which has the greater potential sales of Macs?
If as I suspect the latter is far greater remember the iPod effect, many per household. Each new Mac owner seems to fall in love with their Mac and becomes an evangelist. Not found too many equivalents in the Windows world to be honest. So the potential volume of Macs over time could be staggering... as in exponential.
This very afternoon a friend is taking his daughter to buy her a MacBook Pro. He has eight PCs at work and has constant problems with his 'network'. He said to me ten minutes ago, "You know I may have to try this Mac out, if I like it could you build me a network at my office to do what I need?" He runs QuickBooks and Word...shared printer, mail and web (most of the time something isn't working) that's it!
I didn't laugh... it will happen.
In the US, and the numbers around the world are about the same, roughly 40-45% of computer purchases are business/government/school related. That's a change over the years from mostly B/G/S purchasing. This trend started in the mid nineties, and has accelerated since.
In fact, going from about one computer for every 10 households in the early '90's in the US, it has ended up now with almost 1.5 computers per household. That doesn't include devices with computer chips built-in, but are not computers themselves. The trend is continuing. Many households have one computer per member, some more than that. We are three people, with four active computers.
I'm the IT guy here, but with our Macs, it doesn't usually involve much.
But for friends with PC networks, I usually have to do their troubleshooting.
Just as a side note.... I used to know the IT guys at Foothill College, a community college here in the Silicon Valley.
They had to support 70-80 PCs and 70-80 Macs at the time I knew them. Guess how many staff they had supporting the PCs? Three, full-time. Guess how many they had supporting the Macs? One, and he was part-time some weeks. And from my experience in the computer labs there, the Macs were functioning better on the whole.
You can have problems with Macs, sure, but overall they just seem to require less hand-holding and less IT help to use. I also used to know some IT folk from NASA Ames Research Center, and they admitted as much as well.
We have the same problems in the schools here in NYC.
We have computer labs in most schools, apart from the networked (mostly) machines in the classrooms.
There are both Mac and PC labs.
Experience has shown that the PC labs, and their servers, go down more frequently than do the Mac labs.
Bringing the labs back up is usually also a different experience.
Most often, the Mac labs can be brought back up with a re-boot of the (Mac) server, and if required, the connected clients.
The PC labs, require more extensive work, more often than not. Most schools have to call for outside Board of Ed staff trained in such matters for help.
The end result is that the Mac labs have more up-time than do the PC labs.
Amazon's list means absolutely nothing because Dell and HP don't even sell new computers through amazon, and together they account for nearly 60% of all pc's sold.
Macs have been at the top of Amazons "top 10 list" for the past three years and quite frankly, it hasn't proved anything other than the fact that most people don't buy PC's from amazon.com.
Maybe I'm stupid, but to me it looks like they sell HPs...
That's not even a joke. MS huge support requirement is the #1 reason for their success... all the techs required to help folk and thus depending on it being crappy for their living and hence they recommend it ... A trick they learned from IBM IT departments in the 70's.
In a few years when Apple OS dominates new computers imagine all the tens of thousands of geeks with a 'degree' in how to set up Outlook on the streets looking for work
Yeah, that's true.
I don't think Mac OS X will ever truly dominate, Windows is the wrong thing to compare too, it's like comparing Apple's and Oranges when you should be comparing it to Dell and the like which just plain outnumber Apple now. They may eventually make their own OSs though.... I wish -_-
Hmmmm.... there was a HUGE debate on Mac v. PC and tech support in Pogue's Posts a while ago. Many corporate IT types weighed in quite emotionally on this issue, since it apparently hit some kind of nerve. It turns out to be a tad more complicated than the discussion here. I would have cut-and-pasted some of the highlights, but that would do its thoughtful content great injustice.
Sheesh, good article. I'm about halfway through it now, but if you think about it, there would be far less of a need for Technical Support (their time would just to into other things along the lines of support) if you're not worried about those Damned Viruses after all.
Sheesh, good article. I'm about halfway through it now, but if you think about it, there would be far less of a need for Technical Support (their time would just to into other things along the lines of support) if you're not worried about those Damned Viruses after all.
Sebastian
<yoda>
Wanting to be involved in Tech, have you mentioned... Hmmm?
There is no try, only Do.
When time comes, decisions have to make, you will...
Be not seduced, many jobs in Windows world, available, yes?
For it leads to the Dark Side.... Hmmmmm..............................
Maybe I'm stupid, but to me it looks like they sell HPs...
No worries bro, it has been established now in this thread that Amazon sells Dells, HPs, and Sony PCs/laptops/whatevs. The ongoing argument is why are Apple models always at the top? Some people claim it's because there are so many individual models of Dells and HPs being sold that they will never individually claim top spots over the "limited" models of Macs.
