Sorry, my comments were not aimed at you in particular, I just happened to use your post as the reply entry point and it was in the same context.
I never mentioned nor visualized any size with the term geek, and I wasn't flaming anyone.
I simply state the obvious, MS IT is an industry built to serve a lousy OS and is self sustaining and self fulfilling as it has to be. What need for them (in the numbers they exist at any rate) would there be if MS was actually any good. They don't actually spend most of their time doing useful positive things, they fight problems caused my MS, be it bugs, poor design or total user confusion (due to lousy design).
Windows does have its foibles, but I have yet to see as complete a work environment for corprate user than Windows (although Ubuntu+OO.o is catching up really fast) Now, go back 4-7 years...make me a proposal for a corprate install that is better than Win2k desktops and servers...can you?
The reason that we have a 94% MS lock is because they had no legit competition from ~1994 to about 1999-2000 as IBM killed OS2 after Warp, Linux was too inmature and Mac OS7 was a fucking laughing stock next to windows 95...or NT4 which you would be more likely to have seen in a corprate setup
If 94% of the population jumped of a bridge, would you jump too?
Yes it is true that Apple has only 6% of the market.
But it begs the question, which 6% of the market?
Based on my observations, I would have to conclude that Apple has the top 6% and MS has the bottom 94%.
Top 6% of people that don't really know how a computer works, thats about it. Mac is like the AOL of computers. Mac only users are the kind of people that want Steve Jobs to think for them.
How long have mac users been asking for a mid level system they can actually upgrade? Steve wouldn't give you that but he gave you widgets, seems like a fair trade off. Yet the loyal mac faithful still continue to hand over their money to a company that of course can think better than they can.
Put OSX on the market for everyone to use and you will see how badly that garbage can be hacked. When something only had 5-6% of the market its not worth the time to try and hack. I can hear two hackers now "dude I just hacked someones widgets". Not really something that would earn bragging rights at your local hackers meeting.
As far as hardware what goes in my pc is the hardware I want, not what someone else feels I should have.
Lets see what else can we add, how about having to buy .mac for 99.00 to take full advantage of software you have already paid for? Thats a treat isn't it. At least when you buy software for a pc its comes fully functional without a yearly membership required.
iTunes and DRM. There isnt a Windows users that can't get around DRM is 30 seconds, yet mac users have to use iTunes because thats really the only software option you have available to you. Yep pay good money for music and movies yet again have someone else tell you how you can use them.
iTV is nice. Oh wait we have had media center computers for years now.
iPhone, yeah 700.00 for a cell phone. I don't think we really have to even comment on how well that is going to sell.
So what your telling me is the best and brightest buy into this? Sounds more like the bottom 6% to me.
Top 6% of people that don't really know how a computer works, thats about it. Mac is like the AOL of computers. Mac only users are the kind of people that want Steve Jobs to think for them.
How long have mac users been asking for a mid level system they can actually upgrade? Steve wouldn't give you that but he gave you widgets, seems like a fair trade off. Yet the loyal mac faithful still continue to hand over their money to a company that of course can think better than they can.
Put OSX on the market for everyone to use and you will see how badly that garbage can be hacked. When something only had 5-6% of the market its not worth the time to try and hack. I can hear two hackers now "dude I just hacked someones widgets". Not really something that would earn bragging rights at your local hackers meeting.
As far as hardware what goes in my pc is the hardware I want, not what someone else feels I should have.
Lets see what else can we add, how about having to buy .mac for 99.00 to take full advantage of software you have already paid for? Thats a treat isn't it. At least when you buy software for a pc its comes fully functional without a yearly membership required.
iTunes and DRM. There isnt a Windows users that can't get around DRM is 30 seconds, yet mac users have to use iTunes because thats really the only software option you have available to you. Yep pay good money for music and movies yet again have someone else tell you how you can use them.
iTV is nice. Oh wait we have had media center computers for years now.
iPhone, yeah 700.00 for a cell phone. I don't think we really have to even comment on how well that is going to sell.
So what your telling me is the best and brightest buy into this? Sounds more like the bottom 6% to me.
I am happy for you, I am really pleased you are content with your PC and Windows. I have a question? Why are you in this forum?
That reminds a lot of Henry Ford when he offered any color in a Model T, as long as it was black.
There might be a market for [a Mac minitower], but who knows if it isn't offered. Apple could be missing out on a large segment with a take or leave it policy. Why do you think Dell and HP have so many laptop models.
Apple has 3 lines: laptops, laptops in a different form factor, and a server, masquerading as a desktop/workstation. The Macbook I can live with, even with the integrated graphics, but the Mini and iMac are too basic/too much like dressed up laptop, or lack certain things like HD slots or DVD bays. Unless you love having external USB drives and AC bricks hogging space, a mid-tower makes a lot of sense in those applications. Especially since DVD burners and SATA drives are dirt cheap, plug in a couple cables, turn on the computer, boom.