No worries bro, it has been established now in this thread that Amazon sells Dells, HPs, and Sony PCs/laptops/whatevs. The ongoing argument is why are Apple models always at the top? Some people claim it's because there are so many individual models of Dells and HPs being sold that they will never individually claim top spots over the "limited" models of Macs.
As far as I know, Amazon doesn't release sales numbers.
The top models may be on top by a small percentage. That, and the greater numbers of PC models will both have meaning.
What we don't know, is what percentage of total computer sales there, all of the Mac models together represent.
As a matter of fact I do. Since you seem to think negative and just by responding to this post in negative manner... wait a minute this is a trick!!!
Seriously what good is reading a post when it's all negative? Would you read a post, watch TV, read the news, listen to a friend that's negative all the time? If you say yes, then I feel for you and not just you but anyone boasting with negativity. My reason to read posts is to get positive( and even a little poke fun of stuff) opinions from other Mac faithfuls. If I want negative crap, well then I'll go to work where I get plenty of. So you can agree or disagree with my answer. You (not you personally) bring negative to the table, people most likely will leave full of it.
I'm not slamming you but I would like your opinion. It goes both ways.
Moreover, I would reasonably guess that corporate PC buyers replace their machines more often (e.g., every three years, or as soon as they are fully depreciated), which is another source of continuing demand.
You'd be wrong; they replace them less often. Many corporate machines still run NT 4.0.
Just think of the money people pay to have a "professional" come in a set up their home wireless network, when it can be done easly in about 15 minutes.
15 seconds on a mac
never ever again will i walow in the pit of stuff that is windows.
i will say one thing for windows IT people.. the have LOTS of patients
Comments
Hmmmm.... there was a HUGE debate on Mac v. PC and tech support in Pogue's Posts a while ago. Many corporate IT types weighed in quite emotionally on this issue, since it apparently hit some kind of nerve. It turns out to be a tad more complicated than the discussion here. I would have cut-and-pasted some of the highlights, but that would do its thoughtful content great injustice.
For those interested:
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2006/...17pogue-email/
No argument on Corporate, but no home user should need an IT guy (read Geek Squad) ... every PC user I know (home user) has them in all the time to fix problems. All the converts I have made to Macs have never needed one to date. Main issue I hit with them was how to open docs from PCs. Mainly these were jokes sent in PowerPoint format and KeyNote solves that one.
As to Corporate, I bet much of the issues were integration. Let's face it if the poor macs didn't have to interface with the PCs what's left to worry about? I run a large networks with mixed platforms and it is getting easier all the time I must say although not perfect yet.
No argument on Corporate, but no home user should need an IT guy (read Geek Squad) ... every PC user I know (home user) has them in all the time to fix problems. All the converts I have made to Macs have never needed one to date. Main issue I hit with them was how to open docs from PCs. Mainly these were jokes sent in PowerPoint format and KeyNote solves that one.
As to Corporate, I bet much of the issues were integration. Let's face it if the poor macs didn't have to interface with the PCs what's left to worry about? I run a large networks with mixed platforms and it is getting easier all the time I must say although not perfect yet.
Fair points.
But there's the rub in any Mac v. PC "market share" discussion: Home versus Corporate purchases -- and the fact that the latter probably overwhelms the former. And hence, an important reason as to why data from places such as Amazon.com are largely irrelevant in determining matters such as profitability, ubiquity/influence/relevance of Vista, relative importance Mac v. PC software, market values, etc. It would be the equivalent of having a discussion on the impact of energy use on global warming by just looking at household, and not corporate consumption of energy!
(And hence the prior comment on my part about the story that started this thread as being rather "silly.")
How about this then?
In a recent interview, Gates told the interviewer, on, I think it was either MSNBC or CNBC, that Vista is the First OS to have parental controls. Well, that's not even coming close to the truth. He said other things that weren't accurate either.
The same thing can be said of Ballmer, who constantly makes up figures and numbers in his interviews, such as the one where he said that the Zune had 20% marketshare in December for players $249 and up. It turned out that the number was about 10%, and only for the first week, after that it dropped considerably.
Not only that, but I distinctly remember Gates taking some pretty mean-spirited swipes at the iMac during one of his yearly CES speeches. I guess if you sell well, and aren't running Windows, you're up for some Gates abuse (however effective THAT is).
It's just silly to think that either company can claim the 'moral high ground' here. Both are large corporations, and both will eye-gouge and hair-pull to get whatever advantage they can. Apple quoting Paul Thurrott, who's actually a true-blue Microsoft devotee, is waaaaay down the totem pole of dastardly deeds. For truly noteworthy bad behavior, go back and re-read some of the stuff that came to light during the Dept of Justice trial against MS.
So to anyone who honestly thinks that Apple is being the big, bad bully:
TBaggins you are freaking genius with an apt reply! It gave a good laugh to fall over on floor!
Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. 8)
.
Fair points.
But there's the rub in any Mac v. PC "market share" discussion: Home versus Corporate purchases -- and the fact that the latter probably overwhelms the former. And hence, an important reason as to why data from places such as Amazon.com are largely irrelevant in determining matters such as profitability, ubiquity/influence/relevance of Vista, relative importance Mac v. PC software, market values, etc. It would be the equivalent of having a discussion on the impact of energy use on global warming by just looking at household, and not corporate consumption of energy!
(And hence the prior comment on my part about the story that started this thread as being rather "silly.")
I wonder if the corporate 'buy' truly overwhelms the sum total of home, self employed and small business potential as you imply? Do you have numbers to say which has the greater potential sales of Macs?
If as I suspect the latter is far greater remember the iPod effect, many per household. Each new Mac owner seems to fall in love with their Mac and becomes an evangelist. Not found too many equivalents in the Windows world to be honest. So the potential volume of Macs over time could be staggering... as in exponential.
This very afternoon a friend is taking his daughter to buy her a MacBook Pro. He has eight PCs at work and has constant problems with his 'network'. He said to me ten minutes ago, "You know I may have to try this Mac out, if I like it could you build me a network at my office to do what I need?" He runs QuickBooks and Word...shared printer, mail and web (most of the time something isn't working) that's it!
I didn't laugh... it will happen.
I wonder if the corporate 'buy' truly overwhelms the sum total of home, self employed and small business potential as you imply? Do you have numbers to say which has the greater potential sales of Macs?
No, I don't. That is why I said "probably." But I would be willing to bet that is the case. (Altho, I would guess the household/corporate share would closer to 50-50 in the US).
If you look at PC markets outside of the US (esp. countries such as India, China, Japan, large parts of Europe, Latin America) I have no doubt that this would be dramatically true. And, relative to countrues such as the US, these are the growth markets for PCs. For instance, PC consumption in China + India + Korea was close to 50 million last year (Source: IDC), and could easily reach 60-65 million this year (roughly 240 million PCs sold worldwide last year -- http://www.tekrati.com/research/News.asp?id=8365).
Moreover, I would reasonably guess that corporate PC buyers replace their machines more often (e.g., every three years, or as soon as they are fully depreciated), which is another source of continuing demand.
No argument on Corporate, but no home user should need an IT guy (read Geek Squad) ... every PC user I know (home user) has them in all the time to fix problems. All the converts I have made to Macs have never needed one to date. Main issue I hit with them was how to open docs from PCs. Mainly these were jokes sent in PowerPoint format and KeyNote solves that one.
As to Corporate, I bet much of the issues were integration. Let's face it if the poor macs didn't have to interface with the PCs what's left to worry about? I run a large networks with mixed platforms and it is getting easier all the time I must say although not perfect yet.
Just think of the money people pay to have a "professional" come in a set up their home wireless network, when it can be done easly in about 15 minutes.
I wonder if the corporate 'buy' truly overwhelms the sum total of home, self employed and small business potential as you imply? Do you have numbers to say which has the greater potential sales of Macs?
If as I suspect the latter is far greater remember the iPod effect, many per household. Each new Mac owner seems to fall in love with their Mac and becomes an evangelist. Not found too many equivalents in the Windows world to be honest. So the potential volume of Macs over time could be staggering... as in exponential.
This very afternoon a friend is taking his daughter to buy her a MacBook Pro. He has eight PCs at work and has constant problems with his 'network'. He said to me ten minutes ago, "You know I may have to try this Mac out, if I like it could you build me a network at my office to do what I need?" He runs QuickBooks and Word...shared printer, mail and web (most of the time something isn't working) that's it!
I didn't laugh... it will happen.
In the US, and the numbers around the world are about the same, roughly 40-45% of computer purchases are business/government/school related. That's a change over the years from mostly B/G/S purchasing. This trend started in the mid nineties, and has accelerated since.
In fact, going from about one computer for every 10 households in the early '90's in the US, it has ended up now with almost 1.5 computers per household. That doesn't include devices with computer chips built-in, but are not computers themselves. The trend is continuing. Many households have one computer per member, some more than that. We are three people, with four active computers.
I'm the IT guy here, but with our Macs, it doesn't usually involve much.
But for friends with PC networks, I usually have to do their troubleshooting.
They had to support 70-80 PCs and 70-80 Macs at the time I knew them. Guess how many staff they had supporting the PCs? Three, full-time. Guess how many they had supporting the Macs? One, and he was part-time some weeks. And from my experience in the computer labs there, the Macs were functioning better on the whole.