I'm at the point where I would like to upgrade, and I figure that would have to spend about $1200-1500 for a new PC, since I'd have to replace nearly everything since I'm still using AGP, DDR, AMD A64 and get a C2D setup with DDR2, etc. That's my budget and all I want to spend, because I really don't need all the power in the world.
I hear some Apple apologists say deal with it, get an iMac or get a Mac Pro, when both are square pegs in a round hole for me. Other than a Macbook, I can't consider Apple as a viable option to replace anything I would get on the PC side, the OS is important, but not so important, that I would have to give up many of things I like about picking the right options for me.
If you're come from a Windows/PC background, and you build your own boxes, it's a very hard thing to give up, you get used to every option under the sun; ex. I want that case, or that mobo, or video card, and they all work, sometimes at the expensive of driver stability, but you have options, and I've probably had 6-7 BSOD's in 3 years, with 3 different XP machines. Security is where Windows sucks IMO, it's manageable, but a nuisance.
Yay! A voice of reason in the wilderness. Good post, Guinness. 8)
This is acutally the best debate ive had on this forum.
Hey, thanks.
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To me an attack ad is when someone only points out their competitions weakness or faults yet offers nothing on their end, which is what Apple is doing.
Not really. If you've watched all the ads, they do talk about the advantages of the Mac. And even in ads that primarily point out Windows' weaknesses, the advantage offered is pretty obviously that you don't have to put up with said weakness on the Mac side.
Like overly intrusive security warnings, for instance. OS X is secure without them, but Vista...
Quote:
Lets also point out that many Mac users would like some of the advantages seen by pc users, mostly on the hardware end. I appears Apple does not want their users in general to have to ability to upgrade their own systems, there control freaks.
I would agree with that, actually. It stems from an earlier era where Apple was basically selling Macs to the same group of people over and over again, and attracting very few Windows switchers. So, Apple had to maximize the revenue they got from that fixed base. One way to do that was to limit upgradability, so that users replaced their machines more often, or migrated upstream to the more expensive, but upgradable machines. \
That kind of thinking isn't that necessary any more, since Apple is now attracting a good-sized chunk of Windows switchers. In fact, that kind of thinking is actually counter-productive, because it turns potential switchers off.
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And they are starting to draw negative attention [for the ads]. I even thought they were funny at first but they haven't changed, recent polls have shown they are starting to draw negative attention to Apple.
This is old news. When the ads first appeared a year or two back, there were cries of anger from the Windows diehards, and predictions that the ads would boomerang on Apple. They haven't, and false rumors aside, Apple isn't likely to pull the campaign any time soon. Why? Because it works. And the only people that the ads make unhappy are Windows diehards (or Windows diehards posing as 'longtime Mac users', lol), who Apple knows they're not going to sell to anyway.
Buck up Bobby and get used to it, you'll be seeing a lot more of these ads in the future. 8)
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I think its great that Apple has done well with the ipod, im not anit anything when it comes to competition, its always great for the end user.
Yet somehow I get the impression that you wish the Zune owned the market instead of the iPod. Its ok, we all have our biases. But when the touchscreen iPod comes out, you can pretty much kiss what's left of the Zune's tiny marketshare bye-bye.
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Also if Apple was so sure of their OS and how virus free it could be they would release it so all system can run their OS
The problem with that is that Apple is a hardware company just as much as they are a software company. They don't want to sell you just the OS, they want to sell you the box as well. They aren't Microsoft, which is a software company mainly, though even MS is starting to move in Apple's direction regarding making its own hardware (Xbox, Zune).
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No im not the only one that knows good business, well maybe on this forum I am.
Hey, far be it from me to interfere with anyone's self-image as a legend in their own mind.
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I never want doom and gloom as ive said before the better Apple does the more innovative MS had to become and the same on the other end.
I would agree, except for the fact that Microsoft doesn't really innovate, they mainly just copy everyone else, not just Apple. They are what the market terms a 'fast follower', and I don't think they really add much to the market anymore.
At least back in the day, you could say that MS's contribution was that they added a common platform that everyone could develop for, but now you have the web for much of that.
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Id love to see Apple drop their hardware prices and take 50% of the market away from Dell, HP and others and give MS a real run but we both know thats just not going to happen.
I'd like to see Apple get more aggressive on pricing and product line too, but even if they executed perfectly, they would never get half the market. There's just a lot of inertia to stick with Windows, even if its not the best. But Apple can continue to make inroads into PC marketshare, and them doing so will hopefully keep MS and the PC makers on their toes.
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When we talk about other hardware as an example the iphone, Apple was told to take a walk by Verizon the largest wireless network because even Verizon has more stroke then Apple and the only reason Cingular agreed is an attempt to take some of Verizons business which isnt going to happen.
Yes, but if the iPhone is a huge success (and it looks like that may happen), you can bet that Verizon will come a-callin', asking for a CDMA version of the iPhone. Verizon didn't do a deal before because Jobs asked for too much. But watch as Cingular uses the iPhone to beat Verizon about the head and shoulders for the rest of '07. Pretty soon, you won't be able to get away from all the iPhone ads.
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Steve Jobs has always had one issue that has kept the company from truly being a powerhouse and that is he believe just because something has the Apple logo you should pay double. Who on Gods earth is going to pay 700.00 for a cell phone and thats how people are going to look at it no matter what anyones says.
Actually, the iPhone is $499 or $599, depending which one you get, not $700 (unless you're in Canada or Australia?).
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Steve in one breath says ipods sell because they are simple to use and that no one cares about Zunes features in the next breath he wants to sell a 700.00 cell phone with more features then anything out there. Dude needs to get stable on his meds.
Two different markets. iPod is a dedicated music player. Those you want to be simple and straightforward. iPhone is a cellphone and multifunction device. Would you buy a high-end cellphone that didn't have a camera? Internet? Email? Music? Most wouldn't. But the beauty of the iPhone is that it takes all that high-end cellphone complexity and makes it intuitive and as easy-to-use as possible.
And that's why, for the next 3-5 years, the iPhone is going to be the phone that all other cellphones are TRYING to be. 8)
I am happy for you, I am really pleased you are content with your PC and Windows. I have a question? Why are you in this forum?
I use both platforms, I also use OS2. I don't have issues with macs ive used them for over 15 years now. To me computers are tools and you use what best fills your needs.
What I do take issue with are these losers that believe MS is evil and Apple is the beat all to end all. Its stupid and I enjoy making them look stupid. I do the same to people that bash macs and have never actually used them for any length of time.
Nothings is perfect all OS systems, all third party software have their issues, all hardware has issues. To try and proclaim otherwise is foolish.
Not really. If you've watched all the ads, they do talk about the advantages of the Mac. And even in ads that primarily point out Windows' weaknesses, the advantage offered is pretty obviously that you don't have to put up with said weakness on the Mac side.
Like overly intrusive security warnings, for instance. OS X is secure without them, but Vista...
I would agree with that, actually. It stems from an earlier era where Apple was basically selling Macs to the same group of people over and over again, and attracting very few Windows switchers. So, Apple had to maximize the revenue they got from that fixed base. One way to do that was to limit upgradability, so that users replaced their machines more often, or migrated upstream to the more expensive, but upgradable machines. \
That kind of thinking isn't that necessary any more, since Apple is now attracting a good-sized chunk of Windows switchers. In fact, that kind of thinking is actually counter-productive, because it turns potential switchers off.
This is old news. When the ads first appeared a year or two back, there were cries of anger from the Windows diehards, and predictions that the ads would boomerang on Apple. They haven't, and false rumors aside, Apple isn't likely to pull the campaign any time soon. Why? Because it works. And the only people that the ads make unhappy are Windows diehards (or Windows diehards posing as 'longtime Mac users', lol), who Apple knows they're not going to sell to anyway.
Buck up Bobby and get used to it, you'll be seeing a lot more of these ads in the future. 8)
Yet somehow I get the impression that you wish the Zune owned the market instead of the iPod. Its ok, we all have our biases. But when the touchscreen iPod comes out, you can pretty much kiss what's left of the Zune's tiny marketshare bye-bye.
The problem with that is that Apple is a hardware company just as much as they are a software company. They don't want to sell you just the OS, they want to sell you the box as well. They aren't Microsoft, which is a software company mainly, though even MS is starting to move in Apple's direction regarding making its own hardware (Xbox, Zune).
Hey, far be it from me to interfere with anyone's self-image as a legend in their own mind.
I would agree, except for the fact that Microsoft doesn't really innovate, they mainly just copy everyone else, not just Apple. They are what the market terms a 'fast follower', and I don't think they really add much to the market anymore.
At least back in the day, you could say that MS's contribution was that they added a common platform that everyone could develop for, but now you have the web for much of that.
I'd like to see Apple get more aggressive on pricing and product line too, but even if they executed perfectly, they would never get half the market. There's just a lot of inertia to stick with Windows, even if its not the best. But Apple can continue to make inroads into PC marketshare, and them doing so will hopefully keep MS and the PC makers on their toes.
Yes, but if the iPhone is a huge success (and it looks like that may happen), you can bet that Verizon will come a-callin', asking for a CDMA version of the iPhone. Verizon didn't do a deal before because Jobs asked for too much. But watch as Cingular uses the iPhone to beat Verizon about the head and shoulders for the rest of '07. Pretty soon, you won't be able to get away from all the iPhone ads.