You can have problems with Macs, sure, but overall they just seem to require less hand-holding and less IT help to use. I also used to know some IT folk from NASA Ames Research Center, and they admitted as much as well.
.
We have computer labs in most schools, apart from the networked (mostly) machines in the classrooms.
There are both Mac and PC labs.
Experience has shown that the PC labs, and their servers, go down more frequently than do the Mac labs.
Bringing the labs back up is usually also a different experience.
Most often, the Mac labs can be brought back up with a re-boot of the (Mac) server, and if required, the connected clients.
The PC labs, require more extensive work, more often than not. Most schools have to call for outside Board of Ed staff trained in such matters for help.
The end result is that the Mac labs have more up-time than do the PC labs.
Completely baseless report....
Amazon's list means absolutely nothing because Dell and HP don't even sell new computers through amazon, and together they account for nearly 60% of all pc's sold.
Macs have been at the top of Amazons "top 10 list" for the past three years and quite frankly, it hasn't proved anything other than the fact that most people don't buy PC's from amazon.com.
Maybe I'm stupid, but to me it looks like they sell HPs...
That's not even a joke. MS huge support requirement is the #1 reason for their success... all the techs required to help folk and thus depending on it being crappy for their living and hence they recommend it ... A trick they learned from IBM IT departments in the 70's.
In a few years when Apple OS dominates new computers imagine all the tens of thousands of geeks with a 'degree' in how to set up Outlook on the streets looking for work
Yeah, that's true.
I don't think Mac OS X will ever truly dominate, Windows is the wrong thing to compare too, it's like comparing Apple's and Oranges when you should be comparing it to Dell and the like
Sebastian
Hmmmm.... there was a HUGE debate on Mac v. PC and tech support in Pogue's Posts a while ago. Many corporate IT types weighed in quite emotionally on this issue, since it apparently hit some kind of nerve. It turns out to be a tad more complicated than the discussion here. I would have cut-and-pasted some of the highlights, but that would do its thoughtful content great injustice.
For those interested:
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2006/...17pogue-email/
Sheesh, good article. I'm about halfway through it now, but if you think about it, there would be far less of a need for Technical Support (their time would just to into other things along the lines of support) if you're not worried about those Damned Viruses after all.
Sebastian
Sheesh, good article. I'm about halfway through it now, but if you think about it, there would be far less of a need for Technical Support (their time would just to into other things along the lines of support) if you're not worried about those Damned Viruses after all.
Sebastian
<yoda>
Wanting to be involved in Tech, have you mentioned... Hmmm?
There is no try, only Do.
When time comes, decisions have to make, you will...
Be not seduced, many jobs in Windows world, available, yes?
For it leads to the Dark Side.... Hmmmmm..............................
</yoda>
Maybe I'm stupid, but to me it looks like they sell HPs...
No worries bro, it has been established now in this thread that Amazon sells Dells, HPs, and Sony PCs/laptops/whatevs. The ongoing argument is why are Apple models always at the top? Some people claim it's because there are so many individual models of Dells and HPs being sold that they will never individually claim top spots over the "limited" models of Macs.
No worries bro, it has been established now in this thread that Amazon sells Dells, HPs, and Sony PCs/laptops/whatevs. The ongoing argument is why are Apple models always at the top? Some people claim it's because there are so many individual models of Dells and HPs being sold that they will never individually claim top spots over the "limited" models of Macs.
As far as I know, Amazon doesn't release sales numbers.
The top models may be on top by a small percentage. That, and the greater numbers of PC models will both have meaning.
What we don't know, is what percentage of total computer sales there, all of the Mac models together represent.
That's very positive!
Excellent question! I assume you have the answer?
As a matter of fact I do. Since you seem to think negative and just by responding to this post in negative manner... wait a minute this is a trick!!!
Seriously what good is reading a post when it's all negative? Would you read a post, watch TV, read the news, listen to a friend that's negative all the time? If you say yes, then I feel for you and not just you but anyone boasting with negativity. My reason to read posts is to get positive( and even a little poke fun of stuff) opinions from other Mac faithfuls. If I want negative crap, well then I'll go to work where I get plenty of. So you can agree or disagree with my answer. You (not you personally) bring negative to the table, people most likely will leave full of it.
I'm not slamming you but I would like your opinion. It goes both ways.
Moreover, I would reasonably guess that corporate PC buyers replace their machines more often (e.g., every three years, or as soon as they are fully depreciated), which is another source of continuing demand.
You'd be wrong; they replace them less often. Many corporate machines still run NT 4.0.
Just think of the money people pay to have a "professional" come in a set up their home wireless network, when it can be done easly in about 15 minutes.
15 seconds on a mac
never ever again will i walow in the pit of stuff that is windows.
i will say one thing for windows IT people.. the have LOTS of patients