Actually, the iPhone is $499 or $599, depending which one you get, not $700 (unless you're in Canada or Australia?).
Two different markets. iPod is a dedicated music player. Those you want to be simple and straightforward. iPhone is a cellphone and multifunction device. Would you buy a high-end cellphone that didn't have a camera? Internet? Email? Music? Most wouldn't. But the beauty of the iPhone is that it takes all that high-end cellphone complexity and makes it intuitive and as easy-to-use as possible.
And that's why, for the next 3-5 years, the iPhone is going to be the phone that all other cellphones are TRYING to be. 8)
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Excellent, well thought out out post. 100% on the money
Excellent, well thought out out post. 100% on the money
I know I am replying to my own post ... but it is a post script really ...
Re Anti Mac Rants:
What baffles me is why die hard PC lovers continue to post their anti Mac and Steve Jobs rants here?
To me it is silly. For example, would a die hard Ford Taurus fan take the time to enter, say, the BMW enthusiast's Forum, and write a rant about how over priced and difficult to modify the computer control modules are and how he can build his own Ford from parts found in a junk yard for a fraction of the price? It would be stupid and pointless just as a BMW fan would be an idiot to rant in the Ford Taurus user's forum about how great his BMW is and what a pile of crap a Ford Taurus is.
I am all for free speech but this is silly. This forum is Mac enthusiast's place to argue about Macs and we have a perfect right to be critical of anything else in our own forum. Likewise the PC lovers can wax lyrically about how great building a PC from scratch and playing all day with virus apps and the like, hey it's a free World but give up intruding in our forum with the kind of rants against Macs, Steve Jobs etc. Do it in your own Forums please! No one is making you buy a Mac OK!
What baffles me is why die hard PC lovers continue to post their anti Mac and Steve Jobs rants here?
To me it is silly.
I think it stems from insecurity. They constantly hear that 'Macs are better' and 'Windows is an imitation of Apple's OS' and fear, deep down, that its true. No one likes having their buying choice invalidated... it makes you feel foolish. So they then seize upon the advantages of the Windows platform (there are some, after all), and then tromp off to the Mac forum to argue for their own personal choice against real people, essentially. It's easier than dealing with the intangible idea that Windows is second-best (or third-best, if you talk to Linux users).
Not saying that ALL diehard Windows lovers are like that (some are very cool actually), but quite a number that I've met and talked to are. \
I think it stems from insecurity. They constantly hear that 'Macs are better' and 'Windows is an imitation of Apple's OS' and fear, deep down, that its true. No one likes having their buying choice invalidated... it makes you feel foolish. So they then seize upon the advantages of the Windows platform (there are some, after all), and then tromp off to the Mac forum to argue for their own personal choice against real people, essentially. It's easier than dealing with the intangible idea that Windows is second-best (or third-best, if you talk to Linux users).
Not saying that ALL diehard Windows lovers are like that, but quite a few that I've met and talked to are.
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Well said. It is a shame the posts like that cannot be simply zapped by moderators for being off topic.
What I don't get is how trolling is considered to be a worthwhile counterpoint to fanboyism, be it percieved or real.
Oh well, it's best not to feed the trolls.
Exactly right ... all Mac fans should totally ignore them and not rise to the bait. Moderators should remove the posts! Some just cannot resist the bait and it totally messes with the thread exactly as intended.
<In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.>
Come to think of it, for an eggregious post, you can report it by clicking the red "!" in the left pane of the post. Many of the mods here are fairly hands-off, they might not notice everything, so reporting a bad post is probably the quickest way to go.
Come to think of it, for an eggregious post, you can report it by clicking the red "!" in the left pane of the post. Many of the mods here are fairly hands-off, they might not notice everything, so reporting a bad post is probably the quickest way to go.
Didn't know that... thanks for tip. All genuine Mac users note- Remove the trolls
I use both platforms, I also use OS2. I don't have issues with macs ive used them for over 15 years now. To me computers are tools and you use what best fills your needs.
What I do take issue with are these losers that believe MS is evil and Apple is the beat all to end all. Its stupid and I enjoy making them look stupid. I do the same to people that bash macs and have never actually used them for any length of time.
Nothings is perfect all OS systems, all third party software have their issues, all hardware has issues. To try and proclaim otherwise is foolish.
That's great, but that's definitely not how you were coming off in your previous posts in this thread.
Well, something's going on. In the last year or so there has been a sharp uptick of people who apparently don't have much use for Apple going out of their way to register at an Apple enthusiasts site and post about how contemptible the "Apple fan boys" are.
Just to put things in perspective, imagine if an Apple fan registered at one of the PC enthusiast sites and started posting about how deluded and blind they all were, that PCs were OK for what they did but anybody that didn't get why OS X was teh win was just sad.
Think the "non-fan boy" world of PC enthusiasts would politely consider his points? Or even show them the fairly low key dissent that has been shown here?
They would run his ass out on a rail, and we all know it.
Comments
Sorry, my comments were not aimed at you in particular, I just happened to use your post as the reply entry point and it was in the same context.
I never mentioned nor visualized any size with the term geek, and I wasn't flaming anyone.
I simply state the obvious, MS IT is an industry built to serve a lousy OS and is self sustaining and self fulfilling as it has to be. What need for them (in the numbers they exist at any rate) would there be if MS was actually any good. They don't actually spend most of their time doing useful positive things, they fight problems caused my MS, be it bugs, poor design or total user confusion (due to lousy design).
Windows does have its foibles, but I have yet to see as complete a work environment for corprate user than Windows (although Ubuntu+OO.o is catching up really fast) Now, go back 4-7 years...make me a proposal for a corprate install that is better than Win2k desktops and servers...can you?
The reason that we have a 94% MS lock is because they had no legit competition from ~1994 to about 1999-2000 as IBM killed OS2 after Warp, Linux was too inmature and Mac OS7 was a fucking laughing stock next to windows 95...or NT4 which you would be more likely to have seen in a corprate setup
If 94% of the population jumped of a bridge, would you jump too?
Yes it is true that Apple has only 6% of the market.
But it begs the question, which 6% of the market?
Based on my observations, I would have to conclude that Apple has the top 6% and MS has the bottom 94%.
Top 6% of people that don't really know how a computer works, thats about it. Mac is like the AOL of computers. Mac only users are the kind of people that want Steve Jobs to think for them.
How long have mac users been asking for a mid level system they can actually upgrade? Steve wouldn't give you that but he gave you widgets, seems like a fair trade off. Yet the loyal mac faithful still continue to hand over their money to a company that of course can think better than they can.
Put OSX on the market for everyone to use and you will see how badly that garbage can be hacked. When something only had 5-6% of the market its not worth the time to try and hack. I can hear two hackers now "dude I just hacked someones widgets". Not really something that would earn bragging rights at your local hackers meeting.
As far as hardware what goes in my pc is the hardware I want, not what someone else feels I should have.
Lets see what else can we add, how about having to buy .mac for 99.00 to take full advantage of software you have already paid for? Thats a treat isn't it. At least when you buy software for a pc its comes fully functional without a yearly membership required.
iTunes and DRM. There isnt a Windows users that can't get around DRM is 30 seconds, yet mac users have to use iTunes because thats really the only software option you have available to you. Yep pay good money for music and movies yet again have someone else tell you how you can use them.
iTV is nice. Oh wait we have had media center computers for years now.
iPhone, yeah 700.00 for a cell phone. I don't think we really have to even comment on how well that is going to sell.
So what your telling me is the best and brightest buy into this? Sounds more like the bottom 6% to me.
Bitchers.
lol, any more suggestions?
Top 6% of people that don't really know how a computer works, thats about it. Mac is like the AOL of computers. Mac only users are the kind of people that want Steve Jobs to think for them.
How long have mac users been asking for a mid level system they can actually upgrade? Steve wouldn't give you that but he gave you widgets, seems like a fair trade off. Yet the loyal mac faithful still continue to hand over their money to a company that of course can think better than they can.
Put OSX on the market for everyone to use and you will see how badly that garbage can be hacked. When something only had 5-6% of the market its not worth the time to try and hack. I can hear two hackers now "dude I just hacked someones widgets". Not really something that would earn bragging rights at your local hackers meeting.
As far as hardware what goes in my pc is the hardware I want, not what someone else feels I should have.
Lets see what else can we add, how about having to buy .mac for 99.00 to take full advantage of software you have already paid for? Thats a treat isn't it. At least when you buy software for a pc its comes fully functional without a yearly membership required.
iTunes and DRM. There isnt a Windows users that can't get around DRM is 30 seconds, yet mac users have to use iTunes because thats really the only software option you have available to you. Yep pay good money for music and movies yet again have someone else tell you how you can use them.
iTV is nice. Oh wait we have had media center computers for years now.
iPhone, yeah 700.00 for a cell phone. I don't think we really have to even comment on how well that is going to sell.
So what your telling me is the best and brightest buy into this? Sounds more like the bottom 6% to me.
I am happy for you, I am really pleased you are content with your PC and Windows. I have a question? Why are you in this forum?
snip
Wow, you've really quite outdone yourself.
No longer content to push out bullshit about Macs being somehow slower or too expensive, now you've gone off the deep-end.
That reminds a lot of Henry Ford when he offered any color in a Model T, as long as it was black.
There might be a market for [a Mac minitower], but who knows if it isn't offered. Apple could be missing out on a large segment with a take or leave it policy. Why do you think Dell and HP have so many laptop models.
Apple has 3 lines: laptops, laptops in a different form factor, and a server, masquerading as a desktop/workstation. The Macbook I can live with, even with the integrated graphics, but the Mini and iMac are too basic/too much like dressed up laptop, or lack certain things like HD slots or DVD bays. Unless you love having external USB drives and AC bricks hogging space, a mid-tower makes a lot of sense in those applications. Especially since DVD burners and SATA drives are dirt cheap, plug in a couple cables, turn on the computer, boom.
I'm at the point where I would like to upgrade, and I figure that would have to spend about $1200-1500 for a new PC, since I'd have to replace nearly everything since I'm still using AGP, DDR, AMD A64 and get a C2D setup with DDR2, etc. That's my budget and all I want to spend, because I really don't need all the power in the world.
I hear some Apple apologists say deal with it, get an iMac or get a Mac Pro, when both are square pegs in a round hole for me. Other than a Macbook, I can't consider Apple as a viable option to replace anything I would get on the PC side, the OS is important, but not so important, that I would have to give up many of things I like about picking the right options for me.
If you're come from a Windows/PC background, and you build your own boxes, it's a very hard thing to give up, you get used to every option under the sun; ex. I want that case, or that mobo, or video card, and they all work, sometimes at the expensive of driver stability, but you have options, and I've probably had 6-7 BSOD's in 3 years, with 3 different XP machines. Security is where Windows sucks IMO, it's manageable, but a nuisance.
Yay! A voice of reason in the wilderness. Good post, Guinness. 8)
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Wow, you've really quite outdone yourself.
No longer content to push out bullshit about Macs being somehow slower or too expensive, now you've gone off the deep-end.
Completely off ... foam at mouth I bet ... lol
This is acutally the best debate ive had on this forum.
Hey, thanks.
To me an attack ad is when someone only points out their competitions weakness or faults yet offers nothing on their end, which is what Apple is doing.
Not really. If you've watched all the ads, they do talk about the advantages of the Mac. And even in ads that primarily point out Windows' weaknesses, the advantage offered is pretty obviously that you don't have to put up with said weakness on the Mac side.
Like overly intrusive security warnings, for instance. OS X is secure without them, but Vista...
Lets also point out that many Mac users would like some of the advantages seen by pc users, mostly on the hardware end. I appears Apple does not want their users in general to have to ability to upgrade their own systems, there control freaks.
I would agree with that, actually. It stems from an earlier era where Apple was basically selling Macs to the same group of people over and over again, and attracting very few Windows switchers. So, Apple had to maximize the revenue they got from that fixed base. One way to do that was to limit upgradability, so that users replaced their machines more often, or migrated upstream to the more expensive, but upgradable machines.
That kind of thinking isn't that necessary any more, since Apple is now attracting a good-sized chunk of Windows switchers. In fact, that kind of thinking is actually counter-productive, because it turns potential switchers off.
And they are starting to draw negative attention [for the ads]. I even thought they were funny at first but they haven't changed, recent polls have shown they are starting to draw negative attention to Apple.
This is old news. When the ads first appeared a year or two back, there were cries of anger from the Windows diehards, and predictions that the ads would boomerang on Apple. They haven't, and false rumors aside, Apple isn't likely to pull the campaign any time soon. Why? Because it works. And the only people that the ads make unhappy are Windows diehards (or Windows diehards posing as 'longtime Mac users', lol), who Apple knows they're not going to sell to anyway.
Buck up Bobby and get used to it, you'll be seeing a lot more of these ads in the future. 8)
I think its great that Apple has done well with the ipod, im not anit anything when it comes to competition, its always great for the end user.
Yet somehow I get the impression that you wish the Zune owned the market instead of the iPod.
Also if Apple was so sure of their OS and how virus free it could be they would release it so all system can run their OS
The problem with that is that Apple is a hardware company just as much as they are a software company. They don't want to sell you just the OS, they want to sell you the box as well. They aren't Microsoft, which is a software company mainly, though even MS is starting to move in Apple's direction regarding making its own hardware (Xbox, Zune).
No im not the only one that knows good business, well maybe on this forum I am.
Hey, far be it from me to interfere with anyone's self-image as a legend in their own mind.
I never want doom and gloom as ive said before the better Apple does the more innovative MS had to become and the same on the other end.
I would agree, except for the fact that Microsoft doesn't really innovate, they mainly just copy everyone else, not just Apple. They are what the market terms a 'fast follower', and I don't think they really add much to the market anymore.
At least back in the day, you could say that MS's contribution was that they added a common platform that everyone could develop for, but now you have the web for much of that.
Id love to see Apple drop their hardware prices and take 50% of the market away from Dell, HP and others and give MS a real run but we both know thats just not going to happen.
I'd like to see Apple get more aggressive on pricing and product line too, but even if they executed perfectly, they would never get half the market. There's just a lot of inertia to stick with Windows, even if its not the best. But Apple can continue to make inroads into PC marketshare, and them doing so will hopefully keep MS and the PC makers on their toes.
When we talk about other hardware as an example the iphone, Apple was told to take a walk by Verizon the largest wireless network because even Verizon has more stroke then Apple and the only reason Cingular agreed is an attempt to take some of Verizons business which isnt going to happen.
Yes, but if the iPhone is a huge success (and it looks like that may happen), you can bet that Verizon will come a-callin', asking for a CDMA version of the iPhone. Verizon didn't do a deal before because Jobs asked for too much. But watch as Cingular uses the iPhone to beat Verizon about the head and shoulders for the rest of '07. Pretty soon, you won't be able to get away from all the iPhone ads.
Steve Jobs has always had one issue that has kept the company from truly being a powerhouse and that is he believe just because something has the Apple logo you should pay double. Who on Gods earth is going to pay 700.00 for a cell phone and thats how people are going to look at it no matter what anyones says.
Actually, the iPhone is $499 or $599, depending which one you get, not $700 (unless you're in Canada or Australia?).
Steve in one breath says ipods sell because they are simple to use and that no one cares about Zunes features in the next breath he wants to sell a 700.00 cell phone with more features then anything out there. Dude needs to get stable on his meds.
Two different markets. iPod is a dedicated music player. Those you want to be simple and straightforward. iPhone is a cellphone and multifunction device. Would you buy a high-end cellphone that didn't have a camera? Internet? Email? Music? Most wouldn't. But the beauty of the iPhone is that it takes all that high-end cellphone complexity and makes it intuitive and as easy-to-use as possible.
And that's why, for the next 3-5 years, the iPhone is going to be the phone that all other cellphones are TRYING to be. 8)
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I am happy for you, I am really pleased you are content with your PC and Windows. I have a question? Why are you in this forum?
I use both platforms, I also use OS2. I don't have issues with macs ive used them for over 15 years now. To me computers are tools and you use what best fills your needs.
What I do take issue with are these losers that believe MS is evil and Apple is the beat all to end all. Its stupid and I enjoy making them look stupid. I do the same to people that bash macs and have never actually used them for any length of time.
Nothings is perfect all OS systems, all third party software have their issues, all hardware has issues. To try and proclaim otherwise is foolish.
Hey, thanks.
Not really. If you've watched all the ads, they do talk about the advantages of the Mac. And even in ads that primarily point out Windows' weaknesses, the advantage offered is pretty obviously that you don't have to put up with said weakness on the Mac side.
Like overly intrusive security warnings, for instance. OS X is secure without them, but Vista...
I would agree with that, actually. It stems from an earlier era where Apple was basically selling Macs to the same group of people over and over again, and attracting very few Windows switchers. So, Apple had to maximize the revenue they got from that fixed base. One way to do that was to limit upgradability, so that users replaced their machines more often, or migrated upstream to the more expensive, but upgradable machines.
That kind of thinking isn't that necessary any more, since Apple is now attracting a good-sized chunk of Windows switchers. In fact, that kind of thinking is actually counter-productive, because it turns potential switchers off.
This is old news. When the ads first appeared a year or two back, there were cries of anger from the Windows diehards, and predictions that the ads would boomerang on Apple. They haven't, and false rumors aside, Apple isn't likely to pull the campaign any time soon. Why? Because it works. And the only people that the ads make unhappy are Windows diehards (or Windows diehards posing as 'longtime Mac users', lol), who Apple knows they're not going to sell to anyway.
Buck up Bobby and get used to it, you'll be seeing a lot more of these ads in the future. 8)
Yet somehow I get the impression that you wish the Zune owned the market instead of the iPod.
The problem with that is that Apple is a hardware company just as much as they are a software company. They don't want to sell you just the OS, they want to sell you the box as well. They aren't Microsoft, which is a software company mainly, though even MS is starting to move in Apple's direction regarding making its own hardware (Xbox, Zune).
Hey, far be it from me to interfere with anyone's self-image as a legend in their own mind.
I would agree, except for the fact that Microsoft doesn't really innovate, they mainly just copy everyone else, not just Apple. They are what the market terms a 'fast follower', and I don't think they really add much to the market anymore.
At least back in the day, you could say that MS's contribution was that they added a common platform that everyone could develop for, but now you have the web for much of that.
I'd like to see Apple get more aggressive on pricing and product line too, but even if they executed perfectly, they would never get half the market. There's just a lot of inertia to stick with Windows, even if its not the best. But Apple can continue to make inroads into PC marketshare, and them doing so will hopefully keep MS and the PC makers on their toes.
Yes, but if the iPhone is a huge success (and it looks like that may happen), you can bet that Verizon will come a-callin', asking for a CDMA version of the iPhone. Verizon didn't do a deal before because Jobs asked for too much. But watch as Cingular uses the iPhone to beat Verizon about the head and shoulders for the rest of '07. Pretty soon, you won't be able to get away from all the iPhone ads.
Actually, the iPhone is $499 or $599, depending which one you get, not $700 (unless you're in Canada or Australia?).
Two different markets. iPod is a dedicated music player. Those you want to be simple and straightforward. iPhone is a cellphone and multifunction device. Would you buy a high-end cellphone that didn't have a camera? Internet? Email? Music? Most wouldn't. But the beauty of the iPhone is that it takes all that high-end cellphone complexity and makes it intuitive and as easy-to-use as possible.
And that's why, for the next 3-5 years, the iPhone is going to be the phone that all other cellphones are TRYING to be. 8)
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Excellent, well thought out out post. 100% on the money
Excellent, well thought out out post. 100% on the money
I know I am replying to my own post ... but it is a post script really ...
Re Anti Mac Rants:
What baffles me is why die hard PC lovers continue to post their anti Mac and Steve Jobs rants here?
To me it is silly. For example, would a die hard Ford Taurus fan take the time to enter, say, the BMW enthusiast's Forum, and write a rant about how over priced and difficult to modify the computer control modules are and how he can build his own Ford from parts found in a junk yard for a fraction of the price? It would be stupid and pointless just as a BMW fan would be an idiot to rant in the Ford Taurus user's forum about how great his BMW is and what a pile of crap a Ford Taurus is.
I am all for free speech but this is silly. This forum is Mac enthusiast's place to argue about Macs and we have a perfect right to be critical of anything else in our own forum. Likewise the PC lovers can wax lyrically about how great building a PC from scratch and playing all day with virus apps and the like, hey it's a free World but give up intruding in our forum with the kind of rants against Macs, Steve Jobs etc. Do it in your own Forums please! No one is making you buy a Mac OK!
Re Anti Mac Rants:
What baffles me is why die hard PC lovers continue to post their anti Mac and Steve Jobs rants here?
To me it is silly.
I think it stems from insecurity. They constantly hear that 'Macs are better' and 'Windows is an imitation of Apple's OS' and fear, deep down, that its true. No one likes having their buying choice invalidated... it makes you feel foolish. So they then seize upon the advantages of the Windows platform (there are some, after all), and then tromp off to the Mac forum to argue for their own personal choice against real people, essentially. It's easier than dealing with the intangible idea that Windows is second-best (or third-best, if you talk to Linux users).
Not saying that ALL diehard Windows lovers are like that (some are very cool actually), but quite a number that I've met and talked to are.
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I think it stems from insecurity. They constantly hear that 'Macs are better' and 'Windows is an imitation of Apple's OS' and fear, deep down, that its true. No one likes having their buying choice invalidated... it makes you feel foolish. So they then seize upon the advantages of the Windows platform (there are some, after all), and then tromp off to the Mac forum to argue for their own personal choice against real people, essentially. It's easier than dealing with the intangible idea that Windows is second-best (or third-best, if you talk to Linux users).
Not saying that ALL diehard Windows lovers are like that, but quite a few that I've met and talked to are.
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Well said. It is a shame the posts like that cannot be simply zapped by moderators for being off topic.
Oh well, it's best not to feed the trolls.
What I don't get is how trolling is considered to be a worthwhile counterpoint to fanboyism, be it percieved or real.
Oh well, it's best not to feed the trolls.
Exactly right ... all Mac fans should totally ignore them and not rise to the bait. Moderators should remove the posts! Some just cannot resist the bait and it totally messes with the thread exactly as intended.
<In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.>
Come to think of it, for an eggregious post, you can report it by clicking the red "!" in the left pane of the post. Many of the mods here are fairly hands-off, they might not notice everything, so reporting a bad post is probably the quickest way to go.
Didn't know that... thanks for tip. All genuine Mac users note- Remove the trolls
I use both platforms, I also use OS2. I don't have issues with macs ive used them for over 15 years now. To me computers are tools and you use what best fills your needs.
What I do take issue with are these losers that believe MS is evil and Apple is the beat all to end all. Its stupid and I enjoy making them look stupid. I do the same to people that bash macs and have never actually used them for any length of time.
Nothings is perfect all OS systems, all third party software have their issues, all hardware has issues. To try and proclaim otherwise is foolish.
That's great, but that's definitely not how you were coming off in your previous posts in this thread.
Excellent, well thought out out post. 100% on the money
Thanks very much. 8)
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Just to put things in perspective, imagine if an Apple fan registered at one of the PC enthusiast sites and started posting about how deluded and blind they all were, that PCs were OK for what they did but anybody that didn't get why OS X was teh win was just sad.
Think the "non-fan boy" world of PC enthusiasts would politely consider his points? Or even show them the fairly low key dissent that has been shown here?
They would run his ass out on a rail, and we all know it.
Fan boy is as fan boy does